Fun and the connection to winning
I thought I would write this after reading the threads about Tru's video and the one on Lightborn. To understate it, there appears to be a lot of differing opinions on the subject
In my opinion, a lot of the debate comes from differing opinions of 'win' and 'fun'. For me, I win if I have fun; that doesn't necessarily mean kills. A fun game where I get 6 to 8 hooks but zero kills but done in a fun, cool to play against the survivors game is a win to me. Against a bully squad whose only purpose is to annoy me a 4K or 3K with one hatch escape isn't a 'win' because, yeah, I killed the survivors but the game wasn't fun.
For me, a close match where the survivors escape and then tell me my character was terrifying is more fun than when survivors mess around with me just to try to ruin my game and I end up killing all four of them because they eventually will make a mistake and also stick around too long. In one there was player enjoyment and, in the other, there was just antagonistic sweaty tension.
How about you? How does the concept of enjoyment relate to your win condition?
Comments
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I'm very similar to you, I really don't care about kills but getting my 4 stacks of BBQ and having some fun chases is what makes the match a win in my book. Same when I play survivor, i don't care if I live or die but in the means in which that happens and if I can get a Head On stun off or two, I'm normally pretty happy!
Fun is always the most important thing for me in any game, my time is too limited with my other responsibilities to do things that are not fun in my time off.
I've got a lot of hours in DbD, and I still have fun with it - even though it's partly work for me these days because over 40hrs of a working week are DbD related, I still play on Live in my freetime to enjoy the game.
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Exactly! I play video games to have fun and relax as well; it's my free time and I want diversion instead of stress.
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Some people act like if they die in the game, they will die in real life. Or if they don't get a 4k, the entity will go to them personally and punish them for it, that's why they can't have fun if they don't have easy escapes/4ks.
As killer, having fun for me is at least getting my 4 stacks of BBQ, having a fair match even if I get a 0k. If everyone played fair and didn't BM, it's fine for me. Would it be better to get a kill? Sure, but I don't need to get kills every game, next one will be better.
As survivor since I play solo Q, having a good team who can meme AND play at the same time, it's what's fun for me. It feels really rewarding to get actual randoms in your team who are good and take hits, do gens, saves etc, since it is so rare. Even if I end up dying, that's ok with me.
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I don't find winning necessary to having fun, but the feeling of having a chance at winning is important. Being played with isn't enjoyable.
And I hope to not be on the other side of it, either.
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I try to kill the survivors obviously but I also don’t bother doing something if it’s boring. For instance,
- Strategically if I really wanted to maximize my kills I’d slug the third survivor to find the last before the hatch can appear. In practice though that’s super boring so I don’t bother, if they beat me to the hatch after I hook the third survivor then so be it.
- Once the Exits are opened if nobody is on a hook I don’t bother chasing survivors at the Exits, instead I’ll look for stragglers out of position or pallets to break, etc. It’s not worth my time doing a pointless chase at the Exit that has zero chance of getting a hook.
- I rarely facecamp because most of the time it feels like an inefficient use of time. If the survivors aren’t coming to me I’d rather go to them then stand around twiddling my thumbs. That’s not to say I won’t keep an eye or ear out for someone going for a rescue while I’m checking something else, but I don’t just stand around at the hook doing nothing. I’m sure there are some instances where hypothetically it’s slightly better strategically to stick in place but… 🤷♂️
- I rarely run Corrupt Intervention. Not because it’s a bad perk, but because it often leads to a boring start of the game since survivors tend to hide when they see the gens are blocked, meaning it can take a while to find them and actually get into a chase. I’d just as soon not use this perk, let them start working on a gen quickly, and use the sound of the gen repair to get into an early chase. Not optimal strategy necessarily but a lot more fun and it still works (assuming you replace Corrupt with some other useful perk). The exception is I might use Corrupt with Lethal Pursuer since the Lethal aura eliminates the chance that I won’t get into a chase right away while Corrupt is up. I get the benefit of the blocked gens without the survivors hiding.
- I tend not to run NOED mainly because I like trying to get hooks earlier in the match then the end of the match. NOED is a perfectly good perk obviously, I just prefer Haunted Grounds or Devour Hope or Make Your Choice for earlier Exposed hits as a playstyle preference.
- I totally get why Nurse is a top tier killer, but I find her so unfun to play I literally keep a Nurse mission in my log so it never appears again. On the flip side I find Blight and Oni really fun in terms of playstyle but I’m terrible with them because I don’t practice them enough to consistently hit with their charges.
- I find survivor a lot less fun to play than killer so I don’t bother, even though in principle I’d probably improve a bit as killer if I played survivor too.
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Agreed. I'd rather have 2K, 2 escape where there are plenty of fun chases and all survivors are unhooking, healing, doing gens rather than a one-sided stomp for either role.
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3-4 man SWF groups aren't into the game for the atmosphere or challenge. They want escapes. Which is why 3-4 man SWF should get randomized Bot Killers. If all they want is to bully, sweat, and slam gens as hard as possible, let them go up against an automated antagonist. Save the killer players for solos and duos who might actually experience the suspense, tension, and surprise of going up against a real player.
The 3-4 SWF get auto-queues because the game just generates a killer for them, while all the solos get much faster queues because all the killer players are reserved for them. And then the game can be balanced around the Solo Queue experience without killer SWF squads unfairly profiting off of game tweaks. Plus, they can just adjust the killer bots to cheat at higher MMRs, with faster movespeeds/recovery so the SWF folk get a challenge no matter how broken they set up their team.
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I agree, fun should be the end-goal, there are many times where you "win" but you are not satisfied, or if you "lose", but had an amazing game; I always played for the fun, being that helping the team, having fun chases, doing something unique and even meme from time to time.
That also helps with frustration: if you give yourself a goal that's too high, you end up frustrated when you don't achieve it, especially if it happens multiple times, the good thing about Dbd is that you can give yourself whatever goal you want, being the 4 BBQ stacks, a certain amount of hooks, even the simple improving with a killer or as survivor can be a good achievement.
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I just want to have fun "doing my thing". I consider Killers to basically be a Clown at a 5 year olds birthday party. If I'm just being puked on and having my hair pulled before I even make a single balloon animal, of course I'm going to sad. You don't entertain children for the $$$$, you do it because it fulfills something inside of you.
For example, I love Tombstone Myers. I'm fine getting 0K if I can keep the survivors stressed out and scrambling for their lives.
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" tell me my character was terrifying" - I see... You are new, right? There is nothing terrifying about DBD characters after you get a few hundred hours in game. My formula is this one: Fun = Win. 3k or 4k = fun. 2k = okay. 1k and 0k = no fun. And the opposite as survivor. That's all.
You know what's terrifying as survivor to me? It's not the characters. It's any strong killer with multiple gen slowdowns. Slap Ruin/Undying if you want to me a bit more terrifying. I don't care what your character skin is.
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"That also helps with frustration: if you give yourself a goal that's too high, you end up frustrated when you don't achieve it" - than perhaps BHVR can stop putting goals that are too hard to achieve in the RIFT as solo survivor.
"Unhook survivor who previously unhooked you" - any idea how frustrating that was? I couldn't get it in more than 10 matches by normal play, so I eventually had to throw a match by running a killer, than do nothing and shadow survivor who unhooked me for almost entire match, so I can get it done. Admittedly, none of this is a problem for SWF on comms.
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I don’t think Rizzo can do anything about that.
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Agreed, they should change the name to "Survive with Tournament Allies".
Friends aren't real.
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Well what contributes to the problem is also that there is a misconception of what "bullying" actually means.
It is not bringing items and using them against you. Bullying has become such a loose terms on these forums where there are literally people who believe someone is out there to "bully" them in a video game, all while there is actual bullying happening right now in the real world.
There is no denying that you can have fun and lose, but winning also feels fun because it feels like you were rewarded for your actions.
For me fun boils down to interaction between each player. So if every survivor just held W and pre-dropped pallet that is boring to me. Doesn't mean I don't understand why they do it when they are continuing to develop more and more killers which discourage potential looping mind-games etc.
The win is more something I keep in the back of my mind, because I am not thinking "I need to win" but instead "I need to do this to win". Because in the end I don't think anyone is playing the game just to lose. Winning feels good, but when you have to use the more boring interactions is when it becomes un-fun, that even winning feels "meh".
I think it's important to note that not everyone is down to "meme" or play casual. People want to win while also getting a fairly good experience.
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And if you want to play with friends, that's great. By all means, play this game format that is specifically balanced to account for all of your friends being able to chat and hang out. But keep that out of the base game, which is not even remotely balanced for it.
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This is how I feel after I finish my rift challenge. Do what you must killer, for I have already won.
As killer if you press too hard it takes a few minutes for survivors to unhook everyone and get their business back in order. Those few minutes feel good if you start toying with the survivors before pressing hard again. I'm usually one to give the hatch though so it's not too bad on them.
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True, it would be great if the game was balanced to account for people on comms.
But it's weird to act like people just getting together and playing a fun party game with their friends is impossible and only consummate professionals and Satan's left testicle do SWF.
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I'm sure MOST people don't group up to be a crack squad. But I can also assure you that MOST people who do SWF are also on comms. And even the slightest call out is info that solo queue players don't get. It's just flat-out not fair, no matter how casual your group might be.
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Sure. Bring Killer and Solo up to snuff with SWF and close the gap so people playing with their friends doesn't bring along such an intense stigma anymore.
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Some thoughts regarding the posts: a couple posts include stacking BBQ as a win, guessing same probably for survivor perk, indicating BP grind very much a definite thought while playing. A lot of pretty casual responses but none really from more competitive minded players. Seems easier for survivor to have more fun being in the power role. Killers more content to just being there.
Personally I'm more of a competitive personality. I'll accept 2k's in a close match but would prefer 3. 4ks don't really matter due to hatch. Though I also hate the boringness of feeling like having to tunnel someone out just to slow the game down in a lot of cases. Camping hook to secure 1 more kill in endgame is also really boring. More chases and more hooks is more fun but getting 0-1K and 10 hooks is not as fun.
Survivor is different. Don't really consider wins or losses. If I'm outplayed and die good on the killer. If I'm tunneled and camped I understand killers position. If I escape oh well not that hard. More so just trying to get all 4 out. Trying to take away the killers fun by teabagging and flashlight clicking and abusing exploits wouldn't make me enjoy the game at any higher level.
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4 BBQ stacks and over 25k base BP is my win. Fun is about using my killers power to the fullest or learning something new with it.
Survivor with good chases and teamwork, not obe sided stomp from each side is a win even if I die.
But if Im doing challenge and need kills or escape, I will sweat my ass on you until its done. In that case the fun is finishing challenge even tho if matches that let me finish it may by no means be fun to anyone included
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My new win condition is 4 BBQ stacks also but that's actually a bad thing game wise.
Its a little sad to see BHVR and mods express this too because it means that kills are secondary to game outcome. Meaning the survivor experience is one of very high escape rate and minimal killer threat, while the killer experience is get 4 hooks and call it a day.
That's kinda crap given the theme of the game. I want a scary survivor experience where I may not escape and I want a killer experience where I can threaten survivors very effectively regardless of map and set up.
So I either have to commit 1000's of hours to get great map knowledge and sweat through my shirt playing as hardcore as possible or get used to this new lackluster normal where I will probably get hooked once as survivor and then be fine for the rest of the game walking out the door as I swing a cane or just get 4 hooks as killer and be happy with that.
Can't anyone see that this is a crappy game experience for a survival horror, the theme and the experience is being flushed down the toilet in the name of competitive balance and it bums me out.
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The developers themselves do not know what victory is. MMR is calculated from escapes and murders. And the emblem system calculates the player's efficiency. But both systems do not show themselves very well. For example, the emblem system punished highly effective players. At the same time, MMR spits on the gameplay and looks at the result.
It would be interesting if there was a timer in the match) And if the survivors do not run away in the allotted time, they are sacrificed. And the killer would have a choice to either try to kill the survivors directly or slow down the match as much as possible before the timer ends)
And it would be necessary to rework the hook system. Yes, the new 15% regression perk for the generator is interesting, but it's a patch, a crutch.
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Having a Tinkerer Bubba come around the corner from nowhere with his saw is pretty terrifying, even for someone with 5k hours.
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Definitely a mechanic that switches the pressure to survivors trying to escape rather than killers trying to get kills would be a good move theme wise.
My gripe is mostly that there are BHVR reps saying "set your own win condition and be happy with that" rather than designing a game where it fits the theme and you could die and killers are scary.
If the bar is set at 4 BBQ stacks and everyone escapes, so everybody can be happy then why have hooks or kills at all? Just remove them and have nothing but chases for points and then everybody gets to live. There's no threat, no real theme, just loopy chase everyone gets a trophy day.
There'd be no tunneling, no camping, no flashlight saving, just running around and around the same rock to farm points and everybody could be happy. I couldn't think of a more boring play experience but read between the lines of a lot of posts and this seems to be what people want.
Would you watch Halloween, Friday the 13th, nightmare on elm street, Texas chainsaw massacre, scream etc if the big scary killer was unable to kill anyone and everyone just lived at the end without any real consequence. No it would be crap, no thrill, no scare, but that's how you make your own fun in DBD it seems. Its a poor concept for a survival horror game and a sure sign that something is wrong.
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