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Is Dead hard a problem?
I think it is. This meta perk has saved more lives than the peniciline vaccine itself, lol. Not only dead hard though, but also those perks that grant you a second opportunity with not a big penalisation. Of course, they are necessary, I can't realistically tell you the time I found it as a last resource and saved my life. But this not hide the fact that many of those times in which I used it was because I was the ONE who made the MISTAKE, not the killer. Interestingly, if you compare DH to the other exhaustion perks out there, they clearly work diffferent: live, sprint burst and balance landing are the ones which can reallistically create a gap between chases but these must be triggered anticipately and clarly one of them awards you from playing efficiently: smash hit. In my opinion, this last perk should conserve the benefits of the actual cooldown. In a sum, players should be penalised for their mistakes in game and not be encouraged to use meta perks because they save you again, again and again. This is what encourages a positive core of a balance skill-based game. Though, you played poorly, you get penalised. You play effectivelly, then you are rewarded. No big deals in that. I hope you can understand my point.
Comments
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Ok so I’m going to confess that as of late I’ve been crutching on Dead Hard. Please don’t nerf it now lol.
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It's far less conditional than other exhaustion perks and has zero downsides. I think it's problematic when the possibility of Dead Hard working as intended is seen as more valuable than a guaranteed use of other exhaustion perks.
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I don't have a massive issue with Dead Hard tbh. I kind of see it the same way that I see other exhaustion perks, it'll give you that boost but then it's not going to help you for the rest of the chase.
Dead Hard basically allows you to be greedy, it lets you get another loop around a pallet for example - it's not a mistake when survivors do this, it's intentional, they know they have Dead Hard so they know they can make the loop before dropping that pallet, or make the window.
I still think Sprint Burst is a stronger exhaustion perk, but I feel that Dead Hard is more frustrating for some players to play against.
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Suggestion: Make Dead Hard work only when healthy. Not when injured.
Now it has a downside, if you get hit and can't find a way to heal (either another Survivor, medkit or the upcoming Healing Circle perk) then you can't use it even after the Exhaustion timer has expired. If you can heal yourself during the 40 seconds of Exhaustion status effect then nothing really changes.
This could also create cool situations where you use it to dodge an attack and then the Killer needs to decide if they want to commit to you to injure you or leave you, but if they leave you then after the Exhaustion status expires you can Dead Hard again and basically repeat the situation that made the Killer abandon the chase in the first place.
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Just going to put this here.
Penicillin isn't a vaccine, its an antibiotic. Vaccines are a preventative measure, that teach your body how to recognize and fight the specific disease you are vaccinating against. While antibiotics are used when you have a bacterial infection, and they combat the infection directly.
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I actually have done the opposite and recently left it behind. I agree, it can be a strong perk and allows you to greed more and play injured with less fear.
IDK if it's OP or not, but on god tier loopers it probably is.
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I think the problem with DH, like other perks or gen speeds , is in the hands of top tier players, it can be game changing. Sure, your average player may get another few seconds out of it, but for others, getting to that pallet or window could be another minute or two.
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I don't think it's a problem. If we go this way, a lot of perks are a problem.
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It should either be base kit or not exist at all. Playing around something you're not sure someone has is annoying, and then they can re-balance around it.
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SB being objectively better than Dead Hard is just objectively false lol. It might be better on potato survivors who dead hard in the open, but dead hard at any decent loop adds an entire loop to the process. Two if the killer lunges for a pallet that might be a close call and you get a dead hard out of it.
The problem with dead hard is that it is objectively the best exhaustion perk. Balanced just doesnt work on half the maps in the game. Lithe is a waste of exhaustion as it forces your exhaustion on a tile that you may not want it in. Pallet Slam is just lol. Head On is for memes. Sprint Burst is the only comparable on, it doesnt artificially extend chases, it just W keys you farther away to a tile that you wouldn't normally reach.
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It has a downside, you cant use it on full health.
For example, against NOED not helpfull with full health.
Its okay to have things like this.
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I don't really like dead hard that much. I prefer using Sprint Burst
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I think it depends on the situation. If the map is more unbalanced, dead hard can make it incredibly unbalanced since it can give you the option to preserve pallets just long enough to make it hurt the killer. Sprint burst could still help sure, but dead hard can just allow survivors to not heal the whole game, robbing the killer of their passive slowdown. I think that is one of the issues with dead hard, it allows survivors to completely ignore the healing mechanic part of the game and focus more on generators if they are good enough. It also absolutely wrecks m1 killers.
Not even Sprint burst can do that; not to say that this perk is weak.
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It is a third health state against nurse.
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In my experience, sprint burst survivors generally tend to be weaker survivors at looping and I believe this is because survivor that rely on sprint burst rely heavily on holding shift-W which means that they rarely get chased from being so far ahead of the killer. Not saying this fact, Speculation.
I doubt many players that play killer take much issue with Sprint burst. A big reason is that sprint burst is very predictable perk in its trigger activation in many cases and another reason is that many killer powers counter sprintburst and render it ineffective. Mobility killers such as Blight, Wraith, Billy, demon form Oni and many others have mobility tools to easily catch up the distance that sprint burst gives to a survivor.
You might be thinking.... well what about those slower killers such as deathslinger and huntress and nurse, so on, while it is true that sprint burst is strong against these slower killers, These slower killers hate dead hard more than they hate sprintburst which leads to my next point. Dead hard interacts with killer powers and often is second chance towards killer powers. You can think of almost any killer power in the game and almost all of the powers can be second chanced by dead hard. There are so many examples that going through all of them would take us forever. Huntress hatchers can be dead hard iframed, Trapper traps, Demogorgon lunge, Plague's red corrupt puke, Doctor's shock, Deathslinger's gun. The list is practically endless. Sprint burst does not interact with killer powers. Dead Hard is more frustrating for most killer players to play against compare sprint burst because dead hard is second chance towards killer powers.
The final reason why I think its best perk is popularity. your average killer games looks like following:
For best exhaustion perk, you'd think you would see more sprintburst in lobbies. that's pretty good joke. dead hard x4 is pretty standard at higher MMR play. In fact, I'd argue that not seeing 4 dead hard is very surprising. that is how uncommon other exhaustion perks are and how common dead hard is. I'd say that dead hard might as well be written as default base-kit ability for survivors for how common it is. I respectfully disagree that sprint burst is better than dead hard.
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If SB was at least half close that strong as some think it would be more popular, but we have 3-4 DH users every single game. So no, i disagree with u.
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Dead Hard rewards you for playing greedy, for being outplayed and for making a mistake. It all results in what should have been a down not being a down, and the killer feeling incredibly frustrated because of it. The amount of time you can waste by a properly timed DH to a loop is severely underestimated by the countless bad players in-game and on these forums. All four survivors can use it multiple times a match, and it is incredibly common to see at least 2 per match.
Dead Hard is a busted perk, the same as Sprint Burst and it's removal of all fear of the killer because you can simply make any unsafe area safe by reaching a loop.
Nothing will ever be done, so, don't worry. :)
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You are not right. Dead Hard is the strongest fatigue skill. It not only disrupts killer timings without requiring any skill from you. Because it is activated by pressing a button and does not require a condition. Other skills don't allow themselves that much. Everyone needs conditions. Wounding is not a condition, you will still suffer in pursuit.
Let's not forget that no killer can resist him. If the survivor does it right. Neither the Nurse, nor the Spirit, nor the Filth and others will do anything. It is not normal.
Dead Hard is a problem.
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yes it is in the current game dead hard is just wayyyy too powerfull denied it give you a free jail make you get to a loop free escape of a hit invincibility denie completly some killer ect ect ect dead hard IS the most op af constant perk in the game
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I mean...why would a perk that punishes the killer for doing well and catching up to you in chase be problematic?
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It's a paradox. It can be used skillfully, but it also lets you recover from screw-ups regardless of the conditions, which I think is unhealthy design, especially if all four Survivors can be running it at once. In its current state, it's essentially an extra health state.
In my opinion, it needs a nerf so it's more difficult to use. The principle should stay the same though because I think Dead Hard itself is a cool perk.
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It's absolutely a problem, in several ways actually. @MandyTalk Please do review the 5 points below, I'd like to hear your view on this.
- When you as killer actually hit and they should've been downed, you get robbed of the hit and of downing the survivor - they should be downed, not actually get away from an actually hit. I've lost count of how many times I've hit but they don't get downed as a result of using DH. I think it's fair they don't take the hit, IF they actually avoid getting hit. Otherwise, I'd like that killers get a perk that makes can make them immune to stun, if survivors can be immune to hits.
- Can be used in situations that glitches the game physics and mechanics, which is very favorable for the survivor and to extreme detriment to the killer, like for instance DH'ing through dropped pallets.
- It rewards survivors for playing badly.
- It prolongs the chase, in my opinion, unnecessarily.
- The more players in the match that use DH, the more it potentially further aggravates the above and the side note below.
As a side note, which only makes DH even more of a problem, the killer, at this point in the game's life, it depends entirely on survivor mistakes and especially if played competitively rather than casually,. If there is even a slight chance that a survivor can erase a mistake with no consequences, that is powerful. Extraordinarily. Powerful. - Which they can with Dead Hard as it is currently and have been for years!
Post edited by Incarnate on0 -
the only problem of new deadhard is when killer scammed, there far longer distance than before
they didn't fixed dead hard, just buffed when it was balanced
but still i think sprint burst is better so its bad for you because i don't play killer now
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It just needs a condition. Like Lithe needs windows this needs something you have to plan for.
Being injured is not something you have to plan for. The killer will do that for you eventually.
Even making it useable only once per injured state would make all the difference
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Okay. Except I can play around Sprint Burst. If the Survivor SB's away from me for distance at the beginning of the chase, I've sunk very little time and resources into said chase. I can leave and find someone else or I can come back when their SB is on cooldown and catch them out of position.
With Dead Hard, it comes into play after I've sunk time and resources into a chase and can no longer afford to leave. I've already committed 25 seconds (100 seconds of gen time) to chase this guy and he would have gone down if not for this perk, now, I have to either leave them (which means I've lost pressure) or commit to chasing him and likely lose another 20 seconds (80 seconds of gen time). The difference one Dead Hard can make is massive. At whatever MMR I play at (which I assume is high but idk for sure) it can lose you a game if a Survivor has Dead Hard and uses it correctly.
Dead Hard can be used to either dodge a hit or to gain distance to continue to loop a structure. I'm sure the data says it's underpowered because it's so popular and a lot of very casual players use it incorrectly. I imagine it will be like OoO, where the stats show one thing but we know, logically, it's something else entirely.
Dead Hard is much too strong and allows Survivors to waste far too much of the Killer's time. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if maps didn't spawn Shack ----> Jungle Gym -----> Long-Wall Pallet ------> T-L loop. It also wouldn't be such a huge issue if a 30 second (ie very fast) chase wouldn't lose you 2 gens.
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You don’t see a survivor SB through a pinhead chain. You don’t see a survivor SB through a Trappers trap. You don’t see a survivor SH through a shot by Death Slinger. It’s all Dead Hard. That no collision and distance are just ridiculous.
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I get that players have dead hard planned into their run, but when 90% of the time that means they go to from a low wall loop straight to killer shack then its not extending the chase for one more loop. Its extending it for 3 or more loops at killer shack unless you are nurse, blight, spirit, or a trapper with some cheeky trap.
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I don't use DH when playing survivor, which happens some times, but when I do, I often use sprint burst and would take that over DH any day. Both because I know how frustrating and detrimental it can be to the killer when used correctly, but also because I think SB is better because of the distance you can immediately put between you and the killer.
Yes, it was better balanced before.
In general, the game is currently too much survivor favored, and they really should tone down all of those things that help survivors, because without the killers, there won't be any matches, and more an more stop playing killers, simply because of issues like this.
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It's hands down the best exhaustion perk in the game and fundamentally changes the way killers M1 survivors in chase.
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Because it's broken and greatly imbalanced, on the borderline of being overpowered?
It's basically an additional health state that replenishes it self, which can also make you cover some extra distance (that sometimes makes the killer miss you).
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The problem is facing 3-4 in more than 50% of matches which maki it unbearable.
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Why is dead harding over a trap still a thing??
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Dead Hard is definitely a ridiculously strong perk now, it was really good before but even more so now. It is definitely frustrating from a killer's POV when your hits get stolen, just super unfun to play against especially when most lobbies have 3-4 Dead Hards because there's no reason not to play it. I'm really afraid they'll also add a "vault validation" to top it off and make killer even more miserable to play than it is ever since the introduction of SBMM, if that's possible.
That being sad, the biggest problem right now is the insane amount of hackers roaming freely, with "subtle" hackers being the worst and probably the least likely to be punished.
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of course its a problem! problem not perk!problem how work this perk and problem that devs change and keep silence that they servers super #########,better if they return old system where killer was HOST!
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Sure, dealing with hackers and exploiters have priority, but instead of keep dishing out new content they should've been focusing on actually fixing and rebalancing the game, including fixing glaring game design issues. Perhaps, while they're at it, learn how not to further aggravate an existing problem. Yeah, I don't think that will happen, because since the course of the game's life, this has always been an issue.
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Agreed.
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DH is a perk that needs to get changed, it should at least have a condition to be triggered or completely reworked. It gives too much for just pressing E. It was broken before the "fix" so obviously its even more now.
But everyone knows that, probably the devs too although they barely play their own game.. still even if they don't play they can look at all the data they collect and know that DH its in more than 90% of survivor builds probably.. Enough to be looked at, but.. balance never was Behaviour objective. They only care about money and keeping survivors happy it what gives them the most.
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Exactly, that's my take on it and BHVR as well, though I don't they actually know how to actually properly balance the game even if that was their objective, because many times when they're trying to fix it, sort of seems to be like trial and error. Which just kind of make them seem either as not competent enough or that they don't care enough to actually to make a serious enough effort.
But it's not just DH that's a problem, even just how some mechanics work creates issues because of the content they combine it with, if they tweaked some of them it would alleviate some of the problems. A good deal of the base game element designs are also inherently flawed
Take for instance - double stuns, these are possible because there isn't a stun protection mechanic, heck I think even if you time it correctly, the only limit would be flashlight energy. The perk system both due to level caps and perks slots, but also because the game is assymetrical and perk tiers represent how much potential it has to impact the match's outcome, it creates an inherent potential for game imbalance during each match, simply due to difference between the total amount of perks and their total tier levels vs. the opponent's, which only further aggravated by the difference being bigger. The mechanic with how the survivors progress their objective - to escape is mainly interacting with generator, Hex: Ruin makes this difficult to progress or at least time consuming, but they way around it, is to gen-tap which is whitelisted because they didn't know how to fix it, which normally is considered an exploit, the weird thing is, the fix for it extremely simple but that's not what they ended up doing. And gen-tapping also bypasses a killer associated mechanics - the potential for causing killer notification as a result of failing a skill check - but since you can't fail a skill check when you gen-tap, no killer notification will ever be made...and this was just a few of the issues.
Just to name a few issues here with regards to double stuns.
DS stun + Flashlight stun = Double Stun = Loss of overview and killer match progression.
Pallet stun + Flashlight stun = Double Stun = Loss of overview and killer match progression.
Flashlight stun + Flashlight stun = Double Stun = Loss of overview and killer match progression.
..so do I think they should address these issues? I most certainly do, but I don't think they ever will.
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maybe it could make you broken, and then no mither could get a big buff so people would pair it with dead hard.
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If they did anything i only say to extend its exhaustion timer so it cant be used as often. Other than that i think its fine and almost a requirement at high ranks i just wish it was an item instead so i couldnt be as clutch all the time.
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This truly does sum up the issue with the perk. This game depends on very precise mind games that both sides have to play perfectly or the other loses. DH completely contradicts that fundamental. Nothings worst than pulling off the perfect mind game, that you had to work for and sacrifice valuable gen time for, and someone going "Nope, re-do. You got me that time but I get a second chance". It's like playing chess and only one player gets to take back their last move when they're about to lose
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As I got zero dev reply about it eating powers/weird pallet-power interactions when I asked here, I opened a ticket about it.
After receiving one "we haven't forgotten about you e-mail" after two weeks, to which I responded "no problem, I know you guys are busy," i have not gotten anything back.
It's an issue that will 100% be completely ignored until it's either forgotten or blows up somehow in the future due to their current neglect.
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I feel like Exhaustion perk should be buffed like 5sec speed boost
In return you cannonly use them again once hooked.
Exhaustion is powerful because they have unlimited use if you dont tunnel them out.
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Overcome doesn't require a condition or a button then, so it's technically better.
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I...must strongly disagree here.
Dead Hard, post 'fix' (see: buff) amounts to essentially a third health state when used correctly.
There is a reason why you see it on basically every survivor that has the option.
The issue is the absolutely, 100% safe i-frames which can eat powers, befuddle killers mid chase and allow you to completely negate really good plays/surprise attacks.
The majority isn't always wrong - Dead Hard, in the right hands, is a problem.
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Sprint burst can't extended chase by another 40 seconds, but deadhard can.
How can someone not see the obvious.
Not even mentioning how it got buffed to eat killer powers.
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Dead Hard is not a problem, Hit validation is.
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I don't know which part of it i hate most, the distance it gives or the validation but of what i'm sure is that one of the two features has to go. It gives too much and require 0 skill.
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it needs a nerf 100% all I would do that IMO is reasonable is make it so it can just DH through killer powers. E.g. blight, huntress, artist, and all those killers. Nurse i would say u can DH through tho
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Imagine painstakingly exercising your guile and wit into a successful mind game, just for all of it to be instantly undone with nothing but the tap of a button. Think about it for awhile, especially from the perspective of Ghostface, better yet, try it for a week at top pool MMR. Then come back and try to tell me it felt fine/fair without grinding your teeth into stubs.
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