http://dbd.game/killswitch
Any reason we dont change the game to balance for both low and high level of play?
So this is a discussion, and yes it is possible. I shall explain low and high skill for each role and then explain the changes. Its gonna be long, changes at bottom.
Low skill survivor: doesnt massively understand loops, would not run them efficiently and can quite often just wait at a pallet or drop the pallet quickly without really using the tile. Cannot link tiles, does not understand every counter to killers, dont tend to keep track of killer perks and what they can use. Not efficient on gens.
High skill survivor: understands tiles, will use the whole tile for a decent period before using a pallet, can chain tiles together, will understand killer counters and limitations, efficient on gens and knows the killer perks through elimination. Knows when to loop or hold forwards. Knows points of loops to stand at removing mindgames
Low level killer: not the most observant, doesnt usually juggle survivors, doesn't know what loops a survivor is running too, doesnt know the best way to loop, often wont mindgame, haven't mastered the killer, doesnt know which pallets have to be broken or can be played around. Usually dont drop chases.
High level killer: aware of tiles spawned, know when to drop chase, can juggle, tracks survivors around the map, understands speeds of actions, mastered the killer, knows which pallets are unsafe, knows the best way to push a survivor on a tile, will track deadzones
So, basically the biggest difference is the chase and understanding of loops with gen efficiency for survivor. And for killer multi tasking, game knowledge on who to chase where with the killer they're playing.
The changes:
-map size, because some maps are so big it stops the ability to juggle survivors and cause pressure while the survivors can optimally work on gens. So shrinking the map would help the high level without impacting the lower end, this is because the killers less likely to juggle or cause pressure meaning the survivors will still be safe enough to work on gens.
-tiles, some tiles are too safe. The main ones I would argue are jungle gyms and the killer shack. Good survivors know how to run these wasting huge time not to mention knowing places to stand to be safe. The FIX? Reduce the width of the tiles, for the JUNGLE GYMS reduce the distance between the pallet and window (like the one on the game map) this creates less safe spots and more chance to mindgame. as for KILLER SHACK, reduce the distance from the door (one without the pallet) and the window, this gives more room to mindgame and less safe places to stand. These changes wont affect the low level, as these survivors often dont maximize the loop or know the safe places to stand changing them wont be as impactful, theres still a pallet and window for them to use against a killer who isnt going to be the most knowledgeable.
Sorry for the long read. In short, shrink the size of some tiles and shrink the larger maps (redforrest).
What are your opinion?
Comments
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Did you say you want more L T into jungle gym next to shack? Don't worry we'll balance it out by nerfing Hillbilly.
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The thing is that as both survivor and killer looping and chasing around jungle gyms, LTs, shack is really fun the better you get at it. The other option is safe pallets everywhere (the Game) wich makes chases very boring and with less skill cap. I agree with the map size though, they should be smaller like Rancid Abattoir, i think it's the perfect map.
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Simply shrinking the gyms would still allow all the same potential as before at the high level, just stops the ability to wait at certain spots and be safe by reacting. For example you wait at the corner of the gym and you can make to the window/pallet on reaction making no chance of a mindgame.
Shrinking them gives the killer more opportunities to be tricky or mindgame and stopping that wait here and be safe etc. Obviously at the low level it wont matter, if seen them camp pallets like this even with enough distance to make the window lol
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Describing asylum there by the sounds of it lol, I hand shack window into a gym into a safe pallet. Safe to say I ran that doc there for 5 gens, without even using a pallet... broken af
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Balance at the top would mean a better experience for everyone.
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A few thoughts from someone happily in the 'intermediate' skill range. Which is the area you sort of forgot, and I'd reckon encapsulates far more players than 'high' skill.
- Map size isn't the problem, in and of itself - outside of some specific killers. It's more a matter of complexity (RPD, Haddonfield), the amount of 100% safe pallets (The Game), the presence of pseudo infinites (Badham, RPD, Haddonfield), the amount of 'freebie' gens (RPD, Haddonfield) and verticality.
- Overly small maps (DDS) tend to be killer favored at most levels, taking Game pallets/interaction with boons out of the equation.
- Shack is fine. It gives you one totally safe pallet, then it's basically done. The problem is pseudo infinites (the office on RPD is the big offender, as is the 'basement' house on Haddonfield and some Badham tiles) and overly prevalent safe pallets.
- The other big problem is killer balance. Right now, killers either need crazily high mobility (Blight, Spirit), excellent traversal (Nurse, Hag, Demo sort of), independent pressure (Pinhead, soon to be nerfed into obscurity) or anti-loop (Artist, Nemesis, PH) to be viable. M1 killers are sort of dead without abusing one or two really strong addons.
- If the infinites and freebie gens were fixed on Haddonfield, RPD and Badham and the safe pallets/nearly map wide boons on The Game were changed, killer balance would feel a lot better. These maps are the big offenders.
TL/DR - your observations aren't wrong, but your fixes need to be a bit more nuanced. I'd say that:
- Fix pseudo infinites by either removing 1 vault from these locations, or adding a gap in the barriers.
- Remove a few doodads near pallets from The Game.
- Move some of the 'freebie' gens on Badham, Haddonfield and RPD to somewhere you can actually pressure.
- Split RPD into two maps. It's just too big for it's level of complexity.
- Lower the 'roofs' on Haddonfield slightly, so that you can't reenter windows from them. This allows 'scouting' behavior, but stops the houses from being so oppressive against some killers.
- Stop boons from projecting their effects through floors (The Game).
- Give CoH a balance pass. It's just too strong in SWFs that build around it. It shouldn't stack with other healing effects so aggresively.
- Revert Pinhead, Wraith and Deathslinger nerfs, or compensate these killers elsewhere.
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Short of starting from square 1 again, it would be really hard to change the balance in a meaningful way.
Power creep is a huge problem right now with perks on both sides and recent perks confirm there are no plans of reducing it. In fact, it's getting worse. Games are often won and lost because either side randomly brought in perks for a situation that came up in the trial.
Tile spawn logic, spacing, orientation, and RNG needs to be torn down and rebuilt. RNG, again, is way too big of a factor. It's a source of frustration, not fun. The window of a long wall jungle gym should never under any circumstances face an adjacent pallet or window. Shack window should never be adjacent to a jungle gym. These things shouldn't still be issues in a game this old. I don't think the devs have a good understanding of high level gameplay. They understand the spreadsheet, but not the reasons behind the numbers.
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Honestly the whole idea people have that balancing for better players hurts low level players is a myth. Essentially all that will happen is that those worse players will start to lose a few more games because they played bad until their mmr adjusts and they are winning/losing exactly as much as they were before. In other words balancing for the better players only changes the invisible mmr number attached to bad players, it doesn’t actually hinder their experience nearly at all. However now we actually have a more balanced game at high mmr. There’s no reason we shouldn’t be balancing for better players as almost all games do for just this exact reason.
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maybe something like that for skill checks would make unnerving presence worth running. (something to make skill checks harder based on rank)
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The thing is, it's possible to make changes that only affect high skill players or changes that only affect low skill players. In recent memory the devs gave a MS buff to Nemesis T3 as a targetted buff towards higher level play with Nemesis.
The problem is the devs rarely ever address higher level play as they basically solely focus on making the experience better at lower levels. Devs shouldn't focus on one side over the other.
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The rng aspect isnt an issue. Each section of the map is a random tile so they can basically add a new code so this tile spawns X amount in this map, or if 2 of X tile spawn 1 of X title spawns. So it's not really starting from the ground up, but rng does need to be changed for sure. I'd still like the windows on gyms/shack to be more risk reward by making them smaller.
Agree with alot of that, especially those unwarranted killer nerfs who wasnt over performing. But you nail most of it, sadly I cant suggest every change I'd like as well be here all day lol.
I do feel big maps can be an issue, gens are so split causing pressure as a solo killer is painful. As for the tile like killershack, the pallet will still be a god pallet, I just mean shrink the distance from the open door to the window so there more mindgame and less safe, so you can risk the window for longer use etc. Or use that pallet for safety. I'm completely okay with 1 god pallet on every map, just not dozens like the game lol
Well even unnerving isnt impactful at high level, iv versed unnerving with max stacks of lullaby and can still hit them. Honestly perks like that should just be buffed, they're so limited and should be impactful
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for sure.
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Totally agree.
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Becuz both sides have to learn how to play so low tier people becomes high tier players.
By being the mommy and spoon feeding sides you will get babies.
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I think the question is "why not have the game get harder as you get more experienced"
I'd basically just have skill checks get harder based on rank. that would work perfectly on the new system.
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Because most people arent at the high level of play, therefore any changes to enforce good gameplay based on high level play will cause complaints.
Since people already complain whenever their side gets a nerf, this would cause them to declare quitting, talk all about the doom and gloom and that this is the dark age of the game.
Basically, people whine too much for BHVR to do this.
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What do you mean they're abusing perks and mechanics? How could they man, they're animals!
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It's impossible to balance for low level and high level at the same time. Just balance for high level, and everyone else will be too casual to care. If they do care, they're seeking to play competitive at high level. There's no 2 ways about it.
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long-wall-short-wall pallet is another loop they need look into. its pretty dumb that you can avoid any mindgames by just dropping pallet, than camp is the pallet and slide on reaction even if the killer has like bloodlust 3. Pretty much all long-wall safe pallets that turn into god pallets at high-level needs looking into.
I don't have problem with shack window, you can mindgame if you go counter-clock wise. the big issue is the pallet. they should put breakable wall to left side of the pallet or something. Jungle gyms definitely need reduction in wall length similar to Jungle gym of Gideon meat plant.
These loops wouldn't be as bad if every killer had anti-loop, but they keep nerfing 110% m/s and 115% m/s killer anti-loop which is problematic and many of killer's anti-loop are poorly balanced. aside from holding W which is #1 problem for killer, This is #2 biggest problem in the game.
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