The ACTUAL Problem with the Slinger change.
Sorry Slinger mains but he was extremely unfun and oppressive as a killer and killer designs shouldn't keep being that. This change was a healthy one and in the right direction.
The problem with this change is the fact that he was EXTREMELY 1v1 oppressive, but EXTREMELY weak in the 1v4, like lots of the killers they keep making. They made his 1v1 much better to face, but now he is still weak in the 1v4. I hope he gets some sort of buff to help compensate for that now. This new change was for sure a good one, but his weakness is going to shine brighter now. I don't have an idea for it now, but hopefully the devs are thinking of something nice.
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The problem is that a survivor's idea of a fun killer to play against is one that they can run for all five gens with ease. That's ridiculous in a 1v4 game. You're basically asking the killer player to take an auto loss every single game the way that the game mechanics are currently designed. No one is going to keep playing when one and two hook games are the norm at high MMR with the way the developer's design philosophy is moving in regards to killer nerfs.
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It will 100% make him weaker but I do agree it should make him less unfun to deal with. Although I don't know how badly it will affect him because ultimately he wasn't an amazing killer to begin with since he has bad map presence and even if he hits his power in chase it uses a bit more time than other killers. I feel that overall that should be something that's look at with him in the future if he's underwhelming in the PTB but we'll see.
Personally I felt that he should have had an accuracy gauge that lowered the more he aimed down sights to prevent spamming. That way quick shots were rewarded but constantly faking it out would kill his accuracy and remove the free zoning option.
Overall though I do agree - Good changes.
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If you are having so much trouble with looping where a killer with an instant shot that is undodgeable and can also be spammed without punishment is the only way for you to get downs, then in general you need to get good lmao. Fun shouldn't be something that is gatekept by a certain side, and there shouldn't be killers that completely ruin the fun. Did you actually even read my post?
I said the problem with Deathslinger is his 1v4. He still is just as good in loops, but now he isn't as awful to face. Deathslinger at high MMR is still going to get trucked because of his insane poor map pressure, but boy can he be awful to face in 1v1, great design. This change wasnt because survivors want a ez killer to face, it is a change to make the overall experience not so negative, but he definitely needs buffed in another area.
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Fully agreed and I like that idea of the accuracy gauge, would even making aiming a skill cap for him like huntress and not so spammy like you said. I wouldn't even mind if deathslinger became 115% now, he is much better in the 1v1 for both sides but needs something to help him in the actual game.
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Deathslinger's shot can be spammed without punishment? Did they remove his reloading and his slow movement speed in this developer update? I must have missed that.
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I totally agree.
Unfortunatly there is no easy solution for him. A simply buff to compensate the nerf like 115% mms will make him unfair in a chase again.
Deathslinger is a good example on how to not desgin a killer. Just like Twins btw (who are hopefully next on the list)
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I don't like these changes. They will just make him less fun to play as and overall just worse in winning games.
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Yeah... that's... not the only issue with these nerfs.
You know what Survivors can do ridiculously well when against Deathslinger?
Hold Shift + W.
With a speed difference of only 0.4 m/s between Deathslinger and a running Survivor... If we ignore perks and add ons, the amount of time it takes Deathslinger to get within firing range of a Survivor who started running right when he heard the Terror Radius is currently 15 seconds. The nerf to Deathslinger's Terror Radius increases that to 35 seconds. That's nearly half a Gen. How the heck is he supposed to be viable when *at best* his first hit can take that long? Trick question, he won't be.
Basically the only way Slinger will be playable is if they hyper buff Marshal's Badge and Gold Creek Whiskey to offset this or you load his butt with several perks that grant Undetectable. Otherwise you'll take waaaaaaaaaay too long to get close enough to actually do anything.
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i rather think the issue is that the Devs are trying to balance killers for 1v1 scenarios, because that is what survivors will define as the "fun part of DbD" (which i will agree with).
however, this is an asymetrical game. if we make it so in an engagement both sides find the encounter to be a "fair and fun one" (so one where the only way of winning is outplaying your opponent), then the side that is supposed to be the power role (Killer) is going to lose the overall game, simply because they cant take on 4 equally as strong opponents.
Killers are always supposed to have an upper hand on any engagement you take with Survivors. Yet a vast majority of the current Killers dont have that - in fact, Killer is a purely reactive role to what the Survivor does.
Slinger was one of the very few Killers who didnt have that problem (and yes, it is a problem), so their change away from that is actually a lot less healthy than you would think, unless of course you only look at the games balance from the Survivors (so the 1v1) perspective.
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You are right with one thing: Survivors indeed should be able to run a killer for 5 gens.
Assume a very good survivor plays against a mediocre or bad killer, his skill advantage should give him the edge to run him for that ammount of time.. simply because he is that much better. Even in a 4v1 skill should matter.
Thats not the case with a Deathslinger. Even a mediocre Deathslinger with decent RNG can easily down a very good survivor relative quick.
Most survivors have a problem with that and i think the reason is very obvious and understandable.
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No. A survivor's idea of a fun killer to play against is one with tons of mindgames, decision making and other skill involved. Such as Huntress. She is terrifying at top level, but man do we love to play against her.
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Yep, initial chase distance is huge for both Slinger and Trickster.
There is nothing more "unfun" than helplessly holding W for 30+ seconds, kicking a pre-dropped pallet, and holding W some more. Where are all those survivors that were complaining about "counterplay" again?
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For Trickster it isn't quite as bad because I find a lot of Survivors can't hear or don't respect his Lullaby. Also if he gets LoS, he can chuck a knife or two to make the Survivor think twice about Shift + W in a straight line in like... say the Midwich Hallways.
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Personally, I'd say the real problem is that he's now a 110% killer w/ a 32m TR (which I'm assuming means his TR add-ons are remaining the same...I hope) that has no way to deal with vaults effectively and loses the majority of his 'quick shot into pull survivor around an obstacle for m1" ability - He's not oppressive on any kind of loop/vault/chase now, gets super wrecked by Dead Hard(like Nurse), loses quick shot to deal with Lithe/SB, and is most likely going to be worse than Trickster in terms of viability now :(
I don't particularly like using/playing against him, but these changes are a bit bananas, imo.
These changes may fly if they make him 115%, but I doubt that will be an option.
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If Huntress was terrifying at high-level then she'd be complained about more like nurse. Your definitely of counterplay is that the killer must play around the survivor's actions as a reactive force, which is the opposite of what counterplay means.
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Huntress really isn't terrifying at a high level though. I played against CoconutRTS recently on Ormond and all four of us escaped easily because we got the gens done efficiently. I'm just a mediocre solo queue survivor player on console that's below average at looping too. The only terrifying killer is a god tier Nurse.
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That is exactly what I said lmao I said he is much better in the 1v1 but now lacks in pressure overall. Also don't complain about survivors holding W when the counterplay to a killer consists of only that. But yeah, what you just said is exactly what I put in the post lmao he is now weaker in the 1v4 and pressuring survivors
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A killer who can get run for 35 seconds before even having a chance to land a hit is *not* good in the 1v1 anymore. Which is the main issue with the nerfs.
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If you are seriously going to have a problem with his 1v1 even after the nerf that is on you lmao his gun is still incredibly strong.
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Nope, that's you being an entitled killer. A fun killer is one where my actions have input on the 1v1, preferably close to equal to the killer. Ofcourse not the effects, but I should be able to bait the killer's ability and dodge it, which is impossible vs Deathslinger. It's the same reason why Spirit wasnt fun to verse.
Heck, even if Deathslinger right now barely got more than 2 kills on average and was weaker than half the killers on the 1v4. Doesnt really excuse his boring 1v1 mechanics.
You can bait a Nurse and use that bait to dodge quite a lot.
So the 1v1 change needed to happen. The only thing I am also hoping in return, is a better 1v4. Like making him 115% killer instead(with a 32 meter TR, that makes sense, having a 32 meter TR on a 110% killer is an extremely weird choice).
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You may be right about the 1v1(I don't have him yet or play survivor so I really don't know) but I don't think it a good idea to massively nerf a killer in one area without buff them in another. Now people who have this killer may have an unfun or unuseable killer who they spent money or shards for some unknown amount of time. I think he should get some kinda buff to his 4v1 in the same patch or hold the nerf till they come up with a way to make that happen. I know I was planning to get him next with my shards( I even thought about buying his chapter) but now knowing this nerf is coming I'm not going to spend either shards or money on him till I see how he does or if he gets a buff later on. I feel bad for those who have spent stuff on him in the past bc now they could end up with a killer who wouldn't be able to perform or just become very unfun to play as.
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I ain't talking about his gun mate. It's getting nerfed but we haven't got enough numbers on it to know how that'll be. No... what I'm talking about is this...
Trial starts, I'm on Deathslinger, I start hoofing it towards a gen. I get there... Survivor has left. I start following the scratch marks. I keep following the scratch marks. I keep following the scratch marks. 20 seconds after I walk past the Gen, I finally catch a glimps of the Survivor who's still 20 meters away. I have to keep holding W for yet another 5 seconds before I can land a max range spear. If I can't get a max range spear for whatever reason, I'll need to wait another 5-10 seconds to take a 16 or 14m shot. At this point I've been "chasing" this Survivor for 38 seconds and I'm just now in range for my first shot and most of the time has been spent far enough away to not be "in chase" so no bloodlust for me.
That's not going to work. It just isn't. It breaks his ability to get downs in a timely manner.
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I mean for one, you're wrong. She is incredibly powerful, and yet not complained about. That also is not my definition of counterplay, but do go off.
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Have you ever even played him? If not you can't claim to anything but he's not fun to go against. Sad truly sad. Another happy Survivor Devs!
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"uNfUn" is not an argument.
Survivors that knew what they were doing were able to counter Slinger fairly consistently because when you know how the character is supposed to be played, you can tell when he's likely to shoot, but it'd be too unfair to ask survivors to learn how a killer plays. Instead we must have the killer telegraph everything they have done and will do so the survivor can have ample time to react. Because reacting to something is the only valid form of counterplay. Making predictions on your opponent's actions based on how their character is played is a myth perpetuated by the illuminati.
And here's the funny part about this change: When a slinger ADSs, you still have NO idea when he's going to shoot and you will still be unable to dodge his shot because it comes out at 40 m/s. All you'll have is an indication that he MIGHT shoot, which is exactly what you had before, except that you needed to use your noggin instead of having the game tell explicitly, and in the process, you made him weaker at loops because he won't be able to shoot fast enough at survivors turning corners.
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That is what survivor main counterplay is. A 100% guaranteed way to 1v1 a killer that works consistently and has no counter for the killer.
AKA full control of the chase requiring them to make a mistake instead of the killer forcing them to make the bad decision.
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I swear that seems to be what some of them actually want. I've seen so many survivors asking unironically for ridiculous things that are basically just that. The survivor should see the killer's actions coming in advance, they should be able to react and counter the killer's action, and once the survivor counters the killer, the killer should not have any counter to the counter.
It's sad really.
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then again that is exactly what my post says, how dense can you be. His 1v1 is now not horrible to face but still strong, but map pressure and 1v4 is lacking.
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I'm not dense, you are.
Having a chase last 38 seconds before you even have a shot at getting a hit means he doesn't have a 1v1 anymore. That's not his map pressure, that's his 1v1. In fact, the 32m TR actually does help his map pressure because people are more likely to run away from him when they don't need to. But fact of the matter is that having a 32m TR butchers his chase if he doesn't reduce or remove it... because he's a 4.4 killer with no mobility.
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Um.. No? Even a mediocre Killer should not lose all 5 generators to a SINGLE survivor. If they lost all 5 gens without hooks because their team is coordinated with saves and can keep gens going, then congratulations, that's the point of DBD and literalyl any other team game.
Survivors should not automatically win a 1v1 just because they are equal or sllightly better than the Killer.
Because it's not a 1v1. It's 1v4. Holy #########.
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You completly miss the point. First i am not saying, that "Survivors should not automatically win a 1v1 just because they are equal or sllightly better than the Killer".
They should win the 1v1 when they are much more skilled. We are not talking about equal skillevel.
The point is, that from a survivor perspecitve skill versus a Slinger almost does not matter in a chase. RNG and the skill of the killer is everything that counts. Thats not fair at all.
Thankfully the devs and the majority of players see it the same way, so discussing about it wont really matter on this fundamental level.
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The whole point of MMR was to make such a disparity in skill impossible. The scenario you are describing has been considered something that should not exist in a normal game by the devs.
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Not so great killer made worse
Logical and on brand
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???
Because there is MMR now in the game, it is fine that Deathslinger is overpowered in a chase and its fine even a mediocre Deathslinger gets easy downs on much better survivors? What has MMR to do with Deathslingers power?
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Your argument that a very good Survivor should be able to solo a very bad Killer for an entire game has no point, because the game devs have made it very clear that they never want a Survivor and Killer with that gap of skill in the same game. It's akin to arguing that, if Dwight gets a shotgun in the next patch, it should take two rounds to murder non-ranged Killers instead of one for the sake of fairness. You are trying to argue game balance from a hypothetical state where the game is already going against it's own concept of balance.
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Double post.
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I'd take it up the [bad word] from behaviour if they atleast didnt touch the terror radius
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You are 25% of a team. Why are your actions equal to the killer's, when you are 25%? You can bait Spirits and Slingers. I can and have looped spirits for multiple minutes. Slinger is a little hard because his spear's hitbox is narrow, but survivor's is huge, but that isn't what is being addressed. Killers SHOULD be winning chases, and relatively quickly. The reward as a survivor should be delaying it for a significant period of time, but as it stands, delaying can easily be minutes, even against competent killers.
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