One way to limit OP survivor builds

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JPA
JPA Member Posts: 1,685
edited November 2021 in Feedback and Suggestions

When you think about a video game which is balanced or near-balanced, what is it that makes it balanced?

One of the key things for me is that expectations within the game are clear and there are no "surprises" once you learn the game.

If I'm playing Age of Empires IV, and I see I am playing against the English, I know what the English can do, and know that they might go for a early longbow rush. I'll make decisions in my gameplay based around this.

If I'm playing Team Fortress 2 and I see a Sniper across the map, and I am a Scout, I know I will probably lose a shootout, as I know the capabilities of his class against mine, at range. If it is close range, I know that I'll probably win that engagement. I'll make decisions in my gameplay based around this.

With Dead by Daylight when you start chasing a Survivor, you have no such indication of what you are playing against, often until it is too late.

Sure some perks are a given at this point, I know when chasing someone who is injured I probably have to painfully wait 2-5 seconds before hitting them, as there's probably a 70% chance they have DH. I know if I'm approaching someone unhooking, I should go for the unhooker, OR wait 12 seconds before going for the person hooked, as they probably have BT protection.

Basically there is a correct way to play most situations, whether it is slugging/not-slugging, choosing which gen to pressure, and choosing which survivor to chase at any point. This correct way is determined by making judgements of which players have which perks and what perks they are likely to have hidden to this point. If the survivors are also all wearing the same skin, well good luck I guess?

Then you have perks which are used less, which might make a situation play out very differently. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing perk diversity, but sometimes these perks work simply because the Killer would not think you are running them.

I remember a hard fought game I lost on the Silent Hill map. The last two survivors were slugged, I basically had to just hook them at this point. I was still new to DBD, but I knew about DS, so I instantly knew to pick up the least recently hooked person. Well in this case they had soul guard, they stood up just in time, tanked a hit, picked up the other person, and they both ran out of the gate (of course, with a teabag and "ez clap" in chat for no extra cost).

In this situation, the correct play was to not pick up the recently unhooked person as they probably have DS. Up to this point I don't think I'd even saw Soulguard, so you can imagine my rage at the time. I think the correct play I guess was to leave the survivors slugged, or get to the soulguard player quicker. In the absence of soul guard though (i.e. most games) I feel my play was correct.

Another game I remember losing, another hard fought game on a farm map as a Huntress. I had a slug near a closed gate, and knew the location of the other 3 survivors. I think it was a correct play to leave the slug, as to this point he had not used unbreakable, and I wanted to pressure the other survivors. I chase the other guys, one of them has For the People, they get the insta pick up and everyone escapes. Again, first time I've ever seen this perk, so I was annoyed. Do I now have to play around this in the future, or should I basically continue as if no one is running this perk?

Basically my problem is that, due to the fact any survivor can run any perks, the "correct" way to play any engagement is always up for debate.

Making Survivors more predictable

I think that if Survivors had limitations on their potential perks, it would reduce this issue somewhat.

Imagine if each Survivor could only run 1 or 2 perks from other Survivors, and the remaining slots must be their own Adept perks. I feel this now cuts down on the OP builds any Survivor can run, and adds some element of predictability to the game.

E.g. if I see a David, I know he's probably going to have DH. If I see a Bill, slugging him is a risk (UB), and I can also assume he probably has BT.

You can still get some powerful builds, e.g. a Bill could run UB, BT, DH and IW.

But you can say goodbye to everyone running a meta build, and if you see a team of 4 Bills then you know you are probably playing a full-meta team and should probably play hard.

But like when playing TF2, simply by seeing a character, you know what tactics you have to use instantly, but the Survivor still has 2 perk slots to have creative builds and come up with some unexpected plays.

Post edited by Rizzo on
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Comments

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    I doubt you even read the full post, given length of the text and the fact you responded in less than a minute.

    But thanks for bringing this intellectual discussion! Keep on contributing.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    What build do you need to run in order to win in Solo Queue?

    For me I usually use Kindred, which means I could run that on any Survivor, under my proposed system. Other than that it is usually DH and Windows. I could still run this on any character, or play David and Jane. I still have one perk slot to choose whatever I want.

  • legacycolt
    legacycolt Member Posts: 1,684
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    I’m always trying to be unpredictable as survivor and it helps me a lot to survive.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    Well by unpredictable I'm assuming that means you are not running a pure meta build, so your builds might still be achievable under this system, but not sure.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    Yeah I know it is never going to happen, given that people already have their "mains" and much of the profitability of the game is tied to skins and customization. Just trying to dream I guess.

  • Marigoria
    Marigoria Member Posts: 6,090
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    Oh I did. What your post means is that people would only be playing survivors who have at least a good perk.

    As someone who mains Quentin and all his perks are garbage, I would have to main someone else so I wouldnt have a garbage perk in my layout that I do not need.

    Like we do not see enough of the same survivors already, while some almost no one plays them... That would just make it worse.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    I don't think it is a fair comparison because:

    • There are 4 Killer perks, so each survivor only has to figure out 4 perks (or 1 each if it is SWF). Not to mention that the main slowdown perks are immediately obvious if they are in use (Corrupt/Ruin are easy to spot, Tinkerer/Discordance less so I guess)
    • There are 4 survivors so the Killer has to figure out 16 perks in total, add to this that the Killer also has to deal with the same characters being ran which complicates this
    • Much of the counterplay for the Survivor is based on the Killers power, it isn't hard to figure out who the Killer is. As a Killer, pretty much all strategic decisions need to be made around perks, and many of these perks have no indication until they are used.
  • lordfart
    lordfart Member Posts: 538
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    I don't like this idea my favourite perks to run are from 4 different survivors (Jake, Kate, Quentin and Meg) :(

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    As a Quentin you could still run DS and UB. Or DH and Windows. Those two perks will get you a long way. You just don't get to also run Iron Will and BT

    At a high MMR sure, you would start seeing more of the same characters, only amongst the tryhard echelons though and everyone would be running Bill and David.

  • Chilli_man2400
    Chilli_man2400 Member Posts: 2,882
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    It’s not the same it’s one killer vs 4 survivors I think what he’s trying to say is when you load into a match let’s say 2 survivors have DH/DS/UB/IW no body else can use those perks cause 2 survivors are using them already. I think that’s what he’s trying to do

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    As a Survivor you are usually strategising around a Killers power, as much as you are playing around the perks. Plus you only have to figure out 4 perks. The Killer has to figure out and play around 16 perks.

    On the skins point, yeah I don't see this idea being feasible because people already invested into "mains". I guess I'm wondering for peoples opinions on if this was in DBD 2 or a remake lol

  • Marigoria
    Marigoria Member Posts: 6,090
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  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    It's not though, you still have to figure out and play around 4 perks, compared to 16 for the Killer.

    Not to mention the fact that some perks tend to always or never be ran on certain Killers, which isn't the case for Survivors.

  • lordfart
    lordfart Member Posts: 538
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    Also the unpredictability of each DBD match is what has drawn me in and kept me here for years now. Some things have gotten pretty stale so when I come across survivors running some weird ######### that confuses me in the game because I'm not used to playing around it, I get real excited. Having a more predictable idea of what you're gonna be up against in this game is like... the antithesis of fun for me

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    I hear you

    I like diversity in perks, and I'd love to see nerfs and buffs put in place to encourage a wider diversity of perks to be used.

    Also, I think at its core DBD is not a competitive/balanced game, it is a game about creating fun and tense situations, and the unpredictability adds to this.

    I just feel like limiting the Survivors to being more like "classes", by limiting their perk choices, would be one way to make the game take steps towards being truly balanced and competitive.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976
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    This is a terrible idea on so many levels.

    Destroys creative builds. I love playing the houdini build q&q, lithe, dance with me and deception. Superfun. Wouldn't be possible anymore cause those are all perks from different survivors

    Wouldn't even solve the issue you're trying to solve. Bill has 2 meta perks. So pick him and the meta is still there.

    Increases the grind even more. Only for people who want to play around with different builds though. Those who only play meta can just use the survivor who has the most meta perks. All the rest needs to level up every single survivor if they want to get creative with their builds.

    Sorry but just a horrible idea on so many levels. There are only a handfull of truelly op survivor perks left. Just adjust those and let those who want to have fun with different builds have fun

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    I agree thats probably the main issue. I feel there's a few key small changes which could contribute to the game over my suggestion here:

    • remove the ability to tap gens so a Survivor has to spend time starting a gen (much like the Killer takes 3 seconds to kick it)
    • make the exit gates regress so survivors actually have to make a tactical decision on going for the hook or going for the exit gate
  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    "Destroys creative builds"

    True that

    "Wouldn't solve the meta issue"

    It kinda does though because you know if you see 4 Bills you at least know what you are in for and can play hard from the outset

    "Increases the grind even more"

    Not really, as less builds are viable so there's less reason to even grind. The grind remains the same for unlocking specific builds.

    "Sorry"

    aint no thing, your response is constructive and I can take that

  • lordfart
    lordfart Member Posts: 538
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    I like that you're tryna brainstorm ideas for making this game better though instead of an unproductive rant! You're not wrong about balance being a doozy I just can't think of anything better than what you're suggesting :c

  • Labrac
    Labrac Applicant Posts: 1,285
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    On a solo team I think it's fine, but on a SWF they should limit survivors to only 2 of the same perk. Playing on a SWF is already a huge advantage, and then some of them still feel the need to equip 4 Dead Hards, 4 Iron Wills, 4 DS and 4 BT.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,402
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    Imagine the poor poor Hags and all their hexes in these boon boom times...

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    the problem here I guess is you then have the game working in totally different ways based on if its SWF or not, and if it doesnt indicate to you it is SWF then we're back to square 1 of having no idea if survivors are running all perks, or if the game is in "SWF mode" and they have limited builds

    Although I agree with you that this is more of an issue with SWF

  • EvilJoshy
    EvilJoshy Member Posts: 5,295
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    As much as i feel the survivor meta needs a shakedown, making them share perks will just further prove what we all know.

    Solo sucks + swf op

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531
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    The main problem is a lot of these perks have to be secret or else they’ll be terrible. If I slug someone and they have a tell they have unbreakable I’ll just pick them up

  • Kurri
    Kurri Member Posts: 1,599
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    Like these people are not even trying anymore to hide that they are only coming on the forums to sabotage discussions so the game stays survivor sided -_-. They don't read the posts, and they just say whatever it takes to make Killer problems look like a non-issue.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    I think to an extent this already happens, e.g. it is considered risky to leave a Bill slugged.

    That's precisely my problem though that gameplay as a Killer is basically playing around these perks and a guessing game. In collectible card games this is why seasons exist, bringing cards in and out of being "active". This limits the scope of potential strategic decision as there is a limited pool of cards the opponent can potentially play. There is no such thing with DBD perks, and each time more perks are added, this problem gets progressively a bit worse. Although thankfully everyone plays the same 3 perks anyway so I guess it's not much of a problem.

  • Rey_512
    Rey_512 Member Posts: 1,620
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    I think a better idea would be for the killer to be able to see which exhaustion perks the survivors are using (if any) from the pre-game lobby.

    It won’t be a big secret once you’re in the game so may as well let the killer prepare for those.

  • BenZ0
    BenZ0 Member Posts: 4,125
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    by "usable perk" you mean not absolutely busted that carrys you every single game?

  • Lochnload_exe
    Lochnload_exe Member Posts: 1,360
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    Make the game more predictable? That kind of takes away from the point of what the game is, by you not knowing what you could be going against in each match and adjusting your playstyle midgame. You can't really compare it to shooters or civ games lol

  • Mistikus
    Mistikus Member Posts: 1,348
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    are you on high dear

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    I can compare it to any game I like if we are discussing balance. Typically you wouldn't compare shooters and RTS games anyway but I was trying to make a general point around what balance means to me.

    But yeah given its assymetric nature and lack of competitiveness, maybe I'm trying to shoehorn something into the game it should not be

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    What's high? Did you mean to say "on a high", cause that would be very funny and ironic if your message saying so was mistyped

  • Lochnload_exe
    Lochnload_exe Member Posts: 1,360
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    Balance is trying to make the game more fair in the middle ground, nothing that is just abusable op, and nothing that is extremely weak and pointless. Besides a couple weak perks, the game doesn't really have anything like that, there are definitely weaker and stronger things, like in most games, but a large point of dbd is that you approach how you play in game, seeing as map layouts (beside a couple) are rng, spawns are rng, and what the survivors AND killers could bring, looking at the lobby and knowing what to do takes away from a large part of the game. Sure in a class based shooter, if I see the long range character, short range will beat them and etc. In dbd, the biggest form of this is just seeing the killer and knowing how to play around them, but other than that it is about adapting mid game.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,080
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    I mean usable. Vast majority of survivor perks are garbage, either having no output value or being so damn situational that they hardly ever fire.

  • Dwigtht
    Dwigtht Member Posts: 462
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    > E.g. if I see a David, I know he's probably going to have DH. If I see a Bill, 

    > slugging him is a risk (UB), and I can also assume he probably has BT.

    > You can still get some powerful builds, e.g. a Bill could run UB, BT, DH and IW.


    But people willingly do this already. When you play against Davids -- you know they most likely have DH. David with sprint burst is a shame.

    When you see, Bill -- they most likely have UB and BT. I've tested this many times intentionally slugging Bills -- yep, most of them have UB :)

    Those perks "OP" are not OP at all when you play against solo Q.

    4 man SWFs on comm are the only OP thing in this game. They know each other's perks. They coordinate saves and gens.

    This is OP. Huge advantage just for free. They can synergize their perks, so as a killer you are not playing with your 4 perks against the survivor's 4 perks when you are in chase, you are playing against 16 perks, teammates taking hits, flashlight-saviors in the bushes and head-ons in the locker where you have just downed the survivor.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    Every Bill running BT means nothing, EVERYONE runs BT, it's not just Bills. Every Bill runs BT, yeah, but practically every survivor beyond a certain rank also runs BT, despite it being a teachable.

    I never said these perks were OP tbh. I said the builds were OP. Even if you are in solo Queue I still feel something like DH/Deliverance/UB/DS can be used in a way that is OP.

    Solo players can still potentially run BT AND DH on any Killer. It just means you don't also get to run IW and DS at the same time...

  • BenZ0
    BenZ0 Member Posts: 4,125
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    You mean just as DS, Adrenaline, Unbreakable etc? They are also situational just like the other 70% of the perks.

  • Hoodied
    Hoodied Member Posts: 12,994
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    "If I'm playing Age of Empires IV, and I see I am playing against the English, I know what the English can do, and know that they might go for a early longbow rush. I'll make decisions in my gameplay based around this.

    If I'm playing Team Fortress 2 and I see a Sniper across the map, and I am a Scout, I know I will probably lose a shootout, as I know the capabilities of his class against mine, at range. If it is close range, I know that I'll probably win that engagement. I'll make decisions in my gameplay based around this.

    With Dead by Daylight when you start chasing a Survivor, you have no such indication of what you are playing against, often until it is too late."


    You just compared an Asymmetrical Game to a hero shooter and a real-time strategy game

    DBD's gameplay does not do well as a hero shooter, and its not a real-time strat, its cat and mouse

  • Yogerman1997
    Yogerman1997 Member Posts: 374
    edited November 2021
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    reducing positive effects by 1/4 for each player with the same perk, and increase the cooldown by same amount.


    examples:


    DS base 40/50/60 seconds use:

    2 DS 20/25/30 seconds use.

    3 DS 13/16/20 seconds use.

    4 DS 10/12/15 seconds use.


    Prove Thyself 15% base

    2 Prove Thyself 7%.

    3 Prove Thyself 5%.

    4 Prove Thyself 3%.


    DeadHard cooldown base 60/50/40:

    2 DeadHard cooldown 75/60/50.

    3 DeadHard cooldown 90/75/60.

    4 DeadHard cooldown 120/90/75.


    CircleOfHealing base area 24 metres and 90/95/100% extra HealingSpeed.

    2 CircleOfHealing area 12 metres and 45/47/50% extra HealingSpeed.

    3 CircleOfHealing area 8 metres and 30/31/33% extra HealingSpeed.

    4 CircleOfHealing area 6 metres and 22/23/25% extra HealingSpeed.

    Post edited by Yogerman1997 on
  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,080
    edited November 2021
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    Yeah, they're situational too.

    But not Repressed Alliance situational.

    EDIT: They also all have considerably greater pay-offs.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    15 second DS ain't worth much

    The points I brought up around TF2 is that you generally know what you are dealing with due to the class/character based options. A game could be asymmetric, but have classes on one or both sides, and still be more balanced than what we have ATM.

    Just because the games are from different genres doesn't mean we cannot explore ideas and concepts.

  • JPA
    JPA Member Posts: 1,685
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    Although a DS stun lasting about a second sounds good to me lol

  • YuisPinkBob
    YuisPinkBob Member Posts: 353
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    Absolutely not.