One thing I'll concede to survivors
Leatherface's ability to camp is OP. "Uncounterable" if I may, at least for the survivor on hook and their rescuers.
Because his chainsaw goes through multiple survivors, instead of stopping after downing 1 like Hillbilly, he can guarantee a kill on someone as soon as they get hooked. You can punish the killer by having the remaining 3 survivors finish the gens and get out, but it just doesn't sit right with me. If it was any other killer, there would always be a chance for hook bombing into BT, DS, and Dead Hard. But because it's Leatherface, none of that matters. The only semi-counter to him camping for the survivor on hook is having Deliverance/DS. That allows you to get off the hook without someone needing to unhook you in the face of the camper. But if he wants throw the game to slug/tunnel you out even with that perk combo, he will because that was his plan anyway.
There are several other killers that come close to Leatherface-like camping capabilities, but I usually don't complain about those because they're limited or take preparation.
Trickster with Main Event can pretty much guarantee a hook trade. However, that ability for some reason is put on a timer. If you don't use it, you lose it. So it's not consistent for camping, although his regular knives are often good enough for camping. But it's not uncounterable, because there could be a hook bomb where everyone takes the perfect amount of knives for each other, throw in BT, DS, Dead Hard and they're out.
Oni can hold onto his power and activate it when people come to unhook. However, he has to activate it early if he wants to guarantee the hook trade, because I kid you not, his powering up animation is so long that survivors can unhook in front of you and start running before it's even over. If you do preemptively activate it though, you might run out of it before the survivor is dead, and in that short fatigue animation survivors can just unhook in front of you, and you lose it all.
This is why Myers's camping capabilities are probably the closest to Leatherface's. Assuming he's 99'd his Tier 3, he can instantly tap it and down the rescuer, or deter people from rescuing. Activating Tier 3 preemptively is not necessary with Myers, because there's no lengthy start-up animation. Assuming you wait out his Tier 3 and try to hook bomb again, he can get another Tier 3 back in like 6 seconds apparently. Because his meter doesn't go all the way down to the start after losing Tier 3, and instead goes back to 1/4 or 1/2 filled towards Tier 3, he can practically guarantee another Tier 3 as soon as you come to unhook someone, even if he just came out of Tier 3. You could theoretically send someone or multiple people in who have been fully stalked, but who really knows how much they've been stalked? (My justification for calling infinite Tier 3/Tombstone uncounterable and unforseeable.)
Hillbilly has a chainsaw, so he can hook trade on the survivors, but it's nowhere near as powerful as Leathface because he can't go through multiple people with his chainsaw. His chainsaw is also slow to start up and clunky, and he could miss unlike Leathface's chainsaw which is basically impossible to miss with, so even he isn't guaranteed the hook trade, especially with hook bomb/BT/Dead Hard shenanigans. I find that his overheat is more punishing than Leatherface's when holding his ability, so it's not you can pre-rev forever.
Leathface's power is just boring to me, even moreso than Nurse. It really shows with his camping. Any other killer has to have precise aim and hit survivors twice and respect pallets. But him? No. You just rev the chainsaw and either get a down(s) from the huge attack hitbox in front of you, or you break a pallet instantly. Playing him normally won't even get you that many kills, because you can still be gen rushed and survivors can just drop pallets instantly. But if you down someone once, camp 1 to death, and then maybe get another kill with NOED if there's still survivors around, and that's a 2k, which is probably more success than if you were to play him normal.
I don't like stuff that has no counterplay. God pallets, god windows, gen speed, rollback, Nurse, Flashbang against Wraith, etc. But Leatherface's camping is at the top of the list for many people.
Comments
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I accept that there are playstyles that dont appeal to me. You'll never catch me playing or even liking a Hag.
But I do ask myself " why bust my balls and make my nails bloody begging for scraps when I could go on autopilot with Bubba or Pig?
I feel like killer is so much more chill when I dictate the games rules and not the survivors. I feel like an idiot for actually trying sometimes when Bubbas have it so easy.
On a map like the Game, it can be hard to do all 5 gens and escape if the 1st guy goes down at 5 gens.
I just wanna see more chase Bubbas :(
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Why is Pig auto-pilot?
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Video Tape, Rule Set 2 with Rancor and a yellow Mori.
It's my lore accurate Amanda build, and it plays itself. Its success or failure has almost nothing to do with my own input.
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Remember that teaser clip for the Bubba rework, where he'd hold a chainsaw rev'd in the basement, went in a tantrum and the survivors around him all looked fuzzy and warm because finally Bubba camping was a thing of the past?
Except, no Bubba ever has tantrum'd camping. Not only he can prevent unhooks like before. Now, he can actually down through bt. Yeah, they really buffed his facecamping thinking they fixed it instead.
That's what happens when you sign off to changes with zero testing, because you're more worried about promoting cosmetics. And to think it would've taken them exactly 5 sec of trying to find out they didn't fix anything. Definitely faster than recording that bait teaser.
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Facecamping is a problem. BHVR are aware of this, and have said that they are going to add a mechanical change to discourage it.
The problem is that this has to be done without turning hooks into safe zones, or preventing proxy camping.
You shouldn't be guaranteed a safe unhook, but it's not healthy for the killer to be able to camp someone to death at 5 gens.
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Camping is not a real problem. It is Bubbas thing.
There are 25 other killers with other things.
Bubba is good at camping - everybody knows it, so no secret. You can adjust or maybe die.
You don´t play only against Bubbas.
The exact same argument could be made on some special surv perks. When you see them as killer you also have to adapt or maybe loose.
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Insidious Basement Bubba is one of the few terrifying things about DBD. Certainly, as someone who sees Bubba take a survivor down into the basement, unless I actually see him roaming the map I am never going for that save.
In terms of countering, unless the rescuer has BT (and even then I've seen that fail with backwards-flailing Bubba) or simply pressuring gens to the point he feels he would rather not just have the 1k there is little else against a competent player, but the big issue is with the guy on the hook. That guy's game is over. It's extremely rare that I've been the victim of it, but it does suck.
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You are right - for the hooked it sucks. But it only takes a few minutes and you are in the next game. Try to not go down first.
But as you describe it you are right - i think Bubba is actually terrifying because most survs know, that all their beloved rescue perks maybe will not save them this time.
Maybe Bubba is the only real threatening Killer left in DbD.
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It saddens me that Bubbw gets so much flack for having such a premium camper kit, but that's just the reality of it. Some peeps will claim that camping is the only way you can play Bubba outside of baby ranks, but I call bs at that, as I play him fairly regularly and never camp, unless its und EGC and you obviously have nothing better to do.
What I love about Bubba is, that he puts the fear of the killer back into survivors. There is just something primal about him jumping out at you, revving his chainsaw and go ham. No cute bodyblocking or protection shenanigans work against him, if he gets you, you go down, so get the (BAD WORD) out of there.
My favorite is Tinkerer with Bubba. Often I got one survivor hooked pretty fast, and because of Bubbas camping reputation, a lot of survivors will just hold M1 at the gens, so werben Tinkerer goes off I often can jump right into the middle of a gen rushing party and start sawing. Its quite simple and not very sophisticated, but oh boy, is it fun.
So people who camp with Bubba leave all his awesome potential on the road. He isn't fast, but Tinkerer works disgustingly well with him, provided that you are willing to move his lazy bum.
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While I agree making hook trades and patrolling hooks are how certain killers and builds are played (demogorgon, twins, bubba, Myers to name a few) claiming that face-camping is not an issue is totally wrong.
Face-camping hooks isn't fun or interesting for either side. Yet as a killer I often feel forced to do it, and as survivor I often feel helpless against it and forced to bring BT and Decisive to counter.
Chases are fun, but getting downs in chases mean nothing compared to securing a death on hook. And that's where the problem lies. Too often it's just a better idea as killer to camp a hook to secure a kill than it is to let someone get away and easily heal so you have to chase them again.
Idk how to fix it, killers should definitely still be able to use proxy camping or force hook trades. But at the same time it shouldn't feel like the main way the game is played now. Neither side enjoys it. I'd much rather leave hook to patrol and chase the other survivors, I just know that I am often giving survivors an advantage by doing so.
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I always get irritated when people call out proxy camping, I mean, yes, face camping is super lame and I next to never do it unless its the EGC, but proxy camping is sorta the expected thing to do, isn't it? When I hook someone I move towards some gen on the area, but always keep an eye on the hook, because 95% someone will come for the rescue, and of you aren't sneaky about it, but unhook in the open, well, then the free hit is nothing that the killer should be ashamed off.
After playing a bit more survivor, I learned how bad and unfun true tunneling is and I normally let the unhooked surv escape (sometimes I follow them, though, and breath down their neck, letting them know that I could gotten them, before breaking off the chase) and go for the unhooker.
But why is it expected that the killer plays like he has Devour Hope equipped and runs off after a hook with blindfolds on?
That would be the same as asking survs to not look around when M1ing their gens, so that killers can get free grabs.
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I'm assuming he's talking about how she's just like Leatherface in that a survivor gets downed once and can pretty much be guaranteed dead if the killer chooses. With Leathface you just camp. With Pig, you can allow the person to get off hook, because as long as you don't allow them to get the trap off their head, they're dead. You can just follow them the whole time until their head gets drilled, then have NOED to get another kill.
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To this day I disagree with his rework. He didn't need the charges mechanic and the refresh add-ons and all that. He just needed to not slow down to 80% when holding up his chainsaw. Now he can chainsaw for like 10 seconds, it's absolutely overkill.
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They won't be dead at 5 gens unless they rage quit or their teammates don't do gens. But I know what you mean.
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There should be no scenario where because one side has something, you have to just take the loss. It's different for survivor because 1 person dying, even yourself, isn't the end of the world. But when there's zero counter and you just have to take the loss, we shouldn't normalize that. We've gotten rid of plenty of stuff that completely had counterplay, yet have left in Leatherface camping.
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I want killer to be the power role and be feared, because they really never have been, but Leatherface instadowning multiple people isn't the way. Killers should be able to kill survivors and win, through chases and pressuring gens, not just one OP interaction with their power.
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The downing multiple survivor mechanic very seldom comes into play, outside of unsave unhooking, yet when it happens you feel super awesome, because you normally massively outplayed the survivors. Its such a double-edged sword: good survivors nowadays don't respect the killer at all and will unhook in your face in the most unsave ways possible. You can't do that vs Bubba, which is a good thing ... but by its very nature this also facilitates facecamping hooks, which no one wants to endorse.
In the end it comes down to the player behind Bubba. Some peeps see no other way of scoring hits but via face-camping, but most people agree that even for this players it can't be a very interesting or rewarding experience. But even some rather simple change like "multiple downs at the unhooking don't work" will lead to cocky survivor again. Its a though nut to crack :V
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Bubbas chainsaw should stop when he downs a survivor, I just downed 3 survivors in a row after my tinkerer activated and they didn't notice I was coming, the other guy disconnected...
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That's on them for having zero situational awareness. Yeah, chainsawing Bubba is fast, but he's not super speed fast and clumped survivors COULD split.
"Bubba needs nerfs because MULTIPLE PEOPLE didn't look around" is definitely not true.
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Ironically, he and insta-kill Myers are probably the 2 genuinely scary killers remaining, because of the fear of what they can do. This leads into a rather weird scenario: 2 killers who have powers that can feel very unfair in certain scenarios also are 2 of the few times where you genuinely feel the killer is threatening and the game feels like there is something to fear, which (for me at least) is what I want from this game when playing survivor.
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Nurse has No Counterplay...?
...Wat
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Why would anyone play Bubba then when that would be the same thing Hillbilly does but worse?
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Are we absolutely sure they weren't already afk? Tinkerer just hides the heartbeat, doesn't do anything to hide the chainsaw sound or that there's a giant guy running towards you.
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Actually there's a bug that's been in the game for months or years where the chainsaw revving is silent for some reason. It's like if he's not in-frame for you, his chainsaw revving is silent. You'll be hearing chase music and then suddenly "Huh huh huh guh huh!" with no telltale.
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Been waiting forever for them to change this. There aren't enough Survivors whining consistently about that specific issue for it to be addressed obviously.
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I am preaching this on the forums all the time. Bubba gets a bad reputation for having the premium camper kit, but because of his instadown power he is one of the last actually scary killers that you can't bodyblock, run circles around, clickety click and t-bag or all the other shenanigans. If he is near you either run, evade or you go down. I don't understand why so many people apparently play basement camping Bubba, while you can have so much fun upstairs with Tinkerer Bubba.
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Leatherface camping does need to be fixed, but part of me likes it as a Bubba main. Having the power to decide who is 100% dying because I can stand and watch them slowly die, is a power Iove. I generally only face camp if the survivors are toxic, or are using boons.
Having an easy way out, is pretty fun tbh.
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Except MMR is a thing, meaning a camping Bubba, by BHVR's logic, should be bannable for forcing a negative situation. Back in the day, depip squads actually faced bannable offenses since they actively went after killers to depip them, under the clause of "Targeting specific users repeatedly in order to ruin their game experience". Since they actively targetted killers, the most extreme depip squads were shut down. Yet, Bubba who easily has a similar argument as they consistently target 1 survivor and facecamp them to death was never considered an issue since facecamping itself wasnt considered an offense and Bubba simply had a coincidental ability.
But nowadays, you actively lose MMR when facecamped by a Bubba. And since you're the first one to die, you lose the most possible points too. It's very easy to argue that a facecamping Bubba is grieving your game.
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Unless you can go AFK while repairing the generator holding m1 and unless the character can stop repairing and start the running animation while AFK then no... I admit they were dumb and I wasnt exactly very visible since they were doing one of those gens that is kinda blocked by a long wall and they still tried to run but kinda sandbagged each other...but still I feel there should be something to stop 3 insta downs, like get 1 insta down and subsequent hits only hurt 1 health state and puts them into deep wounds or something like that.
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It is also a good argument for having more killers which have a close-ranged attack. We get a lot of ranged killers or "anti-loop" killers, and yet the up close and personal killers seem to be the ones which can strike the most fear.
Although, I've read that the Ringu chapter is bringing in a unique killer ability that's focusing on horror, so if that's done correctly then maybe there will be new avenues for killer ideas.
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But even with that glitch, you still hear the chase music and still see the giant with the tree trimming equipment, yes?
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Not traditionally afk, but it's definitely easy to lure yourself into a state of not paying attention as you wait for skill checks.
So what we have is a situation where multiple survivors didn't pay attention and got surprised by the killer, who then took them down as they ran into each other trying to get away. That again seems less like a problem with any particular game mechanics, and more an issue of players not paying attention.
Full disclosure, I hate playing bubba. He just doesn't work with my killer playstyle, however I do love playing against him. It's fun and dangerous. When I hear a chainsaw and realize it's just Billy, I end up disappointed, because he doesn't feel nearly as dangerous, in part because his chainsaw is crap. Going by what I'm going to call "standard horror logic" the big mutants with chainsaws should be able to go through survivors like they are made of paper.
I think Bubba's chainsaw being able to slice through multiple survivors at once is not only logical for the killer, but balanced by the fact that he has no real speed and no range whatsoever. Also the tantrum mechanic really balances and adds risk to trying to get a multi-hit. As soon as the survivors hear that chainsaw, they should know that being grouped up is a risk.
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Yes, but I'm being robbed of an important sound cue because of a bug.
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