Supa Thread: Wraith.
Just, throw in here what you think about him here, what changes (be it buffs or nerfs) you think he needs so someone else can refute what you say or agree with you.
Thats it.
Comments
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All Seeing addon needs a downside. I would prefer that it stops showing the aura when you start uncloaking.
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Agreed.
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I'm not going to say Wraith is OP but I find playing against his very underwhelming as in he's boring. The undetectabity, super speed inside stealth and uncloaking are all just stale to play against. You could take away his invisibility all together and he would be the same boring killer. Their is no thought in cloaking yet the player gets instant reward.
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Wraith is finally strong enough to handle the average teams! He's still not the best killer, but he's WAY better than before. No longer add-on reliant, feels threatening to go against, and actually quite relaxing to play as if I just wanna turn off my brain.
That doesn't mean I'm open to a few more changes to him, though. I would change his "All Seeing" - Blood add-on to tremendously reduce Wraith's speed to 126% while cloaked to give it a downside, it just removes the ability to mindgame Wraith most of the time. Plus, it'd be nice to revisit old Wraith in some way, y'know? However, I'd still like to buff Wraith in some way, to his base-kit precisely. I would change the speed while uncloaking back to the way it was before 4.6.0, I don't think that part of Wraith needed to be nerfed.
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Tbh for me Wraith is more of a Theme thing than a gameplay thing. The idea of an invisible growling person that materializes by the sound of his bell sounds cool as #########, and he delivers it quite well. If we see it from a gameplay only perspective well yeah, that aint that great.
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Actually, he wouldn't. It would give the survivor more time to reach a window or pallet because of how easy it'd be to see Wraith, essentially removing his ability to get free hits most of the time. If you'd like to see how that would go, use the meme add-on that gives him a terror radius while cloaked, while giving him bonus bloodpoints.
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I actually disagree there, due to the cheer speed wraith has you can just get on top of someone so easily that the speed debuff was kind of needed . Hell i wouldnt mind making it a bit slower if you really wanted to.
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To add onto this, lets not forget that Wraith's invisibility reduces the volume of the sounds he makes. From his growl to his footsteps.
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Wraith is in a great spot. Base kit is strong but simple, most add-ons are useful and/or fun, and a great variety of perk builds work quite well on him, so that even if you go against Wraith a lot, you'll usually be playing against different perks. I agree that the purple All Seeing needs a downside. I like the idea of it deactivating while uncloaking, but I'd also be in favor of making its range 8m instead of 12m.
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I like scott's idea of nerfing it, make it not work until you have been cloaked for at least 5 seconds.
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I think that his invisibility buff needs to be reverted. Currently, a survivor can be staring directly at him and still not have enough time to react before getting hit if he sprints right at them and uncloaks in their face.
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I dunno, wasn't it like that before he got buffed when using the old Windstorm add-ons? I don't think anyone minded it at that time. I'd say maybe try it out in a PTB, but at the same time it shouldn't be a priority since Wraith is in a great spot atm.
Exactly, and even then the sounds will still be present (although less noticeable) which gives survivors time to react.
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You mean all seing add on?
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That would solve nothing from what people claim to want the nerf for which is the anti stealth/immersed.
Being honest all seeing blood is probably the most overrated add-on in the game currently due to how low its detection range actually is.
Ps. Not all strong add-ons need a downside or we should start applying that logic to the survivors too as a lot of their best add-ons have no downsides despite their power.
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You do know not all balance standards must be applied equally to both sides, right? If survivors have a strong thing with no downside, but killers have an incredibly strong thing with no downside, there's no need to add a downside to the survivor thing if you add a downside to the killer thing.
Not everything is an us vs them debate, and you don't have to bring it up in every conversation, you know?
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Just pointing out the hypocrisy
Btw You are literally saying: "Rules for THE not for ME".
I am sorry but double standards should be called out.
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I personally think it would be fun if the ghost soot add on was basekit
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Hm, yes. Rules for them but not for me.
Please go back to the example I gave, and let's analyse it together since reading through the bias glasses must be so hard for you.
"If survivors have a strong thing with no downside, but killers have an incredibly strong thing with no downside, there's no need to add a downside to the survivor thing if you add a downside to the killer thing."
So. Survivors have a strong thing. Killers have an incredibly strong thing. To turn the killer's incredibly strong thing to strong, a downside is added as a countermeasure. To turn the survivor's strong thing to strong, you don't need to add a downside, because it is already strong but not too strong.
Capiche?
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His default design is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. And even though he is one of the most fun killers... I just can't stomach him.
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makes sense. at the end of the day he is supossed to be someone with his face burned.
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that would work if first of all, all seeing was even remotely close to incredibly strong. And that is also supossing that no survivor add on gets even close to incredibly strong, which is just a lie.
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Cool design and lore. Very balanced barring his all seeing blood add on.
He is hated for the same reason Freddy was. He is easy to play and played often but isnโt actually as strong as people think
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Please show where exactly I stated I was on about "All-Seeing- Blood". I was talking about a general principle. :)
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oh. Why would you talk about that when people are debating about all seeing blood.
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Because it was brought up in general, so I challenged it.
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Wait, even then your principle is wrong, because for it to work there would still need to be no Incredibly strong thing on either side. It works in theory thinking about one side having a really strong item while the other one does not, but that just wouldnt be the case here.
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Why do killer add-ons/perks/anything need a down-side to them whereas survivor ones never do? You probably have to get 3-4 bloodwebs to get one add-on, so they're hardly common in normal matches. He feels alright right now, if the maps were fixed (haddonfiled, mormond or w/e it's called) then he would be pretty good. He relies way too much on his add-ons to be good though.
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Both sides so have incredibly strong things, yes. However taking a look at them, the Syringe add-on is probably the best, as it is a health state within 16 seconds. It's a very, very strong add-on, however consumes the entire medkit upon use and can be cancelled out if they change health state beforehand. It has it's uses and it's downsides.
Brand New Part is possibly the worst offender of not having a particularly massive downside. Whilst it's nowhere near as strong as it used to be, being able to compete 25% of a generator very very quickly and not even consume the toolbox after is a smidgen too much, and the downside to that being "don't get interrupted or don't miss the skillchecks" isn't that big of a downside if you're smart while using it.
All flashlight add-ons are trash except batteries, but they're not good enough to warrant the downside. If anything they should be buffed. Same with Maps.
Blood Amber is an incredibly good add-on, but has the downside that you use a key up at 50% the rate. Once keys themselves get gutted this should be fine. The main strength of it comes not from the Blood Amber itself but the fact it sits on a key.
Gel Dressings, Medical Scissors, Socket Swivel, and Wire Spool you could make an argument for being very good, however this is mostly down to the utility of the item itself (with Medkits, followed by Toolboxes, being the best 2 items in the game). They're the only really, incredibly good add-ons I can think of.
And killers have this too. Mother Daughter Ring, for example, removes Spirit's primary form of tracking now that sounds have been changed, and Nurse's range addons also increase the charge time.
Wraith's All Seeing Blood is on the fence, in that in some scenarios it's overbearing good (indoor maps, especially RPD/Hawkins), and in others it's practically worthless (very open outdoor maps, like Blood Lodge). I don't think it's perfect, but I also don't think it warrants a downside to compensate (unlike some add-ons, topknot). I feel like having the aura fade out as you uncloak, as was mentioned by someone else in this thread, and I think that would help allow survivors a bit more maneuverability during the ubcloak and allow them to potentially trick the Wraith player as they uncloak. Even then I'm not sure it needs the change.
Overall, outside of charge add-ons (maybe) and Brand New Part, I wouldn't say there are any survivor addons so good that they really need the counterbalance of a downside. However, not everything has to be an us vs them, survivors get this killers get that, etc etc debate. Balance isn't just nerfing one side and buffing another- they both play completely differently and so both should be treated differently. Just because one thing is getting a downside or slight tweak to numbers doesn't necessarily mean that the other side needs to have one too.
Does that make sense? I hope so??
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Wraith can do incredibly well basekit, now that Windstorm isn't practically required though lol
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unholy bible you got there bud. Dont worry i read it all up, so, yeah, fair enough.
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I got distracted while eating lunch blame the salami
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i actually dont think he needs windstorm as much. i really like dishing my gen tracking perks and just going iridescent all seing with pure chase/utility perks
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Curse you Salami!
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What I don't like about reworked Wraith is his almost instant uncloacking. No matter if you see him and run away, due to his speed he just body block you and unclock so you always get guaranteed hit.
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The conversation isnโt well what about survivor addons perks etc. Itโs a simple change that would add a limited window of counterplay to a wall hack addon. Wraith is not reliant on addons anymore, and you can get the addons very quickly.
Iโll humor the discussion about survivor addons not having downsides.
Bnp-if you miss the skill checks you lose the effect of the part along with a substantial amount of toolbox charges
Syringe-You have to wait 16 seconds base and if you change health states you lose the effect, also it consumes your medkit.
Styptic-You only get it for 8 seconds and the killer can see that your medkit was consumed.
The only addons that are considerably one sided are the key addons to preserve the key whether they open the hatch with it or die. But yeah survivor addons donโt have downsides.
As for addons like the aura reading on keys, those have an incredibly limited charge so comparing them to wraiths addon is also nonsensical.
Summary: Constant wall hacks until the point of a lunge which is almost impossible to avoid unless the wraith is on controller, and the persistence of this addon. Simply ending the aura reading when the killer starts uncloaking is more than fair as it still allows the wraith to get vision but at the same time would allow a survivor to make a potential play in a skillful manner.
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its not that short really, 3 seconds is quite a bit all things considered, and his uncloaking speed add ons arent really that crazy
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How I've always felt about him.
I like playing as him, (Though Demo boy has captured my heart now).
I find him incredibly easy to play against. I genuinely don't understand how people have trouble against him, but I guess that's just differing experience.
I sure there are people who have easy times playing against killer's I don't. Like Plague. I always lose to Plague, in the very rare times I see her.
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I suicide on hook
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just as a note, at this point Wraith just seems like a healthier spirit. If your change somehow became a thing, that would be basically like what spirit does with aura reading.
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Oh I agree- since they made Purple Windstorm basekit he's been able to hold his own incredibly well vs good and even great teams. He's a very good killer imho and finally deserves his time in the spotlight.
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Why play against a Wraith when you can make them dc with Blast Mine and Flashbang ๐
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At least you can tell what Wraith is doing and where he is (when he's near you) and the big DING DING of "Hey I'm uncloaking <3" adds substantially more counterplay than Spirit, so is much healthier than her even with the change
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oh god please no
There's nothing that makes me panic more than the sound of a ######### flashbang drop when I'm playing Wraith
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Let's chain it with Head On for extra good measure :))
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yeah. i have always seen some analogies between Wraith and Spirit but it has been a lot more common lately.
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hold up, if tecnically it is the entity that kills you, does that still count as suicide?
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One you have full information on and must run loops like every other M1 killer, with counterplay on short loops but long loops are his enemy. One has no issues at all except with the P3 immersed survivor deciding to taste test every bush in the trial.
I just don't get how you can compare Wraith to that #########??
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I guess I force the Wraith to allow me to give a hug to the entity !
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nah not comparing, just some similarities in concept. almost every change people can think of for wraith make him slighly similar to spirit. but, as you said, is basically a healthier version.
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"Local man terrified of lockers. More at 11."
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