Interesting Otz Video
Actually surprised at the killer w/ no items/perks results
Comments
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This is interesting. Especially the part where killers play around survivor perks
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Would love to see the results without SWF modifier. Perk/addon-less soloq would be a thing to behold!
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I stand by Tru3Talent suggestion that the game should be balanced by number of Hooks instead of Kills.
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This is the ideal but campers and tunnellers would just be rewarded with easier matches and ruin the experience for new players. At least now if that stratgets them kills they'll get punished by the MMR system...
(Note: I'm not inherently against camping and tunnelling as a strategy in certain circumstances. Just at 5 gens, etc)
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Not a personal fan of Otz, but dang - semi-scientific value and humility that's not underhanded. This is good.
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You have that reversed. Campers would get less hooks not more.
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All his stuff is good, where's your beef? :(
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I thought it was interesting video, although I would like to seem him do the same test as a solo survivor... it would be an interesting look at the chasm between solo and swf, and if that affects his opinion on items, or at least how items get nerfed. I liked that he brought up the snowball of survivor mistakes, there is this circle jerk opinion on these forums that "killers can't make one mistake but survivors can make lots of mistakes and it doesn't mean anything". I've never thought this to be true and I've seen how even one missed skillcheck can tank a whole team. I just think a lot of killers aren't perceptive to these mistakes and their cascading effect.
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A missed skillcheck rarely causes a snowball. There is too much more important information the killer has to parse (GENERALLY)
An unsafe unhook from a survivor clearly tanking his teamate? Sure, that'll snowball, but at that point it's more likely the survivor in question is doing it on purpose.
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less hooks would mean their MMR would go down. meaning they'd get worse survivors. leading to more kills with less hooks, etc
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As his meaning, a fair play but high skilled killer has 10 hooks with 2k, will increased mmr. But a camper with Noed can 2 hooks with 2k, lower mmr because "hook so little".
It would reward camper/tunneler alot since so many players just go for kill to satisfy themselves.
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Thanks. It's 4am here and my grasp on the English language (and my sanity) is slipping...
<3
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I didn't mean to imply it was common, but I have seen it before, and it's always when there is one gen left. I also don't think it needs to be something as dramatic as a safe unhook, if one survivor is hooked and a nearby survivor foolishly leaves some scratch marks this can easily lead to a 4k for the killer.
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I love how he said "We all have over 5K hours on average, we are not that good".
Expecting all killers to win easily against these kind of survivors is what he actually wants. Unbelievable.
A game requiring spending years of your life, becoming acquainted with PRO LEVEL friends to have a chance at winning is not balanced. In fact, it is not fun at all to lose every match because you don't stand a chance due to killers being overpowered.
That is DBD right now.
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interesting so his win % as killer with no perks and add-ons was 14% higher then his survivor team had with out items. his killer most common result was 4k to the survivors 2 escape. sounds like killers are really much stronger then we expected. how ever I do find it kind of disturbing that he failed to put his win % as killer with perks and add-ons. but was sure to point out that his survivor team with items had a 14% higher win% then his killer with out perks and add-ons. almost as if he is trying to stir the conversation in a desired direction.
Post edited by EqMonkVeeshan on6 -
You main Nurse.
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I know it's not pertinent but I feel those numbers would be slightly different without comms. Being an SWF makes the game way easier in my opinion. No guessing, constantly aware of positioning, etc. I know SWF is more common at higher ranks but still... it should be considered skewed data because it is not possible to create a good SWF atmosphere with just the game.
In fact I'd almost guarantee that without those SWF stats it would probably show how the game is much more killer sided. As you saw the killer stats didnt change much if at all, but for SWF without items they were severely lacking. So not only does it require comms but the best gear possible on every survivor to have a better chance of winning against the killer.
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Lol
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I would really wanna see statistic instead of just kill rate with lose (0-1), draw (2), win (3-4). I wonder how much lower it would go...
I really liked that video and he has some good points.
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Yeah except there's 0 way to balance that way. His idea of "we survivor did 40% of our objective while the killer just did 8%" is absolutely flawed.
Killers can win with just 4 hooks, survivors cannot escape by repairing only 1 gen. Killers can bypass their objective, survivors cannot and we don't even have to take into account extreme situations of 1 hooking everyone.
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Survivor meta - loop wood at mediocre level, use meta perks + items, hold M1 insted of wasting time walking around
Sluzzy - you need thousands of hours to be able to do this
Nobody expects average players to play at level of 5k+ hours SWF survivors but to do well they don't need to. Just mediocre clever gameplay is enough to beat almost all killers but that is still too much to ask.
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I love how you never break the character here.
How is your road to 50k blink attacks going btw?
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Sluzz did you watch the video?
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Yeah. Its a bit weird this isn't even the case, kills are never truly guranteed but you'll pretty much always get some hooks in some manner, regardless of how badly you get stomped.
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So, Survivors need to have their end-game improved when their team ######### up (Hatch doesn't mean anything for the KBMM). Kinda like how Killer has the capability to camp last Hook. Items need to be nerfed a bit (specifically Toolboxes). And DS/BT need visual indicators.
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Balancing around hooks would be good but the matchmaking really shouldn't resolve around that.
If it did then a killer could get 3 kills with 3 hooks and go down in mmr. Meaning he faces less experienced survivors which means their camping is going to pay off even more.
Eventually you'll have a low mmr where it's infested with campers and potato survivors. And good luck getting mmr by escaping out of the gate when every match is against a camper with teammates who don't know how to deal with it.
You would create a low mmr hell
Gaining mmr means you should face stronger opponents. Usually it's because you are too experienced for who you are facing now.
But i would argue that a person who gets 3 or more kills by camping also should start facing stronger opponents who know how to deal with it
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So basically an "Emblem system" rating as well that tries to pair similarly "Engaging" players.
The ongoing MMR keeps you out of the low MMR hell, and the "Emblem system" matches you with players who engage a lot with the game.
Or basically: having kept the old Emblem System but introducing an additional MMR filter to raise up players who have a high K/D while at a low emblem score...
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You are the one always complaining about how impossible survivor is yet you were red rank, meaning your are the one wanting easy matches.
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I definitely agree with that, if it means that hooking survivors multiple times before killing them becomes a viable, but also the best strategy. So camping and tunneling need to be not very effective.
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A visual indicator for DS would just mean that everyone that didn't run it would be tunnelled for free. That's kinda why there's now an obsession in each match - the ones without were tunnel fests
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This is a buff for gathering statistics
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Hes a far better killer than survivor though so that's to be taken into consideration. Plus he plays at peak times when more chill people are on.
Interesting sure, but not that great data tbh and we already knew survivors are stronger so I'm not sure what the point of the video was lol
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In the void she sprints
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Honestly I didn't see the point of his experiment.
He picked 3 other very experienced players, and the way they made calls on comms during his stream was far beyond anything I've experienced when playing SWF with my friends. All 4 of them knew every tile of maps that they went to, split up every time and called out which pallets were gone. When I'm playing solo I get none of that. People stack on my gen even without Prove Thyself, people waste pallets and create deadzones or 3-gen situations all of the time. In SWF my friends dont call out which pallets are used and often chat about non-DBD stuff during the game.
He played those games like an absolute sweat with a cracked SWF team. If anything it just shows how unbalanced the game is when one game is sweaty and well coordinated. 70% winrate without perks or items... I don't even get that winrate with perks and items.
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Most people compare survivor perks to killer perks.
Survivor items are compared to killer add-ons though in my personal opinion, survivor items are more comparable to Old ebony moris and Ivory Mori.
Killer mori were weakened because it allowed killers to skip a large portion of hook states especially by tunneling survivors off hook granting close to unwinnable matches on survivor especially on stronger chase killers.
Otz's survivor experiment is making survivor items look more balanced than what they are. In reality, there is zero reason to not run 4 perks in the game, so if survivor use most powerful items and are swf with decent amount of skill, 84% winrate is under value of their power. It is a lot closer to near 100%. In fact some SWF have went for winrate streaks and were successful in doing so.
In my opinion, Items are not really meant to be balanced just like Moris are not meant to be balanced, they're meant to unbalanced and used for "fun" purposes. Everyone understands that winning is fun and items are designed to secure wins. Over time, all the items are progressively becoming weaker because of their instant-win properties. I imagine that eventually all the items will be irrelevant on the survivor side and will be in similar place to current moris. Toolboxes and Med-kits just are not quite there yet.
Survivor without items and perks is suppose to be worse off than killer with perks & add-ons. Ironically, its not that much worse off because of how powerful SWF is. I'm sure 56% winrate would easily go up to 70% with 4 good perks on the survivor side.
As otz mentions in the video, The reason why killer is not as bad as it should be is because killers can easily secure kills in losing matches due to imbalance of facecamping from altruistic survivors. In Q&A, they said they might look into making this strategy less powerful. The strategy in practice should not be powerful with efficient bodyblocking at hooks, but in practice many killers have hook defense pressure via instantdowns/low cooldown recovery and the lack of information in doing generator efficiently & escape makes it more effective than it should be. Killer are a lot worse than people realize base-game wise.
Its why people argue that killers are very dependent on perks and add-ons if they wish to go over many chases and play for default hook condition win though constant negative changes for killer makes this task harder and harder. This is entirely conversation between hook vs kill arguement between Tru3 and Otz
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wut?
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You "remove" DS/BT and you can get a better understanding on how the perceived unknown of DS/BT influences Killers actions at a high MMR. The assumption being that by adding a "tell" to DS/BT, it will show how ingrained these Perks are into DBD's core.
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he didnt have just a chance at winning he won 85% of the time dont be delusional sluzzy I can go 0lay with my friends rn and win like 75-80% of my games probably more if we all had good perks like bt and ds and we only have maybe 1000 hours when all added together we just know the game it's quite easy to loop killers these days for atleast 3 gens
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I think youre agreeing with me but its hard to tell... As we saw during the period with the DS bug giving no stun - if DS wasnt a thing tunneling skyrockets. If DS has a visual tell (or not) - tunneling would also skyrocket.
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"Actually surprised at the killer w/ no items/perks results"
What? You mean Killers dont have to stack 4 Slowdown-Perks to get decent results? Surprising! /s
Comms dont do much when you have experienced Survivors. If those Survivors all had 5k hours+, they know what they are doing. Sure, it will not be entirely optimized, but this is not needed. As long as you eliminate the Potatoes who waste their time doing anything but Generators or just crouch around the Map, you are immediatly in a better position as Survivor. You probably dont really have a weaklink or at least this weaklink is not THAT weak.
On the other hand, if you have a casual SWF, Comms also dont help that much. Someone who is not good at Chases will not benefit from Comms.
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Yeah and if those Perks get gutted maybe the gameplay designers will see why they're so meta and perhaps integrate them into the base-game in some manner...
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And DS/BT need visual indicators.
That's a no.
Because the game is, according to his (granted, rather minimal) data, pretty well balanced. But that is WITH DS/BT threat. If they had visual indicators, then the absence of those would immediately allow killers to capitalise and tunnel, which would improve their kill rate at the expense of survivors.
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You cant tell me that voice comms dont make the whole game trivial. This numbers would be very different without comms.
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@SleepyWillo is correct. You are reading what he said incorrectly. Because campers and tunnelers would get less hooks, they would be rewarded by staying in low ELO and be able to continue doing what they are doing against survivors that are totally defenseless against those tactics. This is why basing the MMR on hooks would fail. It would continually reward bad behavior and make the game miserable for lower level survivors who would continually have to face tunneling and camping killers. Tru3's idea would not work.
The current MMR system forces Tunnelers and Campers into higher and higher MMR until they start facing survivors that can handle those tactics. Thus a kill based MMR is better than a hook based MMR.
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Before it was "slightly different", now it is "very" different.
Sorry, Voice Comms dont make a potato godlike. And no comms dont make a good player bad.
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You're not really going anywhere with this... the proof is already there.
Now information is power in this game and everyone knows this. Voice comms do trivialize this game and make it way easier to play. Yes, in fact, a bad survivor can play better with the right information.
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I never understand your argument i this area. You always bring up trash players as a reason for poor balance while ignoring what good survivors can do.
Are you trying to tell us crap survivors can never get better so the game should be balanced around zombies that deadhard into walls?
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I did not even say that. I only talked about Comms. And I even mentioned that good players dont even need Comms to play good.
And yes, I think that Killers dont have to stack 4 Slowdown-Perks. They still do it tho, because it is the easiest way to play Killer.
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Or just a 1 minute timer for when a survivor get unhook like that you know when you can pick him up
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Meh, all he showed was that SWF (all with powerful items) is powerful which we already knew; and that SWF without powerful items will still do well (which we also knew). Also, he showed killers can procure 1-2 kills fairly easy against soloQ (which we also already knew).
I would like to see his item experiment with soloQ, though. As well as his killer numbers against SWF (i would imagine those kills wouldn't be as easy).
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