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killers , i understand the game balance makes you play like a scumbag
but , what balance , amirite ? an atrocious amount of perks that arent feasible to use , map design that doesn't favor all killers but , what , 3 or 4 ? but almost all maps favor survivor equally (hawkins has nasty loops utilizing the stairs , so does ''the game'' with the double pallet room on the second floor & safe pallets , midwhich has loop-able pallets and a jungle gym vault that forces killers to break walls & leads to another loop-able pallet ; midwhich is only bad to survivors that skipped class in gradeschool , so they dont know what a classroom is . running in straight lines is all they know - so stop the cap ) the only bad map for survivors is RPD - and of course its bad for killer too . so many maps survivors dislike that have so many loop-able pallets , like how is lerys hated when theres multiple ways to escape every room and most of them have pallets ? because the killer eventually gets you as they should ? LMAO , dont worry ; its only 1 hook , you get to kickback & relax while the last gen is about to pop .
wouldnt be complaining if ranked and sbmm wasn't forced on everyone .
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Yeah, the Lery's thing I will never understand. That is my favorite map as a survivor because with one million vaults, even I can run a killer for multiple gens. Hate it as a killer. Hate!
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Is It really a scumbag move if you camp and tunne? If they exploit it somehow then yeah it is but if they just camp and tunnel normally is it a scumbag move?
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Ghostface is decent on Lery's, so is trapper I find.
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Players who play like scumbags decide to play like that. They are not forced to do so.
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Huh. I wonder what spurs the Survivors to play scummy.
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RPD actually isn't bad for survivors. Most of the survivor players just haven't taken the effort to learn the map. It has a few super ######### pallets, a lot of fair pallets, about 5 strong pallets, 5 god pallets and a god loop with a window and a pallet. Plus it's fricking huge.
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what
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And how are Killers playing like scumbags exactly?
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Choosing to hard tunnel and camp no matter the circumstances. Essentially going out of you way to not allow someone to get points/play the game so you can win at some casual party game most killers seemed to be terrified of losing at. Nobody is saying it isn't legit.
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MMR treats it as competitive, not casual.
If it was a casual party game, Survivors wouldn't be playing the equivalent of "scumbags" either as you call it.
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When the game objective is to win which is the general thing anyones want to do in a multiplayer game. Making a variety of competitive approaches to victory is importamt. Dbd dosent have that. Im not saying the game needs to be only competitive but it is jarring how the weaker killers have only one real strategy to win.
A large majority of People play multiplayer games with the objective of winning. So I ask you how are you going to win without engaging with the tactics listed above on badly designed maps like rpd, hawkins, etc.
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You can put MMR on anything, its existence doesn't make the game competitive. It's an asymmetrical, openly unbalanced game that completely breaks at the highest level. No competitive game becomes a clown fiesta when the top of the top are brought to play. It's casual, people want it to be competitive so they feel better about themselves stomping the weaker opponent, and then complain about imbalances when they don't.
What are survivors doing that's scummy? Please do not say being toxic. That's everywhere. Would you say Gens before frens? Maybe, but that's something you can pretty easily counter. Perk abuse? Such as DS, UB, BT, etc? Well, these are also made to counter killers when they decide to be 'scummy'. It becomes a vicious cycle, but ultimately the killer is the one to decide if there's scum. The only perk I'll say is problematic is DH, but that's not scummy, just a way too good perk.
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The game is competitive because you're put against an opponet(s) with the objective to make the other side lose (Escape/Die) and you gain value based on it.
The only time it doesn't become competitive since no value is gained is Kill Your Friends which are custom games, and even then it can get competitive since the goal is to still Escape/Kill.
With all that said, how does a Survivor play to YOUR definition of "scumbag"?
Flashlight Saves
Sabotaging Hooks
Running the Killer for 3-5 gens
Body blocking in certain situations such as DS and BT
Head-on/DS/Flashbang in any order or remove
Based on your definition, this applies. And there are more examples.
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I was just about the post the same thing.
People talk a lot about winning, but DBD has no objective "win" other than having fun. Other people talk about how they play against scumbags so they're gonna play like scumbags too. I've played with and against some of the biggest ######### in the game and it hasn't made me run a meta build with a key or a flashlight every match. My objective is just to have fun, as intended. If anyone wants to play counter to my idea of fun, they're welcome to, but that is entirely on them.
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In a 1v1, killer wins almost every time. You're faster and have special abilities to help you get the survivors faster. Perks aside on either front, the game is designed this way. I think a lot of the frustration with camping comes with the small bit of authority you do have as killer (since you're the only threat on the map that the survivors can't get rid of) and as such there comes some certain level of obligation to the opposing team and yourself to not hard face camp. You're the only thing that can halt someone's game completely. That's YOUR choice as a killer, and normally people choose not to do that because it's not interactive or enjoyable despite the very clear advantage you can gain from securing a kill.
That isn't to say there isn't a time to camp or tunnel (like if you are falling behind and need to get a survivor out of the match to possibly win) that most people agree on and that ultimately is more optimal than if you just set up shop near a Meg on her first hook. I think the big divide comes when survivors feel confident and taunt the killer regardless. Now you're just asking for it, right? But again, is the survivor being toxic while clicking with their flashlight, or are they trying to get your attention for a challenge or ritual? That finally bears the question: What does the killer want to do?
DbD has the emblem system in place which entices the killer to play actively. That is unless a killer isn't concerned with BP as much as they are getting that kill on hook, in which case there is absolutely no better way to do that other than babysitting. It sucks, but this is just the liberty a player has at their disposal in the role they're playing. It's just like slugging an entire team and hooking everyone one by one. Sure it's a cheap and effective tactic, but does the Nea vaulting over the same pallet three times deserve to bleed out on the ground for four minutes? Do her teammates?
Perks mitigate this, but only to a small degree. An Unbreakable play is a diamond in the rough, but even more rare than that is it ultimately leading to anything fruitful. Deliverance (more or less), DS, and BT are helpful, but if the killer wants to commit then there is nothing you can really do.
All that said, a coordinated and/or wise team will sacrifice their camped friend and push all the gens, leaving the killer with one or two kills. That makes winning harder for the killer, but it didn't stop them from bm'ing at least one or two of them.
TL;DR Camping sucks, and it's been prevalent recently, but it's patently the killer's prerogative to do it. If they want to it'll happen no matter what, perks or otherwise.
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I fully disagree that it's competitive. You can have a competitive attitude toward it, but there are no WIN CONDITIONS determined by the game itself. You can have a 0k and still Brutal killer. You can get 2 kills and still Pip. I mean at this point you can call Among Us competitive with such a loose definition. Doesn't actually make it a competitive game anyone would seriously agree with beyond semantics in a forum argument.
Now for survivor scumbag discussion:
-Flashlight saves are not scummy. They can be annoying but they offer two advantages to a killer: The first being they aren't doing gens, so no Gen-rush whining allowed. The second is that they are predictable and can give you free pressure, sometimes even two downs at the same time. For how 'scummy' it is, it's ludicrously killer-sided. This changes if the survivors are more skilful than you.
-Sabotage by itself isn't scummy, they're once again not doing gens and putting themselves at risk, especially if you drop. I will agree on one thing: Full-sabo squads are scummy and asinine. Luckily they're one in a hundred, unlike the hard tunnelling killer that's easily one in two games. But, in this VERY SPECIFIC fully dedicated team? Oh yeah. Hooking becomes sometimes impossible and you can barely play the game.
-It is only the killer's fault for being run this long. Either by lacking skill or by making bad calls. The survivor is by no means scummy for playing the chasing game and the others doing the objective. It happens you get gens popping fast but that's a flaw in game design and map RNG.
-BT bodyblocking can be punished by slugging the bodyblocker. You may be forced to just slug but that's, once again, someone not doing gens. And often times leads to two slugs if you've properly hooked someone in a deadzone. DS can't be abused nearly as much anymore, I never eat it unless I'm genuinely tunnelling.
-Meme perks not counting DS. So they traded some meta perks for flashbang or even better, removed an exhaustion for head-on. Why aren't you celebrating? This is the reverse of scummy, the survivors are running a more fun build. If you feel bullied by a head-on gang, remember that they can't press e to outplay, making chases easier for you. Absolutely no scum here, and you can easily counter these with literally paying attention.
One thing that is scummy is playing immersed to hold the game hostage, but that's actually a bannable offense, so hey, report that #########.
When killers decide to be scumbags, what can the SURVIVOR actually do? Nothing. Camped? Game's over. Tunnelled? Game's over, you're either going to run that idiot all game or die without getting to do other things. Slugged all game? Game's over unless you have soul guard. Note that all these strategies are specifically made to make sure one side CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT and MAKES THEIR LIVES MISERABLE. That is scummy. And the only thing I'd equate it to are sabotage squads. The rest on your list? Easily handled. And I'm not saying these strats aren't valid. People just act like they're not asinine. They are.
I don't consider using perks scummy whatsoever. I do find combos like Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer as bad as DS/UB/BT/DH, but they're part of the game. I hate them but nobody is inherently scummy for running them. I will make fun of them if they fail despite those however, lmao. And it'd be fair game if they did that to me.
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The reason why some people play like a "scumbag" is because what scummy is differs so much from person to person that there is no rule to it
If i'm playing on Azarov's resting place and the survivors only did one side of the gens and i have a hook in the middle. Then I'll camp that hook if the rest is on the side without gens. For me that's not scummy, that's tactically sound. I wouldn't get upset over it if it happened to me. So if i don't view it as scummy, there is no reason why i shouldn't do it.
If i notice you respect pallets superhard then i will continue to abuse that and extent loops. If you never check for flashlights or look at a wall then i will save another survivor during pickup. And if it happens 4 times in a match that's in my eyes not me being scummy but you not learning
Now there are ofcourse people who will throw games just to make sure one person doesn't live past their first hook and yes, that's scummy.
But 9/10 scummy is a word people use when they lost and they want to blame it on anything but themself.
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What constitutes playing as a scumbag? Is there like some unwritten rule I don't know about?
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Yep, with the number of pallets on some maps, where your best strategy is just dropping the pallet and run.
With awesome "hit-validation", survivors can camp the pallet and I cannot mindgame that
With breakable walls, that you are facing in the mid chase and have to break it to prevent infinite loop...
I don't feel I am a killer anymore, I am a lumberman!
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Not going to bother arguing over whether or not DBD is competitive based on what you think is competitive. What I will say though is that DBD has competitive SWF teams that play and tourneys have taken place.
"..Essentially going out of you way to not allow someone to get points/play the game so you can win .."
These are your words on what a scumbag Killer is. So let's go over the list of examples you defended and see the similarities.
1. Flashlight saves deny a Killer points in the sacrificial category. This also extends the chases to an X amount of time which allows at LEAST 2 other survivors to continue repairing gens instead of pressuring them off.
2. Sabo of Hooks still denies Killer points in the sacrificial category. And like Flashlight saves, it only takes 1 other person to do it. It doesn't take an entire team to do a Flashlight save or Sabo save so idk what you're on about. This also extends chases once again and allows Survivors to repair as normal.
3. Doing an extremely long chase is definitely the fault of the Killer. HOWEVER, by your definition, it fits as being scummy because you're denying the Killer points in all categories and disallowing them to do any other function of the game. Especially when the entire team is able to maintain such long chases. Guess how you counter these teams though? Tunnel the strongest/weakest individual out of the game.
4. Players who bodyblock with MoM, Medkit with purple add-on, BT, etc. Are denying you the hook and may force you to do another long chase to get one of them. Once again, denying points.
5. Not going to argue with you on what you consider to be meta or not. However, Head-on, Flashbang, and other perks that purposefully waste your time and deny you points depending on the situation, especially when used to troll the player, fits your definition of scummy play.
Now let's take your attempted defenses for the Survivor and apply it to the Killer.
1. Killer tunnels only 1 Survivor: That's the Survivors fault for not being well hidden or skilled enough to run tiles against the Killer. On top of that, that means the other 3 Survivors won't be pressured off Gens and can easily rush to completion. They can also step in and prolong their chase by taking hits or body blocking.
2. Killer Camps: In the wise words of you, "Why aren't you celebrating?" That's AT LEAST 2 minutes of repairing gens, escaping cleansing totems that have been hindering you, etc. There have also been amazing plays pulled off, even when Killers have camped. Not including perks that COUNTER camping, both meta and non meta
3. Killer Slugs: No-Mither, Soul Guard, Unbreakable, etc. This is also considered a second chance instead of getting hooked because that means your time in game to play is even longer since you haven't been hooked yet. It also takes the same amount of time to heal someone off the ground who's healed up all the way as much as it takes to unhook someone.
TLDR;
If your answer is that the Killer should rejoice or its their fault when the Survivor(s) play by your definition of being a scumbag but not apply that to the Survivor(s) when the Killer plays by your definition, you're kinda biased and a hypocrite.
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Okay for the competitive side. As I said, just because some people think it can be competitive doesn't make it a competitive game. The Dev's apathy toward it says plenty.
Alright this argument is getting very strawman-y, using one loose definition of mine and taking it very literally. At this point I feel like in one of these Anime forums where they discuss Vs. fights with the most minute of details.
-The killer respected the pallet! They've denied me 1000 boldness points! Absolutely scummy.
No, that is not what I meant and you know it. A better reference to my intention in the post would be: "all these strategies are specifically made to make sure one side CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT and MAKES THEIR LIVES MISERABLE", now admittedly, 'makes their lives miserable' is very much an exaggeration. People can still have fun doing this and it's just a game. But let's not act like those that hard tunnel without being pressured to do so aren't doing it to engage the opposing side. We all know griefing is rampant in multiplayer games. Survivors can make the killer miserable, but the killer can just, you know, kill them. Unless they're outmatched. At this point the survivors are so much scummy as they're just scumbag people. So yeah, I do think bullying is scummy if it works, which is shouldn't if MMR is working.
Parenthesis aside, only three killers have powers that incentivize these three things as actual optimal gameplay: Pyramid Head for Tunnelling, Hag for Camping (Maybe Bubba but not really) and Twins for excessive slugging. The rest are purely decisions from the player. Nothing is compelling them to do this nor does their base kit truly incentivizes this approach over regular chasing and pressure spreading. Some MIGHT be stronger by being territorial, but it's almost always player choice, which is where the scummy remark comes. And, to be clear, this isn't me telling people to stop. They do whatever they want.
I did forget to add that SWF's with all BNP's do give off a very 'scummy' feeling. Anything that gives an overwhelming edge versus the other side with no effort gives me this vibe, personally. I feel the same over map offerings that are particularly mean. Note that these things I've mentioned have little bearing to BP gain or playing the game. They just suck and show some degree of malicious intent from one side.
I appreciate the discussion, but I draw the line with strawmen. Good day, fellow forum-goer.
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