Does anyone know the ping threshold for Hit Validation to kick in?
I am not referring to grabs or pallet hits. I played killer tonight using a mobile hotspot with a ping of 270-335 ms, and none of my hits were invalidated. I noticed that if I swung near a vault, even when the Survivor had successfully cleared it on MY screen that the hit still prevailed. I'm guessing the threshold is highly generous, which is why the server never rejected my hits.
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They didn't tell us. So, it's anybody's guesses. Consider that on a dev stream about hit registration they said verbatim that 150 is a pretty good ping. Which speaks for itself and not in glowing terms.
I've 'seen' (wink wink) a test performed with a vpn from EU to Australia and I can confirm your results.
Hit validation may very well be in place, but it's so lenient it's a placebo. It maybe stops extreme lagswitching. But latency is a hefty advantage already from 120+ ms killer-side, in my humble experience.
Of course, as you mentioned, pallets and grabs work on different principles and are outside this discussion.
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You raise a good point about the devs declaring 150 to be a good ping which doesn't bode well for the devs to address the latency advantage.
What do you think the threshold is for validation to start rejecting hits? I've been on the receiving end of terrible hits, so I can't say I'm too surprised that the server rejected none of my hits. I thought perhaps some hits would be, but nothing; it was very smooth and snappy on my end despite my ping. It felt much better on a higher ping to play as The Killer, so I can see why people perhaps induce a poorer connection. There's a significant incentive to play with high ping as The Killer.
It also comes as no surprise you don't see complaints about hit validation like you do with the new pallet stun validator. They seem to have scaled that back to placate killer players.
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If you are playing against a high ping killer the literal only way to deny scary hits is if you hit them directly with a pallet, they will get a delayed stun which tells you that the server pallet worked against the super high ping killer. If you do not hit them directly with the pallet you will get hit even if the pallet fully falls down sadly that's just how it is and it was much worse before the pallet hit registration now you at least have a weapon against super high ping killers.
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Nobody knows, but as @Bwsted has said it is very lenient. And it has to be that way, because there are players who dont have a Server nearby and will never get a Server. And you cannot just make them not hit people anymore.
So the whole concept of Hit Validation is pretty failed if you cannot ensure that everyone has a good connection to a Server.
They really should display the Ping of the Killer in the Lobby, because the own Ping to the Server does not matter at all for the Survivor.
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I have no idea.
I've 'seen' (wink wink) a test that stressed someone's network into the 250 ms range and there didn't seem to be any validating going on.
It's definitely a big advantage for the Killer if their ping is bad.
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Pallets are finite, and even the devs appeared to have scaled back pallet stun check. That first week was great, very crispy pallet stuns, but now it's back to the fake hits and stuns happening.
Some people live far from a server or a jurisdiction with poor or limited internet infrastructure, but it isn't fair that survivor players have to deal with fake hits. I don't know what the solution is, but there needs to be some middle ground. Playing on a laggy connection shouldn't be incentivized to gain a competitive advantage. It's easy to see why killer players use VPN or induce the conditions for a laggy connection.
Displaying the ping would be a good first step, but they need to implement more matchmaking user options. I would rather wait for a better-connected match experience than getting dumped against someone across the sea using a VPN for another continent. The devs have been discussing creating fairer matches; allow me to disabuse them; there is nothing fair about going against high latency killers.
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This is not really a solution. You might be fine with higher queue times, but others might not.
Lets use Russia as an example, because I know for sure that there is no Server in Russia (BHVR uses Amazon Game Servers, those are not supported in Russia) and I also get matched with many Russians. My ping is usually 30-50, lets say the Russian Ping is 120. So the difference between myself and a Russian Killer is pretty big.
I might be willing to wait longer for a game to get a Killer who is closer to the Server. However, what should Russian players do? They have to wait until they have a full Russian Lobby. And they are not only waiting longer, but their quality of games will be lower - because then you have 120 Ping Survivors go against 120 Ping Killers. Which is even worse for the Survivors.
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As an option, it would be worth the wait for me. As I said, I don't know what the solution is, but the discussion about survivors getting fair matches always morphs into "but what about killer players in X location?" What about them? If you choose to play dbd, you need to consider everything.
I don't think that players with great connections should suffer unfair matches in the name of accommodating laggy players. When I play games that don't have close servers, I certainly don't expect to get a competitive advantage in them. The other problem is that players can induce these conditions to get that advantage. Maybe the edge needs to be reduced or more trade-offs in exchange for playing as a high latency killer. The current experience is both unfair and wrong; providing a significant advantage to laggy killers is terrible. MMR doesn't make the matches fairer if you're going against killers with high ping anyway.
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I just met a very cool Costa Rican streamer who is on a 500ms ping satellite internet connection, and the server never rejected his hits. The threshold for triggering SSHV must be 1000 or higher. It's unfun and exhausting to go against killers in Timbuktu that have a massive competitive advantage at my expense.
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I've been complaining about this since I started playing lmao. I'm glad I'm not the only one to have this ######### happen. The sad thing it can get even worse. I've had killers all the way from Chile! One more stone throw and you're playing with penguins.
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My experience is that the higher the ping the more advantage you have.
I played as killer a while back against survivors with the lowest ping of 250ms while the highest ping of 1 was 900+ ms.
I could even walk up against them and swing and it still didn't connect.
So unfortunately it works the opposite way as it supposed to be.
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I am very lucky to live in an area with a really good Internet connection. My ping is always very low, lower than the survivors typically have. Unforunately, because I like to play Dead by Daylight, I get far, far more than my fair share of hit validation and it is always against survivors with poorer ping than my own.
Dead Hard pretty much always fails too (although that might be more about my terrible survivor abilities than ping)
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I am convinced that there simply is no general hit validation, maybe they even lied about it and use the "threshold" as an excuse. There shouldn't be a latency threshold anyway, the server should just be the neutral authority on hit reg all the time.
I have never seen a hit be overruled by the server, yet as soon as they had implemented stun-specific hit validation, players with bad connections did actually get overruled hits when they swung through pallets ambitiously. So it's clear that general hit validation just isn't a thing in this game.
The killer latency advantage has plagued the game since launch, and unfortunately it is not going anywhere. Maybe BHVR's issue is dealing with the fact that the killer will enter the post-hit cooldown client-side, which would obviously be unfair if the hit is then overruled... but the cooldown lasts 3 seconds, the server's validation message arrives at most 300ms after the hit even in extreme cases, they can simply cancel the cooldown at that point.
The least they could do is implement more event-specific validation, for things such as Dead Hard and window and pallet vaults.
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@Ohnoes It amazes me that few discuss such a wide impacting issue. Maybe most are just accustomed to the frequent fake hits from a mile away. I wonder if Connection-Based Matchmaking is what the game needs; SBMM has some ambitious goals about making matches "fairer," but if The Killer has a significant advantage, exactly how fair is it anyway?
@Dennis_van_eijk The competitive ping advantage works one way, in favor of The Killer. If both The Killer and Survivor have high ping, things will get wonky as some hits may get rejected or validated. However, we're discussing the tremendous advantage of The Killer on a high ping versus a survivor player who has excellent ping. When these two meet, The Killer has the advantage. The exception seems to be an incredibly high ping - perhaps 501+, that number is unknown, but it is pretty generous.
@JawsIsTheNextKiller What are you saying? Your ping as The Killer is always low, and survivors with higher ping have an advantage over you? That sounds highly unusual, especially since the server still favors what the killer player sees. The only exception is when the killer players' ping is "high."
@zarr Good points, I agree. Pallet Stun changes were significant initially; pallet stuns felt crispy and responsive. However, they probably changed it due to complaints because it feels back to day one, still getting struck through pallets. The fact that we don't see myriad videos and complaints about rejected hits likely indicates that hit validation doesn't exist or is exclusive to a small segment of killer players on other planets.
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There was a big deal about an entire hit registration rework once the official servers were launched for a bit because the previous hit-reg system was extremely outdated and killer-sided. It's ironic to think now that it's transformed into a lenient mess but, like you said, they don't have much merit when it comes to latency compensation.
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Yes. I know we were told that hit validation was supposed to favour the better Internet connection but I've a funny feeling (at least for pallets) it works the same as before: favouring the poorer connection. I often hit the menu to check the survivor's ping after getting validated and it's usually from a bad ping survivor.
My ping to my ISP is 1ms, and my ping on DBD is usually at around 30ms. The survivor is often double that.
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You're conflating two different interactions. This topic is about Sever-Side Hit Validation which has nothing to do with pallet stun management or even grabs. As discussed, SSHV doesn't seem to even validate high ping hits despite devs indicating this. The official quote is, "Under normal circumstances where the Killer has a solid connection to the server, hits are still handled on the Killer’s end as they were before and you should not notice any difference."
The problem is how they define "solid connection," their definition appears to be very generous. We do know that SSHV tolerates pings as high as 500, which is terrible. Even at 150, that is a significant advantage to The Killer at the expense of the Survivor. 500 is an insane advantage.
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Ah, I see. Without wanting to get off-top too much, how DID you find pallet hits with such a high ping?
Edit: I said low, I meant high.
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The devs are moving at a snail's pace on this topic. I understand that weaning killer players off full authority with zero latency to a server-managed system is difficult to swallow but it was never fair. It's amazing survivor players endured the killer-sided authority for so many years.
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In case you're interested in pallet management: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/262994/developer-update-july-2021#latest.
In the beginning, most of my pallet stuns prevailed, but like you, I also have a great connection, so I expected that. I rarely got hit through a pallet, but then in September or so, it started to revert to the old experience where I was getting hit through them again. I remember a lot of complaints about "fairness" and how frustrated killer players were that the server rejected their duly earned hits. So I think the devs opted to water down pallet management rather than educate players about network and latency. The complaints almost don't exist anymore is a tell-tale sign.
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I have been "raving" about this ridiculously unfairly one-sided hit system for years, but unfortunately to no real avail. Back when they first started implementing the dedicated server architecture I was elated and convinced that with it, a server-authority hit system would finally enter the game. I mean, that's the biggest reason to switch to dedicated servers for to begin with, to not have the game server be run on one player's PC anymore, since that creates unfair advantages and exploit potential. Yet as it of course turned out, the hit system (one of the most integral game functions) was and still is being run on the killer client exclusively and authoritatively. More than a year after the switch to dedicated servers, they finally started talking about wanting to implement server-sided hit validation, and I again got my hopes up. It took them roughly another year to get to a stage where they started testing such a validation system in PTBs, and then more months of intermittent live tests before they finally said they would enable it on live servers for good. But apart from some weird bugs that prompted them to disable the system again for some time, nothing changed.
That said, while I do think that there's simply not a single line of code actually doing anything in terms of general hit validation and that they more or less lied about it (I assume initially they did actually implement something they thought could validate hits server-side, then saw that they couldn't make it work, took it out, but never took back their statements about how hit validation was now in the game), stun-specific hit validation does actually seem to work well still. I have had overruled hits as killer myself and as survivor still frequently get pallet stuns I know I would have gotten hit through in the past (and sometimes my opponents are streamers and I can even confirm that they actually got their hit overruled). I would not rule out that they've since added a killer ping threshold to it though.
Either way, precisely because stun-specific validation does work, it is clear that general validation does not. And I don't believe there's a threshold for that, not even an unreasonable one (and of course, anything above 100ms would already be unreasonable). I have had lagswitching killers that got hits literal seconds in the past, so yeah, at that point not even players from other planets would be subject to validation, ha.
Like you, I find it pretty crazy that this game has had this ridiculously unfair and unhealthy hit system that benefits the killer for any latency in their own as well as their opponent's connection for years, and without constant backlash from the community. The introduction of dedicated servers has in fact made it even worse, since now there are entire regions without local servers the players in which thus have to connect to remote servers 80+ms away, whereas in the peer-to-peer past they could obviously connect to each other at low latencies. Russia and Middle-Eastern regions for two huge examples.
I've had people tell me that killers should have this advantage, but that is of course the most ridiculous stance. It cannot possibly be a balancing tool because the extent to which a killer player benefits from it ranges from not at all to tremendously, the worse their or their opponent's connection is. And then it is also exploitable by artificially inducing latency (VPNs, laghacks, etc.) or artificially injecting hits, and it isn't even something survivor players can account for because they do not know what the latency of the killer is. The hit system has to be as fair as possible, and that can only be achieved if the server is the most neutral authority judging whether something should or should not connect. Yes that means killer players with worse connections will have to get used to more frequent overruled hits and going for less ambitious, last-pixel lunges on their end, but survivor players with bad connections will still suffer as well and will still have to account for their latency too - it will be equally unfair.
I'm not holding my breath though - the implementation of stun-specific validation was a nice surprise, and I'm glad it's here, but it's obviously only a small portion of the hit system; they seem to have given up on making the system overall fair, and that after years of saying they were trying to. The very least thing they could do is give survivors a ping indicator for the killer (in the lobby or at the absolute least in the trial), but they won't even do that. So yeah.
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@zarr , I was so excited about dedicated servers until it turned out to be a nothing burger. I thought they would continue to iterate on hit validation, but they haven't spoken about it in over a year or longer? The devs seem to be in bed with high latency killer players on this front. I remember how sympathetic they were about killers getting denied hits and how unfair that would feel. Yet no expressed sympathy about the survivor's perspective. It amazes me so many believe the devs favor survivors.
The topics about hit fairness go nowhere because killer players know they have an advantage, and the few who participate leave because they can't address the facts. They've become so delusional that their hits should always prevail. Many have no idea how latency works and are shocked and frustrated to see hits rejected. The devs need to incrementally increase the threshold for SSHV to kick in then switch to fully server authority; this will help wean killer players off of full hit authority.
I agree with your insightful post and hope things change. As a killer, it doesn't make sense to play on a good connection when inducing lag provides such an advantage.
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I have since created a thread to spread some awareness regarding the hit system (https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/303696/busting-some-hit-registration-myths), and BHVR even replied, but unfortunately they still seem dead-set on the "favour the shooter" (which in DbD's case of course means "favour the killer") paradigm. They indeed appear to prefer for survivor players to have to account not only for their own but also the killer's latency (for which there is still no indicator), than for killer players to have to account for even just their own.
At least they have implemented Dead Hard validation since our last posts here, so that's a step. But yes, given that they had more than a year ago talked about wanting to take another look at how to handle hit authority altogether and to rework the larger hit system with dedicated servers in mind, it's still a rather small step.
Thanks to my tests I can however now confirm that general hit validation is actually a thing. Contrary to my earlier belief, killers can actually experience overruled hits at very high latencies, and although it's still much of a toss-up and ridiculous hits regularly happen even then, it's false to say it doesn't exist at all. The threshold actually does seem to fall around the 300ms mark. Which of course still means it's useless at combating the killer latency advantage in realistic scenarios. Basically, the general validation implementation can prevent lagswitching killers (1000+ms) from getting hits, and... that's about it. People usually don't have latencies in the 300-600ms range, and even if they do, the general validation system is still not working well and killers still benefit from such exceptionally bad connections.
DH and stun-specific hit validation still work flawlessly though, I'm grateful we at least have those now.
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i get rollback on dead hard hits at ~30ms so I honestly have no idea.
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Vaults have no validation, but for example deadhard, it does not matter what ping you have, you will always be validated and your hit and powers will be eaten.
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This raises the question of do you think we could ever get ping thresholds so that we dont get paired with players of high ping
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@zarr thanks will check it out.
@PleassBuiltInNoed not true but check out the thread zarr mentions to read up on it.
@Jetgrind I hope we do but maybe not bc people will start dodging high ping killers.
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