This game is UNFIXABLE, please STOP.
So, I keep seeing the same old "Do something about camping and tunneling" or "Gen speeds are too crazy" etc etc.
These posts are creating many pointless discussions that reach 2+ pages and would never reach any concluson. why?
Because this game works as a cycle of optimal and boring gameplay, the cycle goes like this:
The killer loads into the match, if he plays high MMR he knows that gens are gonna get done quick. if he cares about securing a kill instead of flipping a coin which would determine if the survivors will do gens fast or not, he will decide to tunnel and camp from the get go in order to avoid the high chance of this group just doing gens as almost every high MMR game.
From the other side, survivors load into the same match and they know that many killers are now tunneling from the get go, so they go and do gens really fast and try to use many second chance perks to delay the first sacrifice of the match as much as possible.
Now, why your posts are useless?
If BHVR are gonna fix somehow the tunneling/camping issue, doing 5 gens really fast will be an abusable thing by survivors that now can use it in order to crash any killer, they don't have to play nice with him.
If they're gonna fix the gen speed problem and make gens take longer somehow, they're gonna make tunneling and camping abusable and any killer knows that now he will guarantee even a 4k pretty easily cause gens get longer, if he just tunnels from the get go.
Conclusion.
In order to fix both the issues of both sides, without breaking the game for people who wouldn't play nice anyway, they must do an overhaul of the WHOLE GAME. they're not going to do that, the game is successful and they're not just going to bust their asses in order to change 2 huge mechanics, because they must change both of them altogether, not just one.
Stop with your crying posts, this is the game. play how you want and if you don't like it play another game that is more fair for both sides I guess.
P.S - Dead hard is okay now, It was so annoying to be exhausted on the ground against certain killers more than others(Looking at you, blight), making you think "why did I even bring this perk from the start if it was rendered useless?".
TL;DR: Nerfing one big complain of one side will make it abusable for the other side, while nerfing both aspects would mean changing the whole game from the core of it, which BHVR will never do.
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Or, hear me out, they could just get rid of face camping.
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Face camping can be useless, only against you it's a big issue cute bubs.
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There can be comprise/ solution on both sides if we discuss it with people who play both sides and not afraid to nerf both sides. But usually it's survivor mains blaming killer mains and wise versa without trying to understand how things work. As u do it here for example.
And Dh is not fine at all. If u think it's Ok, then play without it and compare results. Even if u play without it, it's so strong that every single killer thinks u have it and gives u time to use it and only then stabs u.
Same goes with Ds and Bt.
I have played multiple games with 0 perks and it was quite surprising experience because I could trick killer into thinking i have certain perk and he let me go cause of it. If only he knew....
Survivors currently are strong as Nurse players. They have everything to destroy lower tier killers and it pisses people who don't play Nurse. So my apologies, but crying won't stop no matter how hard u want to shut them up.
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I love to jump into locker after I was unhooked (if there is not a pallet nearby), it's super fun to watch killer wait 1 minute, when I don't play DS.
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How?
I didn't really think of any way how to fix face camping, unless you also nerf proxy-camping, which I think should be a thing.
Problem is that sometimes it's just not your fault, when survivors go near hook.
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But five year ago they tried one thing and that didn't work so it's physically impossible to ever punish camping!
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Idk about dead hard, I agree that these perks that you've mentioned are highly respeceted by killers as i played killer as well(I'm done with this game 2 days ago) but if you remove DS/BT this game will be dead pretty fast.
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The thing is that I play this game for fun.
The most fun for me is when I get to chase a survivor, switch targets, down and hook somebody (laugh at the flashlight attempts when I have Lightborn), get a good stalk as Ghostface, a sweet chain as Cenobite or more rescently a nice chainsaw as Billy.
All of the above things are not possible if I facecamp. As such I just do not do it. Sure I lose some gens and my MMR goes down but only until I hit a place where survivors are at a fitting skill level to face my playstyle. MMR is maybe not working as intended here as I get better and better at chains, stalking and chainsawing, but it is working in my favour.
Do I want some change to gamespeed and face-camping? Sure. But I believe that they are working on these issues. However they are, as you said quit complex as both top solutions (early game collapse and pausing the hooktimer) could be very much abused. However creativity knows little boundaries and they will come up with something.
As long as I can enjoy the game everything is fine for me.
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Beside the fact that BHVR has bigger fishes to fry with NFTs right now, there is merit to what OP says. The two issues are indeed related. Are they fixable? Maybe. Would they require a lot of work? Yes. Is BHVR willing to go through the hassle? Probably not (see point about NFTs).
As of now, both issues are band-aided with perks, one with slowdown/regression and the other one with BT+DS. The rest is left to RNGesus.
It would require something pretty drastic, probably. Something along the lines of (and let's be clear, I'm not advocating that this should or shouldn't happen, I'm merely pointing out what it would entail imho, which also brings up the point of how deeply that would affect the game): remove hook grabs and make a no-interference zone around the hook where killer powers cannot reach. Not just disabled, the power shouldn't physically reach as in the Entity intervenes with tentacles or something. Basically, only M1s within a certain range of the hook. The concept is that it would be possible to try to force the 1 for one, but avoid situations where there would be a 1 for none in favor of the facecamper.
Throwing a projectile? The Entity despwans it. Spamming Doc shocks? The Entity says no, your shockwave stops here, no action interrupts for you. Are you zooming around with a high-mobility power? No no no, no running inside this circle.
And so on and so forth.
The funny thing is that unless it's a pretty wide radius, or the effect lingers for a bit under conditions TBD, Bubba could still camp almost as effectively. Hilarious.
An alternative would be the cage relocation mechanic of PH applied to hooks as well. But that could be easily circumvented by many killers. PH himself can already do it.
See point about band-aiding with perks. The perk tax is their solution. Now, when you run out of perk slots to fix core design flaws, that's when the issue sparks attention.
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You have no idea how much survivors would abuse it, they would actually run to hide towards hooked survivor...
Just longer timer they tried before was abused, this would become even more stupid.
Grab remove would only nerf M1 killers, that are already not good at face-camping, so I think this one is also not good. Best face-camping killers use their powers for it, so they don't care about grabs... Maybe Hag does... but Trickster and Bubba don't care.
"An alternative would be the cage relocation mechanic of PH applied to hooks as well. But that could be easily circumvented by many killers. PH himself can already do it."
Alright, this might actually work... I didn't think of that.
Depends on range, Bubba and Trickster would still be able to stay out of range and just go there with survivor. Survivors would be pressured to unhook faster, so more grabs. Otherwise that hooks will relocate and they died for nothing. I also don't think it should work on basement hooks.
So also issues.
But I think it might be worth a try and has highest chance of success from all changes I heard so far.
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Honestly, the game needs to move into a place of circular imbalance. Yeah there are really, incredibly powerful perks on both sides. But this counters that, that counters the other, the other counters this. I think if they moved away from trying to balance the game perfectly for both sides and instead just allowed things to be fun and feel impactful that it would overall increase the enjoyment factor of the game.
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I was thinking about that PH system a lot.
What about it would work only if killer is there alone? Let's say 5 meters for 5 seconds? This would need to be tested.
But it wouldn't work, if there is also survivor.
Problem is that if it didn't and survivor on hook would get relocated anyway, 1 for 1 would become close to impossible. Unless you also remove grabs...
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Try to use many second chance perks to delay the first sacrifice of the match as much as possible!
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I don't want to remove them. I want to point out there are so strong perks that are expected as base kit. Because if u don't respect them u risk to lose and u lose just by respecting it if survivor don't have them.
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So glad I'm not the only one who understands this. The mechanics of this game are too exploitable. In order to fix the game they would have to rebuild the game from the ground up. They avoid doing that and give the game bandaid fixes hoping to fix things but they never work.
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Exactly. so what's the point of spamming this forum with the same theards?
Just accept it. I know it's harder now with high MMR especially for killer but that's what quitting is for :D that's what I did and im gucci now.
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So why are you on this forum? Just accept it...
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I was waiting for this comment.
I was just dropping my 2 cents but you'll probably won't see me here anymore. I was giving the game some breathing time to see if i'll feel like playing it again but tbh the feeling isn't coming back.
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Nah, don't hurt yourself.
Just run and never look back till you can.
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Make the killer unable to use his power by 8 meters near a hooked survivor.
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Again, super abusable. Survivors will run there on purpose.
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I love seeing the killer face camp a first hook survivor, unless that survivor is me of course. I can get a gen and a half done by myself while the killer is sitting there with his thumb up his butt. If the other survivors are also actively working on gens the gate will open in short order.
Only "fix" I could see ids dock the killer points for being within a certain range of the survivor for "x" amount of time (as long as there was not another survivor within a specific range of the hooked survivor. Could even give the poor hooked survivor "Y" amount of points for being face camped.
But over all face camping is a very bad strategy for any killer, it simply wastes too much time.
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The killer already loses points for staying too close to the hook with no survivor present, its been like this for years - since the introduction of the emblem system iirc, it just doesn't do a good job of telling killers they are losing points as this would give away that no survivors are near I guess. Its similar with unsafe unhooks; I still regularly see people 'farming' each other off hook in front of the killer and they obviouslt don't realise that if the killer downs the unhooked survivor before a few seconds have passed, they actually lose more points than they gained by unhooking.
I'm also a fan of awarding the hooked survivor 'distraction' points or something.
The way to fix facecamping though is to stop encouraging it by feeding the camper by playing exactly how they want. If survivors are going to try for an unhook before the killers back is turned or they've had chance to walk any distance away then it teaches killers to float near the hook as they know survivors are mostly incapable of leaving those juicy unhook points hanging for a few seconds in case another teammate takes them. If you play survivor with any aura reading perks you can clearly see them doing this on an alarmingly regular basis; I will be alone on a gen and can see the other 2 circling the hooked survivor with the killer visible through Kindred and inevitably one of more goes down and the game is basically over at this point as they end up just trading hook states.
Even at high MMR I've commonly seen a killer get stomped all game to get 1 at the end that turns into 3/4 because survivors wont just leave and take the win, they want absolute domination and it often costs them everthing.
I have to wonder though, how many survivors actually want to raise their MMR for harder games and just take all the points earned during the match and throw at the end so they don't get classed as 'winning' even if they've dominated all game. Heck I've even had survivors refuse to leave with the gates open so they die to EGC and not raise MMR even though they destroyed me and the match was 'over' in minutes but they waited by the exit wanting to be hooked or die to the Entity which either doesn't change their MMR despite a win, or actually changes mine as a killer who absolutely lost so it looks like I killed them and they died.
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