Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Get all the details on our forums: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436478/sign-up-now-to-receive-a-recap-of-your-2024-dead-by-daylight-stats/p1?new=1
We should encourage better playstyles, not punish the current ones.
I always see complaints about how killers that tunnel and camp are bad, or they are boring and should be punished in some way and blah blah blah. The thing is, This playstyle, as tedious as it is, is a valid strategy, punishing those who use it will only fuel this gang fight that the dead by daylight discussion has become. We should encourage killers not to camp, rather than punish camping itself. In response to the gen rush, we gave survivors boon totems, which encourage them to make secondary goals, I believe this was a step in the right direction, although I think a boon totem in specific needs Changes *cof cof CoH*
We don't have anything like that for killers, except maybe, devour hope, but it's a totem, not exactly the most consistent thing available.
Comments
-
I agree with this sentiment in part. I don't feel that some types of camping should be valid playstyles - specifically, players who load into the game intending to camp and do nothing else for the bulk of the game, and then maybe clean up the rest with NOED. I think that's no effort, no skill, and bad for game health - it creates games that aren't fun for anyone, and it's way too effective on certain killers to get away with easy it is to pull off. I would be 100% down for punishing that and making it nonviable, and I don't think anything of value would be lost. However, I have trouble imagining how you could successfully punish this playstyle without punishing all of the very valid reasons to camp - endgame, only one other survivor, another objective in the area that needs defending (which may be a second hook), knowing another survivor is hiding in the area, having no idea where anyone is, wanting to secure a partially progressed hook stage, recognizing the team is super altruistic and will probably rush the hook, needing to remove a boon from the game. I'm sure I missed some, but the point is, there's lots of reasons to camp. Players always need the flexibility to use these strategies and hard mandates for no camping, no tunneling, and no slugging would easily destroy the killer role.
I actually think Plaything does a fairly good job of being such a perk? It encourages you to hook everyone at least once, and to go out and about in order to reap the benefit of survivors being oblivious. The reward is game slowdown and super easy hits, both of which are negated by camping and tunneling.
Make Your Choice is another excellent anti-camp and anti-tunnel perk that rewards the killer handsomely for doing neither. Granted, it doesn't encourage you to stray too far away from the hook, but it wants you to go after the unhooker and the minimum distance allows both players to split up so that the killer can't easily down them both.
I'd never say no to more of these, though. We can always use more playstyle-altering, good-reward-for-playing-fair perks.
7 -
The people who want punishment are coming from a place of spite. They don't want rewards for people playing in different ways. They want to harm those who dare play in the ways they don't approve. People seem very oppossed to the idea of incentivizing people to not do something, rather than punishing them if they do. Meanwhile the "punishment" method has been tried several times already and has failed every time. But still, people want to see one side harmed for playing effectively.
Give the killer a reason to leave the hook. Give them something where leaving the hook is better than staying, without it being a flat "You are being punished if you don't listen." make it actually effective and worth while to leave and go to the corner of the map, rather than just telling people they need to do that OR ELSE. People are never going to respond well to suggestions of punishing others for valid play. Figure out why killers camp and then give them something to do that is A. Also very effective but B. Is not boring for either side. I don't what that would be, but I'm also not a dev paid a living wage to design the game. But creating something like that is a better place to look than "CAN THE DEVS PLEASE FLY TO KILLERS HOMES AND BEAT THEM UP IF THEY CAMP?!" type posts that have plagued this board the past day or two.
12 -
Make a Devour Hope mechanic baseline :> Something like a token per unhooking from 28m away, and per token you get +3% faster hook progression/blood points.
3 -
COH is new, tunneling and camping have been around forever. Is that to say COH shouldn't be nerfed? No. But to use a relatively new perk as a defense against 2 strategies that effectively lock at least 1 survivor out from playing the game is not the defense you think it is. There is no way to 'encourage Killers not to camp/tunnel' without punishing it. You have to make the strats less viable to get a 2 or a more K from the outset. Meaning, camping can't be lucrative at 1 gen completed and 1 hook. Survs need (potentially) better tools to deal with being tunneled.
I have literally body blocked Killers from a recently unhooked teammate and had them ignore me to go get that person. There's nothing I can do as a teammate in that scenario because the Killer is always faster than me except carry a flashlight and hope I can get into position soon enough to prevent the second hook. (Which is time I'm not doing gens, so yay, free pressure for the Killer.)
Camping has been around forever.
And COH does absolutely NOTHING against tunneling or camping.
3 -
I never said that circle of healing does anything against camping or tunneling, I just said that, unlike the other boon totems, CoH is overpowered, and I don't use that word lightly. and we are Speaking of lowering some numbers in a perk vs creating an entirely new mechanic that doesn't punish innocent players and isn't easily exploitable. Two different things, one is easier than the other, and this thread wasn't even about the CoH, I just used the boon totems as an example of positive reinforcement with the exception of CoH because that was actually a bad idea.
0 -
It doesn't sound to me like you are speaking of "lowering numbers". You're comparing a new perk to old strats. These two things are not comparable at the end of the day. Yes, survivors hate being tunneled/camped out of a game. This is not new. What does that have to do with CoH? Nothing.
1 -
I don't think you understand what I mean. I said that we need to encourage better playstyles, and that we did that when we added boon totems for survivors, with the only exception being CoH not being good for the game's health. I've never compared both, I think you really should read my post again if you think so
0 -
This is a videogame, and it is supposed to be enjoyable for everyone.
Camping and tunnelling destroy can destroy the fun, completely.
The hooking mechanic has to be deleted, it is the biggest source of toxicity in this game. Survivors should just go down and respawn in a safe area of the map, where killers have no access, with multiple exits, and they need to be rescued by their teammates.
No more camping, no more tunnelling, no more nonsense. It is BEYOND belief that after 5 years a person can be downed and doesn't get to play the game because they are facecamped and tunnelled, it is absolutely wrong. (and it is not killers' fault either, it is the mechanic to be wrong).
With camping and tunnelling gone, we can then rework the survivors' objective considering that each survivor has 3 lives and there is no way to cheat that. Longer games, better interactions.
And based on how the games are going buff killers to compensate.
1 -
I did read your post and you are comparing them. You cannot, absolutely cannot take complaints about tunneling and camping and compare them to complaints about ONE boon totem. Two of those have been around for literal years. The other has existed for a few months.
And COH 'not encouraging better playstyles' is very vague. What do yo mean there? There are, for Killer and surv, a handful of things that actually matter. What deplorable playstyle does COH encourage?
1 -
I'm literally not comparing, I really don't know why you think that. I'll assume you're trolling because it doesn't really make sense
0 -
You can assume that if you want. However, you might want to go back and read your opening post and then clarify your actual intention.
Also, accusing someone of being 'a troll' because they don't agree with the POV you present is not a valid strat.
1 -
Yeah, I'll try to explain it to you again, but after that I literally give up.
"In response to the gen rush, we gave survivors boon totems, which encourage them to make secondary goals, I believe this was a step in the right direction"
I open this paragraph with the comparison of gen rush with tunneling, and use boon totems as an example of what to do to encourage killers not to camp. Boon totems are great, They encourage survivors not to just stick to generators and do other things for that extra edge. and I believe that for the most part, they will do the game more good than harm. But I end the paragraph with the only mention of CoH in the entire post.
"although I think a boon totem in specific needs Changes *cof cof CoH*"
I did this because CoH can take all the pressure off a killer if he loses survivor for a few seconds, destroy tri-gen strategies, and obliterate some killers like twins and hag.
At no point did I compare CoH with tunnel and camping, the only comparison was between Tunnel and Camp with GenRush, and with boon totems and a possible incentive to make killers not use this strategy. I didn't compare CoH to anything in particular, and if after that you still think I did, I literally give up, think what you want.
0 -
I appreciate your clarification. However, I have to ask, why do you think strats as old as camping and tunneling are the same as boons? Boons don't inherently encourage Killers to not camp. Especially not COH. And I think I roughly understand that your issue is with COH in particular, but why? Yes, it can cost the Killer pressure, but why shouldn't it? If a boon doesn't give survs - as an individual or a team - an advantage, why bother taking it? And yes, 3 gens are a big deal for Killer! But they are also a big deal for survs in breaking. I'm not sure what your point here is.
KIllers need to protect a 3 gen, survs need to break it. That's the game?
Gen rush is partly a thing because of tunneling and camping. The best - generally - thing survs can do is slam out gens, especially with a campy killer. If you're not comparing COH to camping and tunneling and I am somewhat struggling for what's frustrating you here and I do, honestly want to understand.
1 -
all i did was praise boons totems as a incentive for survivors not to genrush. This in particular has nothing to do with tunneling and camping, I just said, That we should do something to encourage killers not to tunnel, the same way we made boon totems for survivors not to genrush. That's the point of the post, to encourage better plays, Instead of punishing the existing ones.
and I'm really not in the mood to discuss CoH, I just used it as an example, (not to compare it to tunneling and camping, The thing I compared to tunneling and camping was genrush) CoH deserves a post just for itself
0 -
Scientifically, encouragement works better than punishment overall, due to the idea of growth. You can see this in how pets react to obedience in response to treats, or competitions where people compete to get the victory and rewards.
I agree that Boons offered something to reward survivors for extra tasks, and the feedback for adding new things like the pumpkins and snowmen was overall positive.
In terms of playstyle, I wonder whether there should be BP or rift shard bonuses for using lesser perks or going in without add-ons or items. Maybe have a tally system, whereby over a longer period (maybe 2-3 months) people are rewarded cosmetics or auric cells or something for using certain perks x amount of times, or playing both sides equally. I know it's not well thought as this was a crude idea, but if by offering incentives for more varied and positive playstyles, this in turn may improve satisfaction and empqthy.
1 -
The viscous cycle continues
Boons being a thing does give benefit to Totems being an in game mechanic other then Cleansing (something that I thought others wanted it... but I can be mistaken)
The Gen-Rush vs. Camping and Tunneling are two sides of the same coin... both are up to whomever plays this game.... and both are the reasons for the other
Hexes and Boons are two different mechanics according to the Devs... by no means am I defending the strength of Boons but just offering a reasons as to why
1 -
Losing in any game can destroy someones fun. My suggestion is to not play a PVP game if losing is just anathema to someones existence. I don't have fun when survivors slam 5 gens out in 3 and a half minutes, but that's the game. The survivors are not in charge of my fun and I am not in charge of theirs. If you want people to play differently, reward them for doing so.
"I didn't get to play the game." Yeah, you did, you just apparently got downed out of the gate for some reason (clearly not the survivors fault, of course) and now you're in a bad spot. You can get eliminated first in fortnite, too.
1 -
The last time the devs tried that we got the original BBQ that had fewer ways to counter the aura-reading. It was meant to incentivize the killer to leave the hooked survivor be and go chase someone else that they saw across the map.
Do you know what happened?
Survivors started complaining endlessly about the perk being unfair, overpowered, the lot. Eventually, BBQ got its nerfs and nowadays, it's just used for bloodpoints as there are so many ways now to hide the aura, that it's not really worth it anymore to leave the hook, you're not seeing anyone anyways half of the time.
There's a reason we can't have nice things in this game.
1 -
Gen speeds should be tweaked. Should go slower with only one survivor on a Gen, and faster with more. Currently there's a -15% to progression for survivors working on the same Gen.
Doesn't make sense. Splitting up to do gens is the safest strategy for survivors, it spreads the killers pressure thin. And yet somehow they've also designed it so that splitting gens is also the most efficient way to do them. This makes it incredibly hard for killers to exert enough pressure through chasing, forcing them to tunnel kills, hover a 3-gen, and camp hooks.
Survivors should have to coordinate and attack the same Gen together if they want to rush gens. This makes Gen rushing risky, but still viable, and allows the killer to go stop and protect gens. Not to mention it reduces the effective area a killer has to pressure to slow the game down, and if they do split up on gens then the gens should go slower anyways.
Not to mention it rewards good survivor teamwork, while also making it easier for a killer to punish and play around. Leaving the hook is a more promising endeavor if you know you're likely to find the other survivors grouped on the same Gen.
It'd likely also mean that messing up (taking longer than 30 seconds to down) on an early chase likely wouldn't cost you 2-3 gens anymore. Nearly 50% survivor objective for less than 10% of your own, its what forces you to camp as a killer.
0 -
NOED is love, NOED is life.
2 -
This is a pretty broad and vague thought, but I think what is needed is two-fold: Find out what the most miserable and unfun strategies are and weaken them, and simultaneously find ways to make the more fun strategies actually better. Like, for camping and/or, find a way to weaken the strategy of forcing a single person out of the game while actually finding a meaningful way to make spreading out hooks a more viable and enticing strategy beyond "at least I'm not upsetting the other side as much."
0 -
Slamming gens in 3 minutes should not happen either, by removing camping and tunnelling then you can introduce real, compulsory secondary objectives for survivors. As a result everyone has more interactions, longer and more meaningful games, there is ZERO reason to defend camping, like there is no reason to defend gen rushing or OP loops
0 -
Nah. The game has to get rid of these "valid strategies". Its just annoying as hell and isnt needed in any way.
1 -
Deathslinger with M&A was a better playstyle because it didn't involve camping and tunneling to have power, but then they nerfed him. Same with Spirit and Wraith, who were also nerfed. Circle of Healing has also killed hit and run.
0 -
What about a haste boost for like 5 seconds if you leave a certain area in a certain time? Get a little bit of a snowball effect going to get your next hook maybe?
0 -
Deathslinger and Wraith nerfs were BS, Spirit kinda deserved the nerf, and yes, CoH urgently needs a change.
0 -
This is exactly it.
killers need incentive to not camp and tunnel.
The incentive is its valuable to chase another survivor and still have a chance at winning.
How many games by midway have 2-3 hooks and 3-4 gens done. At that point its stacked heavily in survivors favor and there is less and less incentive to commit to chases. This is the new norm. (its not impossible to win but its an uphill battle)
Killers tunneling are just being efficient with kills similar to survivors splitting up on gens. However the dead player is eliminated, so players hate on tunneling when really its the most efficient play a killer can make, its basically hook rushing and should be anticipated if not expected.
As for camping, defensive play is often higher value than aggressive play for killers especially when facing altruistic teams making camping a viable strategy. More so if teams have good map knowledge and bring chase extending 1v1 perks which is the current meta, DH being a prime example.
Face camping/basement camping at 5 gens can also be strong against altruistic teams. But one person has to hang on hook so they feel victimised via non-participation. This leads to all the "unfun for all, boring, toxic, players only do this to grief, punish everyone who does this, blah blah blah etc". These arguments are born of spite, nothing more and really are just crap arguments. These are usually people calling for punishments and really shouldn't be taken seriously as any suggestion they have is marred by emotion and largely irrational.
So how to incentivise killers to leave the hook.
Make strong chase killers that get quick downs - hated by the community as "anti-loop" so-called unfun.
Change survivor 1v1 abilities - hated by the community and can also disproportionately punish solo players so-called unfun.
Increase gen repair time/add better slow down - Hated by the community so-called boring and unfun.
Punish camping with survivor bonuses due to hook proximity - trialed in the past and abused heavily by SWF teams, any punishment is likely to result in this, making it a bad mechanic.
Give killers more BP's for chasing over camping - doesn't change game mechanics making camping and tunneling just as viable as before so not a real fix.
Anyone else got any suggestions?
Frankly its part of the game so just understand that it may happen and play around it as best you can without getting pissy. Its only a game.
1
