That the SBMM is based on kills and escapes is very good
hey folks,
To develop another system (like the current one) would take much more time. Now imagine if the developers calculated the MMR differently. Then there would be only farm rounds to achieve a higher MMR or ? and that would definitely be a pure disaster for Dead by Daylight.
BHVR has made the right decision here
Did BHVR make the right decision to tell us what the win condition is ? I don't think so. They should have kept it secret, because that might have ensured that players would have stayed true to their playstyle.
Should the developers release the secret number ? Definitely NO, cause of Toxic City.
That is only my opinion. What is your opinion about it ? Let´s discuss
greeting
Comments
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Where did they say that the mmr is based on kills and escapes? Logically, I would assume it's based on the emblem system.
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Neither kills nor escapes is a good measure of skill.
You can be a good killer and get 0 kills because you played fair with no camp, tunnel and slug and no slowdown perks.
You can be a trash killer and get 4 kills because you camped, tunneled and slugged at 5 gens with every slowdown perk in the game.
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Theres really no point in having a NUMBER to determinate your skill if you can't see it.
Theres no point to have a number to determinate your skill if you can't see if it goes up or down after a match. THAT'S BASIC INFORMATION so you can at least imagine what you did right or wrong.
Name any game, ANY GAME that has a ranking number that isn't displayed to the player.
IMO, Ranking doesn't have any place in DBD because it's not a competitive game. Do you want people to play sweaty and competitive? Give them a separate ranked matchmaker. I also don't know a single game that has a ranked match maker that doesn't have a public one.
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On the latest Faq. Kill = win, escape = win. Doesn't matter what happens in between.
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It’s slightly more complicated. The order of when someone gets killed and how long the match takes apparently also impacts how much someone gains or loses in the hidden rating. That’s because once two survivors are dead it becomes much more likely for another survivor to die, for instance, so they don’t adjust downward or upward as much on the third kill as the second. Likewise a really quick 4k or 4 escape makes the ratings go up or down more than a longer match.
But otherwise, yeah, kills and escapes are presumably the most important factors. If survivor is killed their rating goes down and the killer’s goes up, if they escape vice versa. How much it goes up or down depends a bit on the details.
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He didn't ask about numbers, he ask if kills matter. And kills/escape are only way to rise your mmr.
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Right, I was just replying to your comment that it “doesn’t matter what happens in between”.
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I'm still not sure it does. When devs or mods gave an example, they didn't mention game length.
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But what makes someone a good Killer then? Because I feel if a player is able to slug four other players before a single generator was repaired, it means they are super good at ending chases... or the Survivors were super bad.
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It wasn’t mentioned directly by the devs, there were some other posts about it though such as one from Scott Jund where people examined the underlying mechanics.
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A good killer uses the killer's power to its full potential, knows every tile/loop in and out, knows every mindgame and calculates variables in chase (i.e. exhaustion perks: survivor A is gonna dead hard to this pallet so I'll keep the red glow behind them whilst moonwalking around said pallet to mindgame them into dead harding into me).
If you camp/tunnel/slug at 5 gens you don't need to understand a lot about the game as you merely rely on altruism. Even the best loopers can be like "oh great another no skill camper let's get this over with and trade".
Does that mean the survivor is bad because they didn't want to play another camper match and thus decided to trade allowing said facecamper to camp then slug (the unhooker) and tunnel the unhooked ? It means nothing regarding skill. Any ape can do it.
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So the killer needs 2 kills to "be on par", with no up or down movement by this logic. Did I understand correctly?
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Well you opened the door when you said name any game that doesn't doesn't show the ranking number 😂
I know 1 game we all know, and that is dbd 😜😂
That is if you mean the MMR añd not the grades tho, as grades are useless now.
On your comment on that dbd isn't competitive.
When playing dbd you get match with people of the same ranking (i mean the mmr here which they don't show), which already makes it competitive.
Another fact that dbd is competitive.
When you place 2 teams against each other, you create a competition.
Don't get me wrong here as you can disagree all you want, but that is the truth.
No matter how you look at it, 2 teams competing against each other is a competition.
And that makes dbd a competitive game, even if you play it casual it's still remains a competition 😉
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So if I get 8 hooks every game, which is a guaranteed black pip (or single/double pip at lower grades), and pleasing the entity. It would force my mmr to go down, even though I am winning?
So if I ensure to perform an array of objectives (repairing, healing, saving, cleansing, escaping chases), but choose to sui in the end. Which ensures I get a single or double pip. Or sacrificing myself to ensure the other 3 survivors survive. Forcing my mmr to go down, even though I am winning?
No. Having the mmr system based around kills and escapes - is actually the stupidest thing ever, and I am surprised anyone at BHVR thought that was a good idea. I am even more surprised after it went live, nobody got fired for it, and they literally announced it like it was a good idea.
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More or less yeah, 2 kills and 2 escapes would mean your rating doesn’t change too much. It would change a little, though, simply because the amount the killer goes up or down for each survivor depends on their relative ratings to each other. If you kill a higher rated survivor your rating goes up more than if you kill a lower rated survivor, and vice versa for escapes. So between that and timing possibly influencing it as well means your rating will still probably change slightly one way or another on a 2 kill match depending on the exact ratings and details.
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Got it. Appreciate the reply, thank you.
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But if those 2 kills were on survivors of higher mmr with you, then your mmr goes up, if either were significantly higher then you, then your mmr goes up. If the only kill you get in a match is a survivor with significantly higher mmr than you - your mmr will go up. If the survivor escapes/dies is close to mmr with you there isn't much of a change, and if the survivor who escapes/dies is lower mmr than you you're mmr will go down.
In most cases for Killers if you get at least 1-2 sacrifices your mmr will go up.
In most cases for Survivor your mmr will remain in the center unless you mostly play in swf's where you escape back to back 10-20 times. Because players tend to die a lot when playing solo.
So Killers normally gain mmr, solo survivors will normally stay the same or go down in mmr, and swf will normally gain mmr.
This is assuming average to good players. It's a terrible system.
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Escapes and kills mean nothing. Old ranking was better, just had to move us further back each reset.
Going from rank 4 to 5 for is silly, no wonder everyone got red ranks lol
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So by your logic.
I repair 2 gens, rescue and heal 3 survivors, got 3 pallet stuns, lost the killer twice, i got downed by noed and died. That should mean i shouldnt rank up.
Blendette hides all game, never touch's a gen, never gets chased, never rescues a fellow survivor, got out the exit gate someone else opened. They deserve to rank up.
Im having trouble seeing the logic here.
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Actually it’s probably false that your rating goes up with only 1 kill, in fact it probably goes down unless the person you killed happens to be higher rated than you and the people who escape are all lower rated than you. In normal circumstance 1 kill means you go up a bit from that but then go down three times for the three escapes. And typically your kill won’t be the highest rated survivor either since they’re probably the best on their team at escaping, instead your kill will more often be one of the weaker lower rated survivors so the boost you get will be small from it and you’ll still lose rating for the other three.
So no, killers don’t “usually gain rating”.
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You can but it's a self-healing system (for the most part).
The crappy camping 4K'ing killer will rise in MMR and eventually get stomped by high level SWF teams pushing him back down. The skilled killer that lets survivors escape won't be forced into sweatier matches though. But then again they are probably letting people escape for that reason.
Survivor MMR on the other hand, is something different entirely. The only way to progress in survivor MMR is to play selfishly once the match is down to 1 gen left. This should probably be looked at to make may (2gens+2saves=1escape).
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This has nothing to do with logic. These are facts and facts are important. You don't seem to be able to deal with them, but that's not my problem, it's yours. Would you rather calculate the game on an emblem basis with MMR ?.......
For God's sake. I'm glad it's not, because that would be a disaster for DBD and there would only be farm rounds. That would be boring and extremely detract from the game experience.
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I like to write it again 1. ranks are dead ( there are only grades ) 2. emblem/pip/grade system are separate from the SBMM to consider because these have nothing to do with the MMR. Some players still don't seem to have fully understood this.
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Then we agree to disagree, good day.
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Fair enough 🤷♂️
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I think you don't get along with the name SBMM because the word skill is hidden in it and you understand something else by it. Calling a killer scum just because he defends himself with the means available in the game is questionable. In a game like DBD, a different calculation would be possible, but it would only lead to problems. That's why I think it's fine the way it is now. The only thing I notice is that some of the players are frustrated because it is called SBMM and has no other name. ( it's about escapes and kills but S stands for skill and for some players kills and escapes have nothing to do with skill).
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It's got everything to do with logic. Where is the logic in saying it's SKILL based when you can repair three gens, do four hook saves, run the killer for five minutes, but because you died your MMR goes down.
Whereas the player who crept around the map and did nothing and got to walk out the gate gets their skill rating raised just because they escaped.
You say that's a good system. It's complete garbage. At least the old matchmaking system took into account a player's contributions during a match.
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The kills and escape system is objectively terrible in a game like this no matter whether they release those details or not.
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Yes I know that. I said the old system was better. You know the system where it judged what you did in the trial and not just the outcome.
You know in the trial where all you skill is shown. Saying kills and escapes is a good system is silly. Hooks are vastly more important and show how the game went and chases and gen efficiency are most skillful for survivors.
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What a lot of people are getting wrong is that mmr isn't an indication of your skill but what the skill of your opponent should be.
A killer who can get 3-4 kills by facecamping each hook should start facing better survivors
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exactly !!! but most people don't understand that. They simply relate everything to the word skill
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Old system was much better at judging skill, it took into account everything, not just living which is the worst way to judge if a survivor is good or not.
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What you don't seem to understand is that the system is thus assigning negative consequence to people who succeed - because having to sweat, in either role, is not particularly enjoyable for a vast crowd - and in the current climate of DBD, that's putting a lot of us who succeed against hackers on a daily basis.
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I ask you: do you want the hooks to be much more important and show how the game went, and do you want the chases and gene efficiency to be the most skillful for survivors ? ..... well then good luck with "Farm by Daylight"
(Hey, I farm hookz or make gens, because I want to achieve high MMR) THAT AND ONLY THAT, IS TOTAL STUPIDITY MY FRIEND. I hope you understood my post now.
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What does this have to do with hackers and why should people sweat ? If they want to stress themselves, let them do it. I don't do that because I don't care about the MMR. It is not important how high you are in the MMR. You can't see the hidden number anyway.
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What's nice about it is that the criteria is so simple, that is easy to manipulate my MMR to be where I want to be.
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Whether you want to admit it or not, SBMM as implemented in DBD doesn't exist in a vacuum. The online space is riddled with hackers - who can both see and manipulate MMR - who are rewarded by the overly simplistic MMR system. Escapes/Kills are not and have never been a decent measure of skill, which the DBD devs acknowledged the first time they tried this system; which they scrapped, citing its failure.
As things stand, success in the game, for either role, raises MMR. Thus, those who succeed legitimately are being uplifted right alongside and toward the tiers of MMR which hold the most hackers.
You liking the system is fine. It's been a success for some. Pretending that those successes aren't isolated incidents, subjective, and unrepresentative of the whole is just dishonest.
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It's not a "skill based" system, but it is a "results based" system, and in that sense it is an effective way of matching players together so that everyone has an even chance of killing/escaping.
If it was still entirely secret, I think it would be working fine. Users would presume that it does measure skill in some way, and the results would be convincing enough.
But now people are gaming the system, getting 8 hooks then letting all survivors go, or camping for one-hook kills. It makes no sense because MMR itself isn't a reward system in any sense, and any intentional deviation you try to inflict will just be undone when you start to play normally anyway.
I think everyone should just ignore MMR entire and pretend there is no matchmaking system, play normally and it would all work out fine. Unfortunately it serves as a convenient scape goat for unpleasant games
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The emblem system might be a better judge of skill, but the rank system was not a better form of matchmaking. The matchmaking now is loads better than it used to be.
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I wish mmr would factor in gens done during match, because 90% of my games that are loses im usually the one who does the only 2-3 gens before I'm sacrificed. Such a joke sometimes in solo q.
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That's only because the old ranking was so bad in terms of resetting and how easy it was to safety pip etc.
This system will be the same, give it long enough and all people will start to climb like before but now it's based on escapes rather than skill.
Iv always played at a high level and always had sweatt af games. I do like mmr atm apart from the Escaping and shared mmr, I hate how a killer iv never played will be placed super high lol
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Of course, if coming up with the system based solely on kills and escapes took them TWO YEARS, then yeah, developing a proper system would take too much time.
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Umm no. Farming isnt fun, people play for fun. Hardly anyone one just turn to farming to get higher mmr.
That's just a stupid concept, we cant balance around actual skill because someone might farm.
Well those farmers would verse non farmers and struggle and lose. However having someone like me who can do insane chases go down in mmr and verse worse and worse players is bad.
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Basing the MMR system on kills and escapes is obviously fine- it's obviously the best thing to make the primary decision maker, because it's measuring whether you won or lost. I agree with whichever developer was- spending three hours running the killer and doing heals and getting safe unhooks is great, but wouldn't it be great if you could do all of that and not lose?
There is, however, one problem that I think they can fix with a little bit of elbow grease. Currently, the system seems to work that it has caveats which "soften" the loss of MMR if you lose, if you're the last one to die or if your opponent was a higher skill rating than you, things like that. I think the system should also soften your loss if you performed really well on the emblem system, or if you got a lot of bloodpoints, one of the two. Basically, if you play very well then lose at the last second, your loss should be lesser than if you played horrendously and died first.
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Ever since they said that mmr is based on escapes I've seen survivors be way more selfish
I guess the Devs are encouraging selfish play more
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There's a couple of problems with your theory. Firstly the already spent two years to come up with a system that should have taken two minutes. Secondly, it doesn't actually work. Plenty of great survivors have low escape rates. Plenty of great killers will have low kill rates.
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YES. I would rather calculate the game by the older emblem system. At least with that system, people who did nothing didnt rank up. The fact is the new system is terrible. The old one wasn't good but it's better than what we got now.
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If the MMR system was going to be based solely off kills and escapes and nothing else, then they should have just kept the old system.
I’m not defending the old system at all btw - it was bad. But not as bad as what we have now.
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Why should the current system be worse than the old one ? The old one was not good, true. But. with the current one the matches are more balanced
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What you claim is simply not true and has nothing to do with theory. These are facts and facts do not lie.
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