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Lets talk - Serious discussion.
I've been reading on the various forums outside of this game's Core Forum on some of the whole DDoS stuff and what is behind them. Folks on the internet TALK. With doing my best here to NOT disclose how this stuff is done (and my years of Cisco, CATalyst IOS and some good old PLASMON storage stuff), I don't claim to be ANY expert, if at all. But rest assured. I might be able to help. and my intentions here are to be NICE, POLITE, and help OTHERS.:, as well as I will "water down" most of the technical stuff, in order to PREVENT folks from getting any bad ideas. (I hope).
When it comes to DDoS stuff. it is a disruptive form of leveraging the advantage of another person's network and rendering it unusable. The big talk of the INTERNET is reasons as to the "why". Me personally. I think it is very malicious and mean to do. But I know "the why". and the HOW to prevent.
Most folks here are NOT going to have a way to mitigate a DoS attack unless they are paying for a Mitigation service or a Mitigation APPLIANCE. This means big bucks spent. When it comes to P2P (peer 2 peer) these types of attacks are extremely difficult to prevent. As the server making the matches and connects players together. There are direct lines to one another's computers.
When it comes to game companies hosting the match. it is a different level of protection. often, for the better. but it does NOT mean that these types of attacks can be prevented... Especially because gamers are connecting to one another THROUGH a server, and this means that TUNNELING (not the kind in this game) is an ongoing issue that EVERY game server in existence faces.
I took programming in college and I can say that no matter how much patching a person does. A patch does NOTHING in the world of Pseudo computer security. So a person has to look for a way to lower the Reward for the risk.
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With a "certainRULE" that has been put into the game for Penalizing players for Abandoning a match and has a Stacking time OUT. This gives malicious players full leverage over ruining the experience for others. Especially with STACKING penalties. This means that effectively these rules ALLOW for someone with malicious intent to leverage game rules and completely shut down an entire game in no time.
As it stands today. I would recommend that the penalties are removed and another avenue of creating a positive reinforcement for players to remain in a match. It gives someone no leverage if the penalties no longer exist.
Stay safe everyone!
Comments
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No. Removing the DC rule would be abused beyond reason. I already have survivors intentionally DC'ing to repeatedly deny my Myer's 4 Kill Tombstone achivement.
I get where you're coming from, but removing the DC penalty invalidates large portions of this game.
Edit: There is still leverage if the penalty no longer exists. That current game is ruined.
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I personally would find it hilarious if someone went out of their way to spend thousands on a botnet to DDoS me over a DBD game.
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As it stands today. A person has to weigh the mitigating circumstances. I understand where you are coming from and I can agree that it is an issue in the game. However, this is what is happening and that is because of how high the reward is.
From what I am hearing. It is not only folks that are in-game that are "malicious actors" but external non-ingame players doing this as well. (and not saying more).
This is random players that are attacked on the network for zero reason, Having their connection knocked out.
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It will be up to the community and the company to decide what is best. So we have to figure out what is best for our community.
A. With penalties, We leave it open for the next hole in programming and the engine to find a way in. As well as the Server hosting services contractors they use, as well as internal issues that naturally come with bugs and errors.
B. Without penalties, we do have the other issue of unsportsmanlike conduct, but players still being able to play the game, without the reward to those whom wish to do malice towards the game.
Me, I am of the opinion that a ranking system of Player behavior alone would begin to solve this in a peaceful manner and not generate a stepping stone for bad actors to ruin the experience of the game, for others. Especially with what leverage the penalties give a malicious person.
I would agree that a newly revised system could solve this better: For those that are in the habit of not playing out a match, it holds their rank back. For those that strive to be a respectful team player. They can be rewarded by playing the game with others whom strive for gameplay.
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Yeah, I can stress that up and down.. the better is to take players that want a Casual experience and are not willing to remain in a match and hold them back in rank. While there are others that are fully participating in the match and are working to be better players and excel at their skills. They should be able to play with others that are of the same Mindset of playing to remain, and win.
With any Killer in the game, that so chooses to end their session early. I do believe that survivors deserve Safety pips and lose no rank.
I know that redesigning the system again would be difficult. But with how the current system is. TONS of people are now afraid to even TURN on the game and play, when there is DDOS and DOS going on. Since they are too scared to get a stacked penalty and not be able to even play.
I am now hearing this from WiFi cafe users. That they no longer play DBD because of the penalties. Sure, it is really frustrating for both sides of this Concern. and I agree that there isn't an easy answer. But I strongly feel like this would be the most peaceful solution is Match Participation Ranking coming first. Then skill rating.
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lol if they dc for that, then the jokes on them.
All they have to do is hide in a locker, vault or work on a gen and you cant mori them 😂
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remove penalty, make leaving players bots.
But give a DC mmr that puts DCrs against DCrs
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Yeah no, we dont need to give ppl even more incentive to DC against Legion.
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I can see it working on one reason and one alone and that is holding the match hostage especially during end game since for some reason someone has to think it's funny to stay until the last second and waste time just so they can try and get the last laugh and try to bm when no one is there.
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sooooo, how is this really solved? Keep penalties and keep giving DOS hackers a reason of disrupting player's games?
O_o
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No, they won’t “mellow out over time”, that’s hogwash. Every single time the DC penalty has been turned off there’s a massive number of disconnects, and when it goes back on there are a lot less. And before the automated DC bans were in place there were tons of DCs as well.
The benefits of banning people who disconnect far outweigh the downsides.
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Several people quoted my first post. I'm just going to say this, you all have too much faith in the population of DC'ers if you think turning off the DC penalty will yield any eventual, corrective action on the behaviors of the people who have exploited the lack of a penalty in the past.
Full stop.
You need to understand how damning the ramifications of turning it off are. It is anecdotal, but I average a DC every 3-4 games. When the penalty was off, I averaged 2 DC's per game. I'm certainly not the nicest killer, but that is an extreme amount of people simply sabotaging their team because they felt personally slighted. If you look at the numbers of people who employ DDOSING versus people who will abuse the lack of a DC penalty, the appropriate action is definitely to keep the penalty enabled. Far more games will be salvaged.
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I disagree.
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Thanks for the explanation, I did also try to tell ppl how that works but it is kinda hard to not get too technical, however you did it very well! And yes I also agree to put down the DC penalty for no, I do think though tthat the DDos issue calmed down abit since i see way less complaints about it.
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Cool story.
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There's only two ways forward.
Either BHVR stops punishing innocent players for DC'ing when there's a hacker (or being forcibly disconnected)
OR
They disable the penalties.
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I disagree. Not based on any intellectual merits, but simply because you proposed an ultimatum that is false. They can leave things as are, which is the most likely course of action, and just so happens to be what I think is the most logical.
Obviously I would love them to protect our IP addresses more, but that would be icing, and honestly expecting too much from them.
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So you think it's acceptable that people are being punished for something they did not have any control over?
Good to know.
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Don't put words in my mouth, you're better than that. I think it's a harder choice than you all like to posit, and I'm certain you read my earlier post where I outlined that choice. Far more people would have games ruined by DC'ers than by DDOSers.
And let's just say you are being DDOS'd, and you get disconnected, and take the penalty. That penalty is minutes, would you really try to play another game if you're still being DDOS'd?
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As it stands right now. Hacktivism is what is happening this evening. Blizzard just got hit a couple of hours ago and got knocked out at their Datacenters too.
As for the penalties here. Hackers took advantage of the penalty system and it looks like they can continue doing so. Forcing players to lose connection and stack penalties. Me personally. I've heard about this ongoing since November and haven't really even Played since penalties were put in. Since I know that network vulnerabilities are growing due to the lack of administration due to the COVID outbreak, causing staff shortages all over the world.
I will reiterate that I do like the IDEA of a Behavior ranking system idea. So players whom wish to remain in matches and play, will rank up further than those that wish to be disruptive and exit their match would be held back. Since hackers are able to now exploit this game's penalty system, that this game has and render the game unplayable from stacked penalties. This is really the simple solution, since the system we have now in place. Is being repeatedly used against everyone here and can continue to be leverage against people to not login and play this game.
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Except those penalties stack.
If it were just 5 minutes, that'd be one thing.
But you can get penalties that last DAYS
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That could be a case for shortening the penalties, sure. Turning them off? Still a hard no from me. There could be a middle ground that can tell the difference between someone who DCs too often and someone who's the victim of DDOSing, as it is extremely unlikely that you're going to be DDOS'd with that kind of consistency. In fact, I wouldn't believe that claim from anyone short of a mega-popular streamer without documented proof laid out first.
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When i was on Xbox One, I got hit off about once a week.
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There really isn't a way for any system to differentiate between if it is a connection dropped on purpose or not. Which is why companies use a Blanket penalty system in the first place. Packet flow stops = Connection lost. I could use my "network tools software" to fake a DOS on my own network and it would look like it is a malicious attack from someone else and still get around it that way. Even if they did have some sort of detection. Which most of their network technicians would already know this, so that is why they use a "blanket" penalty system. Since it could be an easily fabricated circumstance. (not saying more on this technique either).
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I've been DOS'd on here a couple of times when using the game both on Server side and plenty, back when this game was P2P. I have also been DOS'd when Playing Overwatch and after a lengthy Blizzard customer support ticket, the actions of the offending party were quite clear.
Most companies don't want to talk about it So other people do NOT follow suit and do this type of bad behavior, because there are always vulnerabilities and the less others know. The better. I could go into great lengths on how it is done, but again. I think that this system does need a change, or more folks will fall victim to these attacks and eventually Q times will be even more compromised.
Often times these vulnerabilities aren't even in the engine itself but the hardware itself being used in data centers. As well as what we are seeing is not on the game companies being hit, but player's networks on OLD OUTDATED hardware from their very OWN ISP. In my town they are STILL using old outdated 2600 from Cisco, in parts of their network racks. VERY SLOW and boggy. With plenty of security issues.
And hardware firmware patches are ignored for that stuff,. Which often takes MONTHS to years for patching out. Cisco being one, that does NOT move as fast as they claim to. So Data centers are often stuck with old switches and routers. That is because of the price tags. Especially since new switches and routers run up price tags of 80k each, . Just pulling up their latest N9K-C9508-B2. is about 82k. and if I was administrating a network that size. I'd probably have more than 1, and then extra 9364C's as backbone headers to each rack. So about 30k per rack.
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but rest assured my statement on Behavioral based ranking being implemented would be the only easy solution to this. It would remove the penalty, and yes, at the start. It would not be fun for the first 10 or 20 matches. But afterwards. A person would climb the algorithmic-al mountain and no longer have to deal with people that terminate their connection to a match. Plus it would keep data center leasing contracts lower in costs and from a business stand point. Reduce overhead.
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Think you misunderstood the goal of my previous post. I'm not talking about differentiation via anything other than frequency. @Pulsar said he was DDOS'd once a week on XBOX. While I doubt that, even if he was that would only translate to about 5 minutes worth of DC penalty a week, providing he's not also additionally rage quitting and DC'ing intentionally. That's more than acceptable to me.
The other issue I have with your proposed system, is all it sounds like to me is an easy way for players to tank their ranking and abuse lower ranked people.
Unless you're talking about this Behavioral based ranking being a separate ranking from the MMR, which I would also be against as this game, while healthy, still does not have a population that supports multiple population divisions.
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Lockers > Myers
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What do you get more of in your matches, hackers that prevent you from leaving a match or players that DC?
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IT is one of those things where it is a very difficult decision for anyone to make that is a Game Director.
With one way. We can have penalties and people will continue to abuse others by forcing their connection to close and they become penalized.
With another system we have to put up with players that cause incomplete matches.
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If I was to look at a Behavioral Based ranking system idea. It would be the most beneficial. Because there can be those that play well and advance, but I do agree there are those whom are going to be difficult players that would be low player rank and be extremely strong to face off again.
How Blizzard solved this partially, was their method of DIVIDING the game up with a RANKED system and an UN Ranked system. With the rank system that has HUGE penalties for match abandonment, and then what is known as QUICKPLAY. Where players receive no penalties for abandoning a match.
The reason why Competitive mode ended up with these issues, was because the plethora of Sales that the game company has. So players "smurff" and create multiple accounts. Since BHVR takes a different approach to this. It isn't such a problem.
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A proposed idea for this game would be a Competitive mode and Non Competitive mode.
With Competitive mode that contains strict penalties for poor behavior. and a non competitive mode. So players with bad connections, outdated hardware and those whom use public computers and cyber cafes can do so. with the stipulation that if a person is playing in a Non competitive mode. Anything can happen.
I do streaming on the side. But I won't pick up this game and stream it anymore because of the Penalties, the hackers and the DOS'rs. If more players are intimidated by these impending issues, they won't want to stream the game, and games that are not being streamed on Twitch and Youtube, are the games that lose player interest. Because Game companies RELY on streamer outreach.
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