Survivors that complain about tunnelling, what do you think about this?

It has always seemed somewhat unfair to me that what can take the killer tens of seconds of actually trying to outplay the survivors can be undone with like 16 or fewer seconds of holding M1.

I think there should be some revamping of healing in this game somehow because at the moment it's too easy.

Tunneling can be necessary at times so don't let any survivor tell you how to play if you wanna do it.

It is a ######### thing though. But this game is full of ######### things that need to be done because of bad design choices. I will tunnel at times when I need to, especially at high MMR, but I'd much prefer a game where this kind of tactic is unnecessary by design, and thus prevented.

If Borrowed, a body block, and DS don't get them to the next tile, you have to admit my hook placement was pretty sick.

What if the rescuer doesn't bring BT, and the tunnelled doesn't bring DS?

That's what I call the perk tax, and it's why the survivor meta is so stale. Those perks aren't 'op second chance' crap as people like to whine on these forums: They're required to make the game playable when the killer decrees otherwise.

And it's awful design.

It's not X perks of 16 total, it's 4X perks of 16 total.

But yeah, the need for slow-down perks is also perk-tax. Killers do have more leniency in that it's not their entire build taken up by perk tax, and they have variety in which perks they can take to fill that role. But it's still not okay to have those perks be borderline mandatory.

But in that regard, tunnelling/camping and 'genrushing' sustain each other. Because without the latter, the former would be unpunishable, and vice versa.

Game needs fixin', y'all.

Then they accept the risk of their choice. Same for killers who don't use any slowdown.

Dbd's design flaws are historically band-aided with perks. It shouldn't be like that, but this is what we have to work with.

Loading into a trial without both bt and ds is the most handicapping decision a survivor can take, aside from using meme stuff like no mither. The killer wins the tunneling gamble once to know they can push a 3v1

Just to correct - Of total 24+ if they are on coms.

Mf unrioncally said that ppl run self-care in 2021... bro we can tell you're out of touch with the game

The whole rulebook argument is stupid. Not every survivor is the "evil 4,000 hours knows every loop and will run you for 5 gens" type.

Being tunneled isn't fun, and complaining about tunneling isn't a "babies mindset"; survivors who just want to play casually and not worry about meta perks or how long they can run the killer for get tunneled off-hook because the killer's afraid they'll get genrushed if they don't.

This entire debate is very silly, because it tries to apply moral weight to playing a competitive (and I know calling DBD competitive is a meme, but I am not talking about MLG esports competitive, I am talking about how it is a group activity where one's success comes at the expense of someone else's, a flipping game of UNO is competitive) game with pretty extreme consequences for misplays.

The Killer's goal is to efficiently remove the ability of survivors to do gens so they can kill them. That is it. Any action that does not accomplish this goal is, large or small, throwing. You can say tunneling doesn't require skill or isn't fun, but because the killer is obligated to force the survivors into using their time inefficiently, it is inherently selfish to demand the killer doesn't do it. It doesn't matter that its a bad time for you, it is a bad time to get flashbanged and lose your auto-sniper in Counter Strike, doesn't mean your opponent is obligated to avoid doing so because it hurts your feelings.

Likewise, the survivor's goal is to efficiently complete gens and deny the killer the ability to pressure them. This is why the entire concept of 'genrush' is sorta a meme: The survivors not only don't have objectives other than gens, trying to do gens while you can't stop them is entirely what they are trying to do as a team. To continue the Counter Strike example, acting like survivors shouldn't slam the gens if you are over-commited to chasing someone and you aren't applying pressure overall is very silly and is akin to asking the enemy team to throw a bunch of rounds for you when your losing in counter-strike so you can get more chances to beat them.

The problem with DBD is optimal strategies tend to involve denying any sort of interaction that the other side values, more than 'your a dick if you do X.' It is a competitive game your playing with strangers, its literally a prisoner's dilemma scenario, and with MMR if you try to play nice you WILL get rocked. The killer legitimately doesn't have time to give the survivors every chance to save their teammates and keep playing. Even ignoring the power of forcing a 3v1, you need to maintain pressure and the only way to do that is to be near where survivors are going to be, and you KNOW survivors are going to try to go for the rescue to avoid the 3v1.

Camping and tunneling are deeply part of DBD's DNA. It was literally a dev goal during the beta for hook rescues to generally be a bad idea unless the killer was known to be far away, the killer was intended to use the survivor as bait and basically to have overwhelming power to stop unhooks, with the reward for a successful unhook being huge and hooks sorta low key being balanced from a time efficiency standpoint for the killer around being a 1-2 hook kill. The entire hook interaction decision matrix comically favors defensive play from the killer as a result: it literally disables the solo killer longer than the time it takes for one survivor to rescue one incapacitated player to hook someone, and the hook only rewards you compared to a slug if it gets a kill. You were never intended to consistently get rescued, but once SWF was added the rapid elimination of 'classic DBD' became understandably unappealing: It was NBD to just re-queue solo after dying hook 1, but in SWF you really can't do that and sitting through an entire match after first hook sucked, so they continually nerfed hooks and camping (often creating slug metas by accident when they over-nerfed defensive play, like when BT was first introduced and killers literally couldn't stop the sloppiest hook rescues on the planet).

Fixing this requires a lot of dedicated effort, and frankly a lot of the things that could fix it were put into perks. It would also require a lot of things survivors don't like, for example making it harder to actually rescue people if the killer is defending the hook (ex: removing fake unhooks, which directly encourage more camping despite seeming like a camping nerf). A huge problem with DBD's design is basically any time a major game balance issue comes up that could use a basekit rework, its made into a perk of some sort. Also, to be very frank, most survivors are outright terrible at rescues and basically leave their rescuee victims to die. Like it is kind of funny that this was such a problem the dev diaries basically stopped because people kept complaining about it when in reality most killers do not hard camp and it actually comes down to people just expecting the killer to let the rescue happen no matter how unsubtle you are about it and expecting them to just leave the victim alone while you hide, as well as people's instinct to do 'instarescues' which are a terrible idea and should earn you a slap to the head because you didn't have the good sense to maximize the full minute you get to do a rescue for both damaging the killer via gens and ensuring the unhooked victim has the best chance to escape.

It is also critical to remember something: As a killer, chases are kinda boring. The epitome of fun for a survivor for a killer is mostly rote because mindgames don't work at high end and it mostly just comes down to you forcing the hit (which is why the BL removal test was such a disaster). For killers, most of the fun is in a greater meta-strategy of time management and controlling and predicting survivor behavior, and catching a survivor with their pants down near a hook because you saw into their mind and predicted the exact angle and timing of a rescue is probably one of the highest points of killer play. Trying to force killers to give up that strategic element of gameplay to just engage in more chases with you is never going to work and will result in this game going the way of Evolve, because its shutting down the main interesting thing about killer gameplay.

Finally, there is just the core fact that both side's objectives directly are based around minimizing the other player's ability to interact or play the game, and to minimize the effects of their actions to an extreme degree. This isn't super uncommon in gaming (Think most shooters where dying takes you out of the round!), but in DBD its really bad because your consistently able to do this successfully, and if you fail to do this you generally lose pretty much then and there, especially as a killer. I am not going to say killer is weaker, because it isn't, but it is definitely the role you have to have less 'chill' in because if you give up an inch of power you basically are screwed vs people who know what they are doing.

While I am not sure VHS is going to be successful, a lot of the ideas in it are clearly a direct attempt to itterate on some of DBD's design (ex: Enrage dumpstering W meta so if you just constantly challenge killer at objectives and refuse to respect them you die, the survivor objective literally requiring killer interaction, killer hits locking down all survivor tools so you can't just swarm the killer and disrespect them, side objectives that serve to close out the game if one side turtles, a focus on slugging rather than player elimination as the victory condition which DBD often defaults too anyway, and a much greater willingness to let survivors take quick hits and force them into deadzones, ect.). I would not be shocked if DBD starts to implement some of these things (enrage and the concept of the hit blocking all M1 actions especially may solve a LOT of DBD's problems regarding survivors just chronically disrespecting the killer), but I also am willing to bet most of these will become perks rather than the sorely needed updates to basekits that default to encouraging interaction.

I'd argue with the "a whole map of resources" part. I assume if you have them down they either made a bad mistake or had no resources available in the area. Either way, theres no sport in tunneling them. To me its the equivalent of someone going hunting in the zoo.

nobody has any perks --> first down = dragged to an ideal proxycamp spot --> no bt/ds/exhaustion/unbreakable so you have to let them die on hook - anything else barring extreme bodyblocks just saves the killer a ton of time tunneling them out and anyone that tries is screwed too and joins the campathon --> survivor sided question mark

seriously, imagine getting someone in the basement lol

second chance perks are really, really, reaaaaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyyyyyy good, and a big part of the survivor-sidedness of the game