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Comments
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I mean...it depends on a lot of things. Camping for camping's sake is generally bad. If you have a 3 gen on on side of Ormond and 1 gen all the way on the other side, you're kind of throwing the game against competent survivors if you don't proxy that hook in the 3 gen.
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Unfortunately, camping is part of the game, even if it does suck. People who camp aren't breaking any rules, it's just annoying.
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do you know what holding the game hostage is
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been over this time and time again .... it was implemented exactly what your asking oh yeah wait for it .... survivors abused it running round the hook lol. so it was removed.
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Camping=hostage for 2 minutes or how much does take to die on first hook. Stop talking stupid things. Camping means waste of time with boring killer. Boring for the hooked one, boring for the others survivors, because doing gens is boring, and ALSO boring for killer. Don't tell me that staying there like a dog is fun for killer.
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If they run around the hook and the timer doesn't stop while the killer is chasing them then that wouldn't be a problem, unless I'm missing something?
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Zzzz
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There will always be a complaint about campers, i can get it, but what about survivors using exploits like when they are in a hurt state , you hit them when they drop a pallet but as killer you get stunned and the survivor keeps up, and that i'm experiencing more then once, i chased a survivor for 5 minutes and it happend 3 times...i had to hit him/her 5 times before i finally could pick it up...
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You say camping like its a one-size fits all statement, there are various sorts of camping that vary in how effective they are.
Type 1 is the traditional camp, where the killer just chills at the hook, generally this is a bad strategy for the killer, but it pays off if the survivors try to save the hooked person instead of working on generators and leaving.
Type 2 is the Proxy Camp. Where the killer is near enough to the hook so that they can threaten someone coming in for the unhook. Some killers can proxy camp from a long range, like Hag or Huntress, so this is a bit more general.
Type 3 is the strategic camp. This is where there is some external reason for camping. Such as: there are only 10 seconds until they die, or this is the Endgame Collapse, a survivor is looping the killer near the hook, or the killer hooked the survivor in the middle of a 3 gen.
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You misubderstand me, or perhaps I haven't been clear I'm not saying that there aren't good times to use camping. Far from it I'm saying camping is a very good strategy. That'd why it's being used so much. I just want to remove camping as a viable strategy and you dont.
Edit although I can see another exception for after the collapse starts too, makes sense
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I never said camping was fun just that the game isn't being hold hostage. If you really can't stand waiting 2 minutes you can always attempt to unhook yourself and don't hit the struggle skillchecks.
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it did stop thats the point .... lol. it was implemented and removed because they abused it making the killer powerless to do anything because no hook regression
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Take the example of hooking someone in the middle of a 3 gen, what I refer to as a type 3 camp. The killer should not move away from the 3 gen they have left, otherwise they will lose the game. Since they will remain relatively near the hooked person as they patrol the gens, they are camping by most definitions. But should they be punished for defending the generators?
I say that camping is more complex than you make it out to be, and punishing a type 3 camp like you would a type 1 camp makes no sense.
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Camping is only unfair for bad survivors, against two killers with insta-downs, or new survivors who do not have access to BT/DS.
There is not a single thing anyone will ever do to prevent people from camping or tunneling. It's going to happen even if you punished them in more harsh ways. I'm also 100% against punishing camping because I do not think survivors should not be punished by killers who rarely camp because said survivors are playing greedy and I want to force a health state drop. Survivors do not need more things for free.
The whole "if you're good you don't need to tunnel/camp" is the exact argument you'd expect from someone who has never played killer against good survivors or ignores how that is as if I said "You don't need Exhaustion perks if you're good"
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So the problem is that it doesn't matter how good or bad the killer is, becuase it's incredibly boring it is to be camped which is why camping needs to be addressed since there is nothing that can be done while being camped.
Also to address your point about not punishing the "good" killers for the actions of the "bad" killers, that's basically why most things get fixed. (Applys to bad survivors too)
Edit or just life in general, like speed limits or things like that
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The problem there is "in chase" is easy to cheese with the current chase system. To be in chase you need to be within a certain range, have LOS, and the survivor needs to be running. Then on top of that chase is really easy/quick to break. Just dropping a pallet and the killer breaking it will end chase a lot of the time for example.
So survivors could just stay out the chase range or duck in and out of LOS blockers but still be pressuring the killer with a potential hook save, thus abusing the system in a similar way as before, just from a little further away.
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I'm pretty sure chases are a little harder to break for more than a second or two using those methods, i know my chases with survivors don't end the when they run behind an obstacles, so long as I keep chasing then I mean, which would mean that the timer would be only extended by a few seconds from the pallets at worst and there aren't going to be more than a couple pallets right next to the hook
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They don't always end immediately, there's other factors like distance and where the killers camera is facing that determine how long before the chase is lost, pallets are just an easy example of how it can be lost very quickly. If they just run behind a rock and you follow them the chase won't end.
That still leaves the issue of being out of chase range to begin with or just not running till the killer heads your way but still pressuring the hook. Either they leave to follow you potentially giving a free save to a teammate and also giving you a head start in that new chase, or they stay and the hook timer is paused which is free gen time for others.
Its a little better than the old system, but its not good imo. I don't think there can be a solution by punishing the killer as those just open the door for abuse or the killer getting punished for what could be the right play at the time thus putting them in a lose-lose situation. I have yet to see a suggestion without one or both of these problems.
Solving camping would probably require fundamental changes in the core gameplay systems to make defending hooks not something the killer needs to do anymore. Not that I'm against that but its probably not happening.
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When killers camp I work on gens and totems. Yes it's difficult to get points for unhooking a teammate but when a killer camps, survivors should be working on the objective. I am a survivor main not killer. Sometimes you just have to say it is what it is.
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Sadly is the only way, gen rush is the same thing so.
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Hate to break it to you but forcing the killer to leave is the entire point of addressing camping. And you can never fix it in a way that camping isn't the "right play" (I'm assuming you mean right as in good for the killer as an effective way to win) because the whole point is to make it so the killer is not able to use camping as an effective strategy because if it's not effective they will stop doing it.
Also I kinda like how some killers refer to a Survivor stopping what there doing and presenting themselves like a steak on a plate as somehow not to the killers advantage becuase they have to go chase them to down them instead of continuing to camp
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There's no need to force the killer to leave the hook. The killer has every right to defend the hook from unhooks.
Survivors just need to do gens and attempt to force the killer to leave the hook. If they don't, then that is still okay.
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Yes I know you don't want to lose your camping becuase you like doing it.
If it makes you feel better this wouldn't force killers to stop camping, the idea is to stop incentivising killers from camping making camping significantly less prevelent.
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I don't like this bullshit that survivors want to force killers to have to play in a way that survivors want them to play.
I'm sure you wouldn't like it if killers started suggesting that gens get blocked if survivors worked on them for longer than 30 seconds at a time to prevent gens from getting done too fast.
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Yah there are perks that do that. And they can run to gens to scare them off,
But to address your question I don't have a problem with killers asking for changes to things that are terrible to play with.
For example instant keys. As a Survivor it's great for me but I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for it to be changed so that keys take time to open. I also don't have a problem with the devs doing that.
See I can undwrstand how something is bad overall even though I use it for an advantage. Unfortunately as a killer main you can't seem to understand how incredibly boring it is to be stuck on a hook unable to do anything till your slowly die off and go look for a new match.
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I play both sides and there is absolutely nothing wrong with camping. I do know that it sucks to be stuck on a hook til you die, but that's just how the game sometime.
There's no good reason to take the option to camp a hook from the killer, because it would make survivors (their opponent they are designed to kill) feel better.
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The good reason is so that you don't get that sucks to be stuck on hook till you die that you mentioned. So the game isn't incredibly boring for 20 percent of the players in a match becuase they spend it unable to play.
I mean your argument is basically the same stupid thing survivor mains said about fixing Ds. There is no good reason to take away the option to abuse ds becuase it will make killers (their opponent who is trying to kill them) feel better
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Camping is a trash way to play, tunneling aswell but SBMM worked pretty well matching high MMR killer with high MMR survivors making it impossible to win a game as a killer.
Check by yourself, no one is streaming killer anymore on Twitch and in less than a month there won't be any killer left at high mmr.
When i play survivor, even in soloQ i'm going out 70% of the time now.
Killers are loosing every trials in 1 chase only lol.
So as a survivor, my experience has improved, but when i play killer, omg it is terrible. It's not about playing sweaty, it's literally impossible to win if you don't play a killer that can totally deny looping (PH/Nurse for exemple).
Blight went from S tier to garbage, way too weak at pallet looping.
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Getting the killer to leave in a way that doesn't overly benefit the survivors and put the killer is a losing position no matter what is the issue. With the purposed system the killer is in a lose-lose. You want to remove camping from the killer, but what are you giving them to compensate for the loss of being able to use it? So far nothing, just punishing them.
You need to make the other action way more beneficial and essentially remove camping from having any potential benefit, something I don't believe is possible with the way DBD is fundamentally designed, hence needing to make a much larger change.
You have to chase 1 survivor, they have 2 other teammates. In your system the position the killer is in is basically "hey take this chase in the area I want with me having a head start, or stay there and we get free gen time." Its not a "steak on a plate". It a chase you don't take because they have too much distance or are next to a strong area, but you also can't not take it or they have all the time to do gens since the person on hook will essentially never die.
Hook pressure is important, you can't just give it up for free. But in this system you'd have no choice.
This also puts the hooked survivor in a situation where they could be camped indefinitely or until the game ends. You think camping is rough now imagine getting camped for 5 gens + gates. The killer potentially doesn't have a winning option and the survivor on hook is camped for longer. Pausing the timer is not the solution, we need a different one.
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Oh and to be clear it's not fun for the other survivors either when the killer just sits there but it's no where near as bad as for the one on the hook
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Camping is the reason why gen speeds remain and will always remain the way they are.
Survivors have opted to bring perks and builds which allow the breathing room necessary to be able to complete their objective while one person dies.
As I keep pointing out, fundamental parts of this game not being looked at or updated, are the root cause of the game feeling like a sweat show.
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If you think other tweaks need to be made if the killers start loosing to much that's not really a problem the game is constantly buffing and nerfing everyone so remove camping and continue to adjust as needed. Although to hear a large number of killer mains camping isn't very good and only trash killers use it so if they are right then no need to adjust very much anyway. (Unless they are lieing about how good camping is)
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Part of the problem is that survivors can induce camping themselves as well and this system doesn't just punish campers, it punished killers for even being near the hook to defend it since survivors can work around the rules and it works in the survivors favor.
You can't block the survivors from going near the hook, they need to get the save. You also can't block the killer in the event he needs to defend it.
Again, pausing the timer is not a system I believe can be made to work without very large changes and the introduction of new mechanics or reworking existing ones around it.
It was tried, it failed horribly, and slapping on "in chase" isn't going to fix the issues.
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Camping sucks for both sides, believe it or not. As a killer main, I'd rather go find someone else and begin a chase, its more interactive and makes the game more fun.
However, if camping prevents me from losing and helps me to win, you best believe I'm going to do it. There's a difference between playing ''nice'' and playing dumb. In fact, just now I had a match where I hooked a survivor (on their second stage) next to a generator which was 80% done.
The survivors were highly efficient, good at loops and had 2 generators left, including this 80%, so effectively, I had less than one generator left before the gates powered up and I didn't have a kill yet. So letting the survivors rescue, heal and complete the gen will lose me the game, so I camped to prevent this. Forcing a trade each time they tried to rescue because I'm billy who can one-shot the rescuer, hooking them on the same hook and camp them with the generator, ensuring it went back to 0% and pressuring the survivors.
Of course they all complained in the post-game chat, calling me unskilled whilst I'm a billy with 2 meme perks who played fair until they rushed the gens, versus 4 survivors with meta perks, brand new parts, swf, etc.
I think camping is fine if its beneficial or greatly detrimental to not do so. In my case, its valid. If I was at 5 generators, its invalid.
Just my 2 cence.
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@wxnickxw Also another fundamental thing that is difficult is how big would the "camp" radius be? MYC is 32 meters and that's considered proxy camping by some. 32 isn't big enough, so how much of the map are you going to section off that the killer just isn't allowed in or the timer pauses? What about the gens in that area? What about the loops in that area?
If you make it bigger the killer basically can't play in a whole area/side of the map, you make it smaller and the killer can just sit close enough to the hook where the system doesn't matter.
This will happen every single time they hook someone.
Again, I don't think this system can work at all, there's too many issues.
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There is LITERALLY, already an incentive for killers to not camp. It is called LOSING THE GAME. If YOU as a survivor are not doing gens and punishing the killer for camping the hook for his one kill a game, then YOU are the reason that the killer is rewarded for his bad play.
Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean the game should change to accommodate YOU.
I'm just gonna tell it to you straight. If your teammate is hooked and facecamped from hook to death, and you didn't do two gens in that time. It is YOUR fault. Every decent survivor in this game is FULLY capable of running a killer for AT LEAST one gen in the early game. Which means by the time the killer gets first down, moves to hook, hooks, and stands there. The team should have ALREADY done at least 2 gens. 3 are left. He facecamps, he auto loses and you all survive. 3 survive. One died. If this is not happening it is because YOU are messing up. YOU are the reason you are losing. Stop blaming facecamping killers for you not understanding how to counter them. Sit on a generator. Open the exit gate and LEAVE. If you're actually good at the game your mmr will take you past the killers who think facecamping the hook the entire time is a good strategy.
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This would be fine and dandy if every person's definition of "losing" was the same in this game. "Losing" is not enough to stop someone from face camping you. If someone is face camping, they don't care if three people escape unless they're new and don't understand the point of the game, and even then that's being really generous. It's intentional, and it's literally just trolling.
Obviously there are times when you need to guard the hook because you're behind, or because it's crucial to win the game, but you can't sit here and say that face camping is somehow the player's fault. It's the killers conscious decision to stand in front of the hooked survivor and not play the game. It's an attitude problem, and it's become increasingly prevalent here in the past few days.
As for the "do gens and leave" part, unless you're swfing your team is not going to decide to leave the guy to die. Not only are people human and empathize with a dude being hard camped at four gens, but you can't convey that strategy to your team when you're soloing. We're also assuming that the person on hook isn't killing themselves (because who can really blame them?) and giving the team even less time to get the game over with and dip out.
Camping is not a fun strategy, only doing gens and leaving isn't a fun strategy, and obtuseness to how this can ruin everyone's game is a little problematic. I completely agree that doing gens and leaving is the optimal play to just gtfo and queue up again, but it's not always that simple or easy and I wonder if you really understand that.
Face camping is not an efficient strategy when all survivors are sitting on gens, but very rarely is an average pub team (which makes up the majority of matches) going to mutually decide on that. In fact, I'm sure someone with BT/DS will think they can save them, only to just be traded and never get to use DS because they don't get off the hook.
TL;DR Face camping isn't survivors' fault, it ruins the game for everyone (mainly the victim on hook), and perks don't save you from it. It's less of a strategy and more of an attitude problem.
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Camping is justified in certain situations.
I play both sides so I fully understand if from both perspectives,
Sometimes as killer I gotta do it here and there to help with pressure or secure a kill and as survivor I get face camped for running the killer and they throw the game but I don't get mad cause I understand it.
However, there are circumstances that camping and tunnelling is just beyond abused and quite frankly it's killers just wanting to play like #########.
That I don't get, it's really a dick move imo.
But seriously people have to learn to accept these things and move on. Go on to the next game and if it happens often or you can't learn to just not get bothered then turn the game off.
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Does anyone know why when the devs made pyramid head they made it so if he tries to camp the cages they respawn with the survivor in a new location?
Part of me feels like it was an acknowledgement that they know in general**** camping is crap for all players and the killer (i know sometimes its unavoidable or strategic in the late game or at 3 gen etc).
Fortunately camping isnt in every game, if it was the game would simply die off cuz for most players it would be a 25% chance of queueing into a dead game where you sit on a hook for 2 minutes.
I think something like pyramids cages spawning to a new location if camping happens would work but it would have to be more complex so that if its at 1 gen left or 2 gens left the time for the hook to respawn location either was much longer than early game or didnt happen at all for example so that if theres a 3 gen and a survivor is hooked there they dont get punished for that.
Its just an idea, but things that make gameplay/interaction non existant for almost all the players should be addressed and buffs put in place if needs be
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I think the idea of the cages moving was partly to keep PH from camping them, but also because caging has a lot of advantages so to compensate you don't get to choose where you place them. It makes it easier to save the survivor then, in turn for a quick an easy hook stage.
As for your idea, I don't oppose it at all. I'd be willing to try that out.
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I believe the reason for Pyramid Head not being able to camp was because perks like DS and BT didn't proc on survivors who were caged, so there was 0 ways to get a survivor out if Pyramid Head found the cage and just sat around it.
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That's not holding the game hostage because you will eventually die and be able to move on to the next game.
There is a perk for that by the way, called "Borrowed Time" which is a teachable perk for William "Bill" Overbeck.
Camping and tunnelling, toxic or not, is not reportable and is a part of the game.
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The cages also only allow rescue from the front unlike hooks where survivors can unhook in a cone around the front. So PH could stand in front of a cage and completely prevent an rescue as well.
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To be fair though PH can camp a hook the same and just hold his power aimed at the hook and you cant do much without BT for the hooked survivor
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If they camp just do gens. Camping is a guaranteed loss for them if you just pop three or four gens while they just stand there. We embarrassed a Leatherface who thought his camping with NoED would get him a single kill.
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The funny thing is, with this guy's broad definition of camping then the play I made the other day made me a bad killer.
To better explain, I was in Coldwind. Survivors were rushing gens like crazy, having them popping off left and right. Unfortunately for them they gave me a perfect 3-gen situation where I could stand in the center of all three gens and have perfect LOS of them all, plus the two outer gens had hooks next them and I had a hook in the center next to where I stood. Well I caught one of the survivors and stuck them on the center hook right next where I could keep an eye on everything. They'd try to rush hook, and I'd trade out hooks with the survivors, (since I was playing Bubba, I could just down them right as they unhooked).
So according to the survivor's rule book, I should've pissed off and gave up the 3-gen that they ended up putting themselves in to begin with right? I should've just been like "Nah, here have the free unhook and pick the gen you want to win with. I'll be at the other side of the map, throwing a dance party in the killer shack." Is that right? So should I consider myself bad killer for capitalizing off of the survivors mistake of not paying attention on gen placement as they rushed through popping them all? Yeah no no, you're right. F*** me for wanting to win. I'll just give the match to the survivors next time.
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Funny most if the killers seem to admit how good camping is as a strategy, I realize you may think it's poor and doesn't result in wins, but if that's the case why do you think so many killers do it?
If it's not helping them win why do it? It's nit fun for the killer either or do you think they just do it to ruin someone else's fun?
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If something is designed poorly why not raise the issue and try and fix it? I mean i understand why plenty of killer mains try and derail the convo, because they have an interest in keeping camping as an easy win.
I'm curious do you take the same stance with other problems, for example should killers not mention unintended abuses or exploits, and just go on to the next game too?
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Why do they do it? Because the vast majority of players in this game, are not good at the game. They are, likely, casual players. But you are physically incapable of discerning the difference in the argument that "some camping can be good" and "camping is good"
Is facecamping from the moment you hook good? No. It loses you the game. Is patrolling back to the hook 20-30 seconds after you've hooked someone and they still haven't been rescued good? Hell yes it can be. You can get a free chase from someone and advance a hook state simply because survivors were greedy and stuck gens instead of rescuing.
No. Killers aren't "admitting that camping is good as a strategy." They're telling you that on occasion it can be beneficial to return to the hook if survivors have waited forever to rescue someone. You treat every single form of "camping" as the same as facecamping a survivor from the moment they're hooked. Blanket statements don't work, and you're the prime example as why. If I said "Milk is good for you." But you thought all milk was drunk a gallon at a time, you'd say no it isn't. I'd say don't drink a gallon at a time.
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I can tell the difference between camping is an effective strategy to win and its not an effective strategy. Just becuase it's effective doesn't mean there aren't other strategies available, just that they are much harder to do.
You seem to have trouble with me pointing out that it's effective and that many if not most killers seem to be willing to admit this. I'm not sure why you seem so intent on claiming it's absolute trash for killers to camp while then turning around and saying well except in the instances where I personally camp then it's not trash it's brilliant strategy. It doesn't matter if you think camping is somehow only effective when you do it, becuase it's effective other times killers do it...you k on becuase that's why they do it on the first place
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