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'You Don't NEED A 4K!' - The Toxic Mindset
I heard this just yesterday or so.
It's this mindset from Survivors that Killers are toxic if they play to win. Or toxic they don't let the last Survivor go.
It's this mindset that Killers are supposed to think of Survivor fun, and play accordingly.
It's this mindset that Killers are to be shamed (called 'sweaty' and, of course 'toxic') if they don't put Survivors, THEIR OPPONENTS, first.
But you know what? It never works in reverse. I've never seen someone say 'You don't NEED a 4E!'.
I've never seen Survivors give the Killer a kill if they're all going to escape.
I've never seen Survivors shamed for playing for a 4E, or not thinking of Killers feelings.
It's a BS double-standard that underlies a large part of the community: That Killers are responsible for Survivor fun. That Killers can try 'too hard'. That Killers are supposed to give up Kills (and thus BP), because Survivors demand it.
You can see it in anti-camping threads; Whatever valid points there are, there is ALSO this reasoning of 'This person is being removed from the game, and that's unfair'. Except...The Killer's whole goal is to remove people from the game? That's the risk in a PvP game with no respawning?
This is the ONLY PvP game I've ever seen where people say it's unfair if they lose too fast.
You don't see people in a battle royale saying 'I died too fast because everyone found a gun first! So unfair! The last people to find guns should be immune to damage so they can have fun!'
Now, I'm not saying camping is not an issue. I'm saying that one line of reasoning is flawed, and based on this double-standard thought of 'Killers are being mean/unfair if they do their goal before I want to lose'.
Let me run over a few matches that show just why I'm very nearly burned out with this game and this double-standard. These are games I have actually had:
Example 1:
I try to 3 hook everyone. Hell, I don't really try to kill so much as I just play to have fun and get BP.
Survivors twerk at pallets. Clicky-click flashlights. Twerk at the exit gates.
End game chat: GGEZ noob! You suck! Baby killer! Uninstall scrub!
Example 2 (Before Hatch changes):
I play to 2 hook people. Turns out; 2 Solo's and a 2-man SWF. SWF does not save solos. Solos die pretty quick.
I hook 1 of the SWF. His buddy says 'I found hatch.' SWF 1 dies on hook ASAP while I'm looking for SWF 2, just jumps into hatch the picosecond it opens.
SWF 1 & 2: Noob scrub! Could not get a 4K! Why are you playing?
Me: You only got away due to sitting on the hatch.
SWF 2: So? That's because you suck! Uninstall, scrub!
Example 3:
I just try to kill. Not facecamping, but I stay near a hook if I know someone is nearby. I'm not giving any quarter. I get a 4K.
Survivors: Freaking sweat harder! We got 2 gens done! Scrub! Ever hear of giving hatch!? I was not struggling because I expected you to carry me to the hatch! Sweatlord!
It's this raging flood of toxicity. Try too little? Insults. Try too hard? Insults, coupled with this feeling of being entitled to an escape because 'something, something, fair play'.
But that fair play only goes one direction. And gets treated like a golden rule.
Many Survivors EXPECT this preferential treatment, and combust if they don't get it. Hell, I was playing in an SWF with a friend once, and we were insulting each other if we got hit, and even lying about where the Killer was to prank each other. We were not trying, at all.
My friend STILL exploded when he was the last kill, and the Killer did not give him hatch. Not in chat; he just started swearing over the mic. It was just built into him to expect it. I don't think it ever occurred to him that he would NOT get the hatch. Like, he seemed to think it was his reward for being the last Survivor.
I guess, what my point is (I'm bad at communicating), is that there's this flood of toxic thought in this game. And yes; it goes both ways. I'm not saying it does not. I'm not saying it's this 'us vs them' problem.
But it's compounded with this almost casual idea baked into many people now that Killers are supposed to cater to Survivors:
Don't kill too fast; that's not fair!
Don't camp; that's mean!
Be a good sport & don't go for that 4K; that's being a tryhard!
Don't play Killers we think are OP/toxic! (Known on the forums as 'I Disconnect when I see <x Killer>')
It's never:
Stop popping gens; the Killer only has 1 hook!
Don't 4E; that's being a tryhard!
Don't bring 16 meta perks; that's mean!
Sometimes, I want to just tell my friends that I'd rather stick toothpicks under my fingernails instead of play anymore. The toxicity just eats away at any goodwill either side attempts.
Comments
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If you'd rather "stick toothpicks under your fingernails" than playing the game, I think it's time to uninstall and play something that doesn't make you this upset.
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You care way too much about what your opponents in a game are saying.
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Tbf asides from that metaphor he has a fair point
I mean think about it for a second this is the only pvp game where the other sides fun is ever considered and I find that odd
In call of duty when I get shot the other guy isn't thinking damn I ruined that guys fun
In Tekken when I'm stomping someone and stealing their rank I'm not considering the other guys fun just like he's not considering mine
So it begs the question why is this game different?
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I don't disagree, but if the toxicity is that bad; it can kill a game.
Maybe so, but that does not fix the underlying problem; which is that too many people treat the 'other team' like a verbal punching bag and manservant.
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He does exact same thing as devs do, listen too much to one side, and current balance is the result.
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Toxicity in games will never end. People online feel free to be asshats, and that's just how things are. Do I like it? No.
I just found that it's better to ignore it. I have turned all my messages off to just friends, and rarely look at post game chat. It improved my time playing immensely.
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Just do you. Who cares what people say post match?
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I don't know why this post in perticular made me think of this but i have suddenly come to the realisation that i haven't had a toxic end game chat in months.
Regardless of how the match goes. Most of the times it's nothing or gg and sometimes it's complimenting me.
I am actually confused right now. What changed? I used to not be able to play with the chat box on.
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the only concession i'll give these days if i'm ahead is a hatch race :^)
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Leaving people on the floor to bleed out isnt fun and you deserve whatever endgame chat follows.
I'm not saying we aren't allowed to do this, but rather I think with the way the game is structured, therea really nothing you can do but just accept the insults.
Being forced to take a pee break mid game isnt exciting gameplay behavior so I'd like something to be done, like maybe implementing a Cowards Way Out if all alive survivors are bleeding out.
That's basically the only thing I have an issue with.
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I always let the killer kill me if he plays fair and he don’t get at least 1 kill
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Given you did not quote anyone, I'll assume you were responding to me, the OP.
'Leaving people on the floor to bleed out isnt fun and you deserve whatever endgame chat follows.'
- Look at that excuse to be toxic and mean. You set an standard that no one has to follow, then decided 'It's okay to be a dick if someone breaks this made-up rule'. This is the exact toxic self-excusing bullshit I'm talking about.
- I never once said anything about slugging, so I don't know where this even came from?
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Killers have a right to 4k, so you have a right to leave survivors slugged on the floor to bleed out. But others have a right to call you out on being so scared to eat a DS or whatever that the killer feels the need to waste everybody's time with.
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No one has a 'right' to treat anyone like dirt. It's amazing how many people can't comprehend this in 2021.
Instead it's 'You deserve what you get' and, in other games 'Banning me for being racist is facist! FREEDOM OF SPEECH!' (Yes, I saw this on the New World forums). And 'It's YOUR fault of my offensive words offend you!' (Also New World).
Apparently, with the internet, came the advent of 'I'm not responsible for my actions'.
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Well in this game's case IMO it's the mentality of "everyone does it why not me"
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Why should a player eat the DS? Why should a player take the extra time chasing someone? Taking a DS in a 1v1 scenario in end-game is a very very wrong thing to do for a killer player. Afraid to eat DS... yes let me just give you free use of your perk so i can look dumb.
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The only reason I would say something like you dont need the 4k is when the killer slugs the third survivor to go and try to find the 4th. i say this in regards to the killer not having an idea where the 4th is. IMO this does nothing but waste eveyones time. more then likely they will not find the 4th and hatch no longer spawns until the 3rd is dead so you cant even say they are confirming the 4k by trying to find hatch before hand.
The whole deal about survivors going for the 4E being a double standard, I dont agree with. It promotes the best part about any pvp game, interaction between both sides. I find it boring to see 3 people leave when ever I hook someone after 5 gens. Same when I am playing survivor if someone gets hooked at the beginning of EGC and I see the other 2 run out in fear of BW. Especially if it was a quick match.
As for the survivors in your examples. well they are just dumb and think it is all about them. The same can be said for killers who call survivors sweaty for going for stuns and flashlights.
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I'm a killer main, and they're right. You don't need a 4k. You don't need anything in the game.
Needs and wants are separate, and thinking otherwise is literally entitlement.
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"It's the way it is so don't change it." is that what I am understanding?
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Its not that you dont need a 4K its more of a "you shouldnt expect a 4K always", if you dont get 4K (or 3K+lucky hatch escape) on a regular basis is not the end of the world, same as Survivors shouldnt expect an escape always, if you die but you managed to do your part its not the end of the world either.
When I play Killer I dont expect to get 4K and I dont enter a match planning on sweating like if I were on a finnish sauna, if I get it nice, its the icing on the cake but as long as I have decent chases, good mindgames and enough hooks 2K is more than satisfying, the calmer you play the better you will perform, tension helps only your rivals and sweating as hard as some people do on this game is not good for your health (both sides included).
On a sidenote I almost never get any salt from Survivors and even if I 4K rarely any Survivor gets less than 15k points
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part of the problem relys on GENS NOT HAVING FEELINGS, but survivors do because they are people behind the screen, so playing for the 4E you know is like, u are not doing any "damage" to the killer there cause u are doing gens however when you are facmping a survivor they are not even allowed to play the game when they had to wait for 5 to 10 minutes cause wait times are terrible... it always was related to that.
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Do you know how to change it? No. You don't have the power to change other people, just yourself.
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And the same side that will tell you that attempting to win too fast is "toxic and mean" will tell you intentionally BMing with clicking and tbagging isn't toxic or mean because "I didn't stop you from playing the game :))))"
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Going by the -30% steam userbase drop over the past few months, that seems to be a popular thing to do.
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Honestly when I play the game I absolutely loathe MMR, so when I'm playing survivor I will stay in the trial until EGC kills me while pointing at a hook.
The problem with wanting to give a kill to a killer is that they are usually too proud to take it, or maybe they don't want the MMR either so instead they try to get you to leave or will just ignore you.
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"I've never seen Survivors shamed for playing for a 4E, or not thinking of Killers feelings."
That is not true. Killers also shame survivors for trying to win.
Killers shame survivors for using dead hard saying the person using it have no skill which is just rude and not true.
Killers shame survivors for playing with friends saying they are cheating and that it also doesn't take skill.
Killers shame survivors for using legitimate means and for sweating too.
Not to mention that most killers consider everything survivors does as Toxic and can say the same things. Don't make this behavior only a survivor trait.
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In CoD and Tekken you're both fighting from ostensibly even footing and equal loss potential - if you "lose" you can also pick yourself up and hope for a comeback, and all while just doing your objective.
Survivors doing their objective aren't fighting the killer, unlike similar games like White Noise, F13, The Hidden, VHS, et al. Games like DBD or Propnight are objective-based on one side, PVP on the other, which creates an inherently asymmetrical playspace but also mindset for the game by introducing both types of play. Objective-based games trend toward consideration of both sides, as they're usually a metaphorical tug-of-war: even if you're denying the other side, you have to consider the other side's 'board state'.
The vacuum of skill on the objective-based part of the game (mindless M1 and hooks) on both sides created a chase meta that wasn't intended when DBD was released - this was supposed to be a stealth objective game, and now it's an action slasher hybrid. These hybrid gameplay setups are why the game is different, both in mentality and survivability compared to a lot of its peers.
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Play for what you want to play for, have your own objective and your own rules. Nobody can tell you anything, disable chat and have fun. This game is a game you play for your fun and yours alone
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Actually I say you dont need a 4E all the time same as 4k but i play both sides.
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Because the match is over quickly. Or in case of COD you just respawn. Youre not on a hook for 2 minutes or the ground for 4 minutes or being tunneled until dead getting barely any bp or pipping fo this.
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Oh heavens not 2 whole minutes on the hook! Can I start hating console players now for making me wait 2 minutes at the loading screen while their ancient console loads? Many PVP games have you dying early, eliminated, no respawn, and that's that. This is the only one where people expect hand holding, probably because they don't actually want a PVP game but a co-op experience with their friends vs an AI.
"I have to spend like a minute on the hook before I can go to my next game so it's bad if the killer tries to win."
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ya know you can disable post game chat.
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You are right, but people have some issues with the fact that you are sorta punished for doing well, which isn't the standard in most multiplayer games. Yes, in Overwatch or LoL you will eventurally raise through the ranks if all you play is ladder, until you hit you skill ceiling, but this games seem to have much different skill brackets then dbd.
Because there is no unranked game mode, if you are rather good at the game, you will be thrown in with the other rather good players all the time, and the asymetric nature of the game means that this leads to a lot of sweaty games, and probably a lot of more stress for the killer then the survivors, who often have at least one supporting friend on coms.
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At least be accurate when being pithy.
"I have to spend two minutes on the hook before I can go to my next [2-15 minute queue for a game which seems a 50/50 shot at being another camp session] so it's bad if the killer tries [a logistically bad tactic that's only successful if my teammates play poorly]"
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But ignoring it and treating it like it's not a big deal is why it's such a wide spread problem. Could you imagine if thats how we treated real life like people just run around saying offensive stuff and been like oh you care to much what people say. There's a line and the dbd community doesn't have one.
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Killers don't need to 4k, but Survivors don't need to escape. ;)
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Thats a healthy mindset, yet I have never, ever once experienced, that in a game, where the survivors were dominating, they left the last person to die on hook. Once the 5th gen is popped, one will go to 99% the gate, while the other two go for the unhook, and with BT and bodyblocking, there is next to nothing the killer can do, to at least secure 1K. You feel like a hare, circled by vultures.
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Underrated post. Disabling the chat as both killer and survivor is one of the best things I've ever done.
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I do however, need my bbq stacks, so hand them over
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Before MMR, I used to give my life for killers who played well or seemed like they needed a boost.
As a killer main, I view upping MMR as a punishment, though: I pretty quickly stopped sacrificing myself because I don't want killers to be forced to sweat just to participate.
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The queue being long is caused by the toxic mindset toward killers lol I haven't touched killer since the first few days of Artist. Why? I am sick of survivors being toxic because I dare to win rather than just let them win. Maybe your queues will shorten when the toxic mindset this thread is about starts to go away. But it seems the people who have that mindset refuse to drop it. Buff killers, stop being toxic if they try to win, and maybe you won't have a 20 minute queue after the killer tunnels you out because he feels it's the only way he can win due to gens being done in under 4 minutes.
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I'm a killer main, and I agree that the game is horrendous towards mid-high tiers of killer play.
Fact remains, though, it's just a bunch of self-fulfilling cycles of abuse, and neither side is innocent as long as they aren't recognizing their own negative impact.
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Idk what cod or Tekken games you are playing but you are almost never playing on equal footing as you call it their is always someone better then you that's exactly why you lose because they were better then you
I wouldnt call getting outskilled equal footing again idk what games your playing but there's game modes in cod where when you die you don't respawn and in Tekken when you lose you just lose you can't undo your loss
Survivors doing their objective is playing against the killer that's the whole point of the game
Let me rephrase it in a way that makes sense
League of legends is a popular team based game often due to good team mates or bad team mates you either ######### on the enemy team or they destroy you guys throughout the game nobody elses fun is ever considered not the enemy team or even your own team mates and you can still be trashed or carried by team mates just like solo q in dbd
Yet you don't see people complaining about the other sides fun
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CoD's progression system is a better comparison to DBD, but in Tekken if you 'lose' it's specifically because you got outplayed: the 'even footing' is that both sides have access to the same arsenal. Same goes (for the most part) in CoD - you really can't keep comparing symmetrical games to asymmetrical ones and pretending you have a point.
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What is this "win" i keep hearing about what's a "win" please tell me because for me it isnt a 4k or 4 man out. Console players? Don't most PC players already hate them? Which is funny because it's framed as console players are bad when it's actually playing on console is much harder (way less fps, way less input sensitivity on controller compared to mouse) of course PC players always fail to mention that. So idk why you would complain about an ez 4k on these "bad" console players.
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When it comes to this debate I find that most people miss the point entirely. The first thing we have to acknowledge is that this game is peculiar because there is significant grey area in what actually constitutes a winning performance. Most games are binary in the fact that you either win or you lose with absolutely no middle ground. Players entering this game can easily be dismayed by the uncertainty surrounding a 2k 2e game.
Players who achieve a 4k get an undeniable sense of victory and therefor many killers consider that the benchmark for a good performance. People have to realize that this game is not necessarily about winning or losing but rather getting an enjoyable experience from the gameplay.
That being said I believe killers have every right to complain because the current meta is incredibly frustrating to play around. It seems like a significant number of games are tedious and stressfull because of the balancing issues.Id rather have a 2 o 1k game that feels good to play than a 4k stomp of newbies anyday. Likewise i'd rather have a tense game as a survivor with some casualties then an all out gen rush against a baby killer. The maps are big, complicated and full of boring loops and the added pressure of swf squads make for stressfull game play. I guarantee less players would complain about 4ks if the average match felt better to play.
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Are you calling survivors hypocritical? Wow, such a toxic killer main. My 4 man swf would gg ez rofl stomp you into the correct mind set, bro. 4v1 us.
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you know why people have this mindset? casue they are get used to being carried and winning without efforts (and skill) by their second chances stuff (a valid example was a match that i did yesterday... imagine using dead hard, deliverance, ds, unbrekable and a instaheal in haddonfield against a trapper with yellow addons, ALL this in a SINGLE match and you'll get the idea why they feel so entitled to have 4 escapes). with this in mind people know that the killer can't be a real threat if you aren't completely braindead as survivor, add the fact that SWF are another BIG issue that devs won't fix and the fact that toxicity and cheats aren't punished (more than 1 month ago i reported 2 people, 1 for blatant cheats with a video and various screenshots where he was admitting that he was cheating as proofs and the other for racism/racial slurs... i'm still waiting their answer)... also add the fact that they are 4 guys vs 1 (if the survivor have a similar mindset from each other you can bet your soul that they'll unite to harass you, no matter what) and you have "the entire picture" regarding thier double standard
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There was only 1 time I remember getting a pity kill and at was years ago by a red rank squad on farm after I was clowned on a wraith being low ranked.
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