Decisive Strike

doggieman said:

People who complain about DS are also the same killers that spam the hell out of the R key whenever a survivor shines a flashlight at their face. There is nothing wrong with DS and they shouldn't do anything to change it. There will always be people complaining about something.

So uhh what has one thing to do with the other? DS has no counters. Pressing R progresses the wiggle meter. Do it a few times and the survivor will get free anyway. 

@doggieman said:

@The_Crusader said:
How about this...

They remove it.

Perfect solution.

Alright then remove NOED too.

Although NOED and DS are hated by the community, at least one of them has counters. There is no 100% counter to DS without having to take up a perk slot, which by the way doesn't even counter the perk fully due to it only reducing the stun time slightly. When a killer downs a survivor, that means they worked for it and the survivor has lost so it is pretty stupid that they can hit a skill check to just escape and loop again. I personally don't mind 1 DS in my game but the only time I see it being a problem is when there are multiple survivors running the perk.

Regarding NOED, that can be countered before it even activates just by destroying 5 totems. If you take a little time out of your game to cleanse the totems then you wouldn't have an issue with NOED.

I personally don't run either of those perks because I find them both annoying whenever I play against them (I do play survivor and killer) but at least NOED has a counter-play to it unlike DS.

At this point, even if DS is 'perfectly balanced survivor perk', it should just go away. It created enough problems for the community and the most healthy way is to get rid of the perk honestly.

I am a survivor main, at least these days, and I honestly think that NOED and DS can not be even compared. Sure, replacing NOED with something else would be healthy but it is nowhere near DS imo.

If I were a dev, I would even temporarily disable the perk until I find a solution.

Killers hate DS because it destroys the pressure they have on Survivors. 

Frankly I don't really care about it one qay or the other.

@BrendanLeeT said:

@doggieman said:

@The_Crusader said:
How about this...

They remove it.

Perfect solution.

Alright then remove NOED too.

Although NOED and DS are hated by the community, at least one of them has counters. There is no 100% counter to DS without having to take up a perk slot, which by the way doesn't even counter the perk fully due to it only reducing the stun time slightly. When a killer downs a survivor, that means they worked for it and the survivor has lost so it is pretty stupid that they can hit a skill check to just escape and loop again. I personally don't mind 1 DS in my game but the only time I see it being a problem is when there are multiple survivors running the perk.

Regarding NOED, that can be countered before it even activates just by destroying 5 totems. If you take a little time out of your game to cleanse the totems then you wouldn't have an issue with NOED.

I personally don't run either of those perks because I find them both annoying whenever I play against them (I do play survivor and killer) but at least NOED has a counter-play to it unlike DS.

While there is no perk that counters DS you see plenty of killers strategically work around it. In all games where I played survivor and I ran DS, killers would always dribble me to the nearest hook. I would say half of my games I never get the opportunity to use DS. I don't mind DS when I'm playing killer because usually I prepare for it and I don't have an issue downing survivors again.

@Broosmeister said:
I think NOED can be compared. I have had enough killers who won just because of Noed. It rewards bad gameplay just like DS.
DS has counters and noed too. Noed takes time to get rid of and i just think the killer should know who has DS and who don't.

You know, I used to think this way too. Until I realized that if the killer "only gets kills because of NOED" it means that the survivors were gen rushing so hard, they didn't clean a measly 5 or less dull totems. Or worse, they rushed the exit so they could get a spot in line at the booty dance party rather than taking a route where they could check for the common totem spawns to see if any of them were glowing.

If Noed bothers you, do at least 1 dull totem every game, and especially leave a dull one near the exit gate and/or last gen you work on. You can say it slows down gen progression, but its such a hard counter to NOED you can prevent it from even existing.

@The_Crusader said:
Even 1 DS is too much. You shoudlnt have to decide whether you're going to eat a stun and extend a chase, or leave slugged and lose a hook as your reward for downing a survivor.

Its such stupid game design it boggles the mind how it ever got greenlit.

The same way a lot of the bad ideas on this forum get thrown around: people don't consider the consequences of a gameplay mechanic/design/balance/etc until its too late.

doggieman said:

@BrendanLeeT said:

@doggieman said:

@The_Crusader said:
How about this...

They remove it.

Perfect solution.

Alright then remove NOED too.

Although NOED and DS are hated by the community, at least one of them has counters. There is no 100% counter to DS without having to take up a perk slot, which by the way doesn't even counter the perk fully due to it only reducing the stun time slightly. When a killer downs a survivor, that means they worked for it and the survivor has lost so it is pretty stupid that they can hit a skill check to just escape and loop again. I personally don't mind 1 DS in my game but the only time I see it being a problem is when there are multiple survivors running the perk.

Regarding NOED, that can be countered before it even activates just by destroying 5 totems. If you take a little time out of your game to cleanse the totems then you wouldn't have an issue with NOED.

I personally don't run either of those perks because I find them both annoying whenever I play against them (I do play survivor and killer) but at least NOED has a counter-play to it unlike DS.

While there is no perk that counters DS you see plenty of killers strategically work around it. In all games where I played survivor and I ran DS, killers would always dribble me to the nearest hook. I would say half of my games I never get the opportunity to use DS. I don't mind DS when I'm playing killer because usually I prepare for it and I don't have an issue downing survivors again.

What if i told you I could make your perk so it wasnt countered by nba dribble master. What if i told you if it took the remove the killer grasp escape but grant you a power to prolong chases via an empowered pallet stun. The red pill brings you a perk that grants you potentially more time saving power and a rewardingly powerful stuns and the blue pill it promises the security of a killer grasp escape once a body block occur or if the distance is far enough or if your the obssesion you will likely be dribbled and hooked. Make your choice?

DS, itself, is not the problem. The problem is that killers simply don't have enough time when a team knows how to rush gens. DS exacerbates this. As a killer, you need pressure fast to help slow down the rate at which gens are completed. DS robs you of this pressure by denying you the hook.

Survivors really need to stop comparing NOED to DS, it's honestly tiring. Whilst NOED and DS are extremely strong perks, one can be countered and the other cannot. Enduring and dribbling are band-aid solutions, whilst NOED can be completely removed before it even comes into play.

Personally, I don't think DS needs reworking, I think we've simply lost sight of the real problem. With only one actually important objective, smarter teams can be out the gates in no time.

Everyone forgets Enduring counters it, and it has a lot of practical uses.

@The_Crusader said:
How about this...

They remove it.

Perfect solution.

Okay then laurie has 2 perks, whats her 3rd

@Broosmeister said:
I think NOED can be compared. I have had enough killers who won just because of Noed. It rewards bad gameplay just like DS.
DS has counters and noed too. Noed takes time to get rid of and i just think the killer should know who has DS and who don't.

At high rank, NOED's totem is destroyed almost immediately once survivors know there is one, once the totem is gone it ain't coming back - the perk becomes completely useless.

Then we have DS, one survivor can use it instantly, the others only need to wiggle to 35%. There can be 4 FREE escapes from the killer's grasp, and only one NOED totem at the end which can be destroyed.

You can't stop survivors from using DS, you can stop killers from using NOED.

Therefore I think you can't really compare them, but I haven't used NOED in ages.

@powerbats said:

@Ryuhi said:

@Nova_Terra said:
Everyone forgets Enduring counters it, and it has a lot of practical uses.

The problem with enduring is that aside from a brute force build, it is using a perk slot for the sole purpose of making failing hurt less rather than making the killer stronger. Many perks give utility in more positive ways, be they through tracking and auras, preventing/minimizing loops, slowing down the game, etc. Enduring's primary use is not getting penalized as hard for eating a pallet instead of properly spacing and just not getting hit by it. It synergizes really well with spirit fury to get that muscle hit after triggering it, but outside of that its uses are entirely defense based and can be negated by proper spacing.

Then in comes DS, making it damn near mandatory on the majority of killers.

So you could try to move away from it as a crutch, but doing so leaves you extra vulnerable to the biggest get out of jail free perk in the game, so you end up running it almost every game anyway. TBH it should be baseline specifically for DS (that is to say, DS should just cause a shorter stun and not be affected by Enduring,) leaving its other synergies and crutch applications as more optional.

Yet Enduring is also used for pallet stuns, flashlight stuns as well and some builds use it, Agitation, Iron Grasp and then w/e other perk they want to use and do quite well. If you see multiple flashlights throw in Lightborn and destroy them.

Yeah I kinda already went over how its used for pallet stuns, maybe thats why i mentioned spacing and its application in brute force builds (Enduring + Spirity fury, AKA the main way to make m1 killers viable in high ranks.)

How does it directly pair with Agitation and Iron Grasp? I would think it would be redundant since both of them (especially when combined) lead to a lot less struggle frees and thus less need for the reduced stun in the first place.

My point was that enduring SHOULD be in the same vein as Unrelenting: A crutch perk that can be dropped as players get better at negating the thing that the perk is offseting. The constant threat of DS, and more importantly the severe lack of counterplay for it, are why enduring is a big part of why enduring is so baseline. I'd love to steer away from it and work on getting pallet stunned less to free up the perk slot, but it just feels so mandatory right now because of DS and the fact that it helps killers stay comfortable with just lunging through the drop and hoping for a trade.

Personally I’ve never had an issue with DS as a killer but when you have a four man SWF group that bodyblock, teabag, are good at loops, have flashlights and firecrackers, and have 4 DS...it becomes an issue. The killer will not get a single kill in that situation.

Comparing DS and NOED is fair due to both rewarding bad gameplay. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten three kills at the end of the game because of NOED.

Also I don’t think NOED should be removed though, it can be countered. It is annoying but as I’ve gotten higher in rank as killer (I’m Rank 5) I’ve realized NOED doesn’t even activate sometimes because the survivors got all my totems. Just cleanse the totems and NOED is not an issue.

DS can be an issue but as I’ve stated before, it’ll never get removed due to being directly tied to the “Adept Laurie” achievement. It can be nerfed, but it won’t be removed.

Now DS skill check is so small and short . It not fair because it can use onec a game.

@Zarathos said:
Arroz said:

@Zarathos said:

@yes said:

@Nova_Terra said:

Everyone forgets Enduring counters it, and it has a lot of practical uses.

When you're stunned with DS and you're running Enduring, the DS stun time becomes the normal grasp-escape stun time. Enduring is one of the BEST perks out there.

For the last god damn time enduring does not counter ds. An additional chase is the problem with ds. Having the stun time shorten does nothing around optomised survivors who go down near loops or vaults.At mid ranks sure enduring does a decent job countering ds but once you hit red ranks chases need to end fast. The extra chase is costing you time and losing you momentum that's why its broken. If its anymore then one ds and your in a swf well that killer is gonna have a bad time as the body blocking begins to get the ds of every single team member off. Any counters a killer has to ds can be overcome by swf communication. Ds can appear multiple times in games. Therefore its  broken. If any of you have played in high ranks with a killer that wasn't nurse, billy, or spirit your in for a bad time with ds.

Its like if I said adrenaline was a counter to noed yes you outrun the killer for a little while but he still has the ms advantage and only a few circumstance will adrenaline save you from noed. Enduring is not a counter crush this urban myth now. When I talk about counters i mean counters for high skill play not morons who burn ds in a palletless region instead of conserving it for a better area.

Shut up rancor is the perfect counter to ds but you dont want to sacrifice your ######### barbecue and chili [BAD WORD] pussy

Actually racor has a lot of problems.
A. Its got one of the worst aura reading powers in the game.
B. It gives survivours whom are swf map information on killer movement.
C. It doesent overcome the problem of multiple dses which clearly i hit a nerve since you cant refute my argument and are resorting to derogatory comments lile a child throwing a tantrum.
D. Bbq has at least 7 counters and most killers could care less about the aura readings its just for bp gain since dbd is a massive grind and killers require specific perks to be viable. 
E. You have chosen to not contradict my enduring statement and made a half ass post detailing some other perk.
F. Word of advice dont waste energy posting derorgatory crap use that energy to back your statements. So uncivilised. 

People use BBQ for the bloodpoints? I mean, I use it too (all the time) but I use it mainly for the aura reading ability.

You can play normally and eat the stun and simply down them 5-10 seconds later for most survivors and the only ones take longer are the really good ones.

If you honestly think the only way to handle DS is to leave them slugged on the ground or camp them then there's really no hope for teaching you anything.

You can dribble them, you can play smart and time your down for closer to a hook in which case DS goes for naught. There's the old pick them up near the basement and let them wiggle out and drop into the basement trick.

There's the let them use ds but pick them up so thy get dropped in a good spot for you to re down them pretty much instantly trick.

Yes it's an annoying perk but it's a 1 time usage perk and after that that perk slot is wasted and that person's screwed the rest of the game.

powerbats said:

@yes said:

@Arroz said:
I just.. Uhhh have to say something...

also stfu because you can't 'git gud' while trying to counter DS. the only way you can 'git gud' is by leaving the survivor w/ DS on the ground, camping them until they bleed out, or juggle them.

You can play normally and eat the stun and simply down them 5-10 seconds later for most survivors and the only ones take longer are the really good ones.

If you honestly think the only way to handle DS is to leave them slugged on the ground or camp them then there's really no hope for teaching you anything.

You can dribble them, you can play smart and time your down for closer to a hook in which case DS goes for naught. There's the old pick them up near the basement and let them wiggle out and drop into the basement trick.

There's the let them use ds but pick them up so thy get dropped in a good spot for you to re down them pretty much instantly trick.

Yes it's an annoying perk but it's a 1 time usage perk and after that that perk slot is wasted and that person's screwed the rest of the game.

These are all nice tricks I have used and found great success however they all require the survivour to make the foolish move of getting downed by a hook and even then if a friend pops out and blocks the hook the ds is going off which kills your momentum as killer. One use is also arguable as if it occurs multiple times via hidden ds targets whom can again body block to ensure it goes off. 

If a killer had a perk that gave them 4 tokens that allowed them to instadown in their next attack would that be ok even though its a one time use per token. No it wouldnt. Ds is costing you time no matter what strategy you use in dbd. Its a poorly designed perk that needs to lose its killer grasp escape for empowered stuns or a chase mechanic that allows a killer to meaningfully counter it.

Time is a comodity in dbd ds is often the difference between a killer getting enough time to allow a gen to be completed.