Franklin's - A perk, counters an offering, White Ward. Survivors can't do the same.

Like i said just make it like the key addon. Item poofs away when you die and it shows white ward is active on said item when you have it in your hand. Franklins still gets to make the item useless. But survivor actually doesnt waste their offering if their m1d into deathhook. And no duping. This is coming from a mostly killer btw feel the need to iterate that.

Because that would allow for duping

Bring a strong medkit with WW and a friend. Give them the medkit. Let them escape, you do whatever.

Boom they have a medkit and you get yours back. You could even dupe the strongest addons with that ace perk

That to prevent this from happening allows franklins to beat WW is a very minor setback.

If they could code it so WW protects your item no matter what without allowing it to be duped then i would be all for it.

Untill then, it really isn't that big of an issue. You can pick the item back up and use lockers to deny the franklin hit later

I already outlined how you could make White Ward work while preventing survivors from item duping. It's really not that hard.

There's no valid reason to want to delete survivors' items after a match if they brought a rare offering meant specifically to prevent that from happening. During a match, yes, absolutely, but afterwards is just spite.

But that build works by punishing greed in the match. If survivors keep coming back to their trapped item to try and retrieve it, they get hit. If they leave the item until the end, they're fine and Hag will have wasted her traps.

Again. Explain to me why it matters to you if the survivor keeps their item after the match. You're not realistically going to play with them again. "Survivors shouldn't get to have as many items as they do?" That's just subjective complaining about the strength of survivor items. They have items in the bloodweb and they have an offering that specifically lets them keep an item even if they die. Using a white ward with a good item isn't greed any more than using a black ward and alch ring/crow is greed, or MDR/cherry blossom is greed. The offering should do what it's intended to do regardless of the other side's perks and let you keep the item after the match. It would be equally moronic if survivors had a perk that incidentally let them consume the killer's addons despite Black Ward.

They keep coming back to the item because they want to keep it during and AFTER the match.

If I had a red map and lost it to a Franklin Hag, I would try to retrieve it to keep it after the match. I don’t need it anymore when I already know now where gen / totems spawns are.

Franklin is fun because you see all these survivors mourn about their item or get punished for their greed. That’s why it’s a meme perk, I don’t want a perk that simply disable the item for the match, there is nothing fun about that.

This advantage is fair and must continue! the assassin also loses as she needs this advantage just to deactivate the item the survivor is carrying. She just does that and nothing else.

DBD is NOT a competitive game. Perks, addons, killers and powers are not balanced around wins at all, otherwise survivors would get nerfed hard and you would be the first to complain.

Perks like insidious, franklin, peeble are meant to be fun. They are a lot of fun addons like Nurse having a fast walking speed but no blink, you don’t win playing these kind of addons.

If you want a balanced and fair game, start nerfing dead hard, ds as a weapon, bt as a weapon, gen speed, totem and gen spawn, map size BEFORE talking about franklin.

...Congratulations on completely shifting the goalposts?

I've got over 2000 posts in this forum. If you think I've never discussed any of those other things, or that we're not allowed to discuss relatively minor issues until BHVR gets around to addressing the major ones, which historically takes 2-5 years if ever, you're... very off base.

I'm talking about Franklins and White Ward because this is a thread about Franklins and White Ward. If you want my opinion on all of those other things, you're free to have them. In order:

DBD as a competitive game - This whole topic is very much a YMMV and while there's fair arguments for and against, I cannot take your opinion as fact here. I'm personally of the mind that it is a competitive game, and that the majority of the community also sees it this way, because it's played like a competitive game most of the time, not as a party game, and most of the variant 'party game' type elements have been removed or nerfed over time for the sake of balance. Also, I'd consider myself a killer main, so you wouldn't see me complaining at all if survivors got nerfed? Survivor role at peak performance is basically uncounterable and killer role unhealthily depends on survivor role making mistakes. I'm just not a ''killer main'' that believes killer uber alles and never touches survivor because they're stupid and icky and deserve to suffer, so to some people that looks like I'm a survivor main. >_>

Fun addons - I'd rather see more useful addons than 'fun' addons. Does anyone actually like the meme addons? If they're totally neutral like Party Bottle or they provide a viable alternate playstyle like Tablet Fragment, sure, but stuff like Padded Jaws or Scarred Hand are less 'fun' and more 'handicap' and the vast majority of players regard them as bloodweb clutter. I've never seen a Nurse use the iri you're talking about and I've played plenty of Nurses.

Dead Hard - I don't despise it as much as some people do, but I do still hate it. Validation made it worse with misleading feedback and eating powers that would have normally gone through and potentially hit the survivor on the other end of Dead Hard. Best case scenario, it cucks you out of the hit you thought you finally managed to earn; worst case scenario, it's a regenerating third health state and the survivor pretty much always gets a free move-to-another-loop card. It's not an enjoyable perk to play against and it's everywhere due to its strength and ease of use. It's second in line after CoH in survivor perks that I think need nerfing (but I do think CoH is much worse.)

DS as a weapon - in its previous incarnation, it was absolutely busted and by far the nastiest survivor perk in the game. Nowadays - I'd say 90% of the time, I can tell when a survivor has DS and wants me to pick them up. If someone's being aggressive after they got unhooked, and remains so after a BT whack or towards the end of the BT timer, they have DS, so slug 'em or let them keep wasting time by dancing for your attention. They can't do anything useful for a minute if they want to DS you, and slugging them forces a teammate to move and rescue them (or wastes their Unbreakable if they've got it.) If they try to run away from you and you down them and get DSed, that's not weaponization, that's just tunneling.

BT as a weapon - more annoying and more difficult to deal with than DS as a weapon. Equally easy to tell when people have it, but less you can do about it. Should be dealt with by making a survivor with BT active lose collision for the duration of Endurance.

Gen speed - in my opinion, this isn't really the problem. The problem is map resources and chase time. You'll do fine if survivors don't know how to use their surroundings to the maximum effect, and increasing gen time would punish the weaker levels of the game unduly. If they do know how to run tiles, it's difficult if not outright impossible to get your first down before losing gens, and this persists until most or all strong tiles on the map have been cleared.

Totem spawn - A mess. Some maps have good placement and some maps have horrendous placement. Totems shouldn't spawn right out in the open next to gens (hidden near gens, sure - those ones tucked in rubble corners in Crotus Prenn are pretty tight), and they shouldn't spawn in highly visible spots like on hills or next to trees. Boons created a new dimension of issue to this by turning previously helpful isolated catwalk/extra floor totems into disgustingly powerful killer diversions, but that's its own unbreakable-boon-related problem.

Gen spawn - This is an issue on a few specific maps and not really anywhere else. If gens are all very far from each other in real distance (accounting for fences and floor changes), this is an issue. Otherwise, meh. If you mean survivors spawning on gens, yes, problem.

Map size - problem. But it's less a problem with raw size and more a problem with the amount of fences, walkways, and diversions within the map - compare Shelter Woods, one of the biggest maps in terms of square m but with crow-flies travel from every point to every other point, to Badham, which is smaller than average but a royal goddamn pain in the ass. Size is a factor, but I think distribution of resources is the bigger one.

All of that being said? Franklins countering White Ward is stupid and I've already explained why I feel that way. Just because they're waffling on addressing the big stuff doesn't mean we have to put the small stuff on hold either.

Yeah, you're right. I really don't understand why you're so fixated on ensuring that survivors can't keep their item and I don't think I ever will.

What you are telling me, essentially, is that one build with one killer, for the purpose of trolling above winning (I will concede that playing off survivor stupidity does get kills, but your motives are too suspect for me with that 'making them mourn their item' comment for me to take this as your only concern here), is undone by the small amount of players that have a White Ward and are the type of players who would run back for their item if it's hit out of their hands instead of recognizing that they're just going to get M1ed again and skedaddle, but simultaneously not the type of player who would run back for their item before it runs out of charge, now no longer having to return for their item. You are also telling me that players don't, you know, crouch over to where their item fell after the final gen while you're busy bothering someone else and slip out the gate you're not at. Nor do they ever crouch over to their item midgame, bring it to a gate or a secluded location, and drop it again. Nor do they Dead Hard past you at the gate (because let's not pretend Dead Hard isn't in every single game, we can practically take it as survivor basekit and 3 perk slots at this rate.) You're telling me that letting White Wards perform their one function completely breaks your whole strategy and therefore it has to stay so you can keep doing item thief Hag.

Okay. Cool. You must see a lot more White Wards than I do.

White Wards are rare enough that I don't think it's too much to ask for that they work. Yeah, sure, 1 killer 4 survivors killer stuff more important blah blah blah, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that it matters to a killer that they can counter White Ward. Its benefit is purely outside the match. In and of itself, countering a White Ward doesn't help you in any way, it just lets you annoy the survivors. You have derived a strategy upon which you can get value out of annoying survivors and benefitting off predictable behavior, but this was true before the offering came into play and it's not like the strategy wouldn't work anymore; it's just that the survivor who brought a purple offering for this specific scenario is immune and therefore won't behave stupidly unless they want their item in that match, which they might well do anyway because it's evidently an important item to them. Which doesn't seem that different to me from Lightborn in concept, or Calm Spirit, or even moris; the slot lends you immunity from a very specific sort of shenanigans while otherwise providing no benefit in the match.

Franklin hag is not here to troll, it counters sabotage, flashlights (big counter to traps, also prevent flashsaves) and get rid of medkits too (annoying for hag as healing removes her pressure).

There is a youtuber named Negoose that is a very good hag and play with franklin a lot for good reasons. Even at high mmr yes, I would say high mmr survivors are even more greedy and don’t respect Hag particularly in early game they taunt a lot. They will fall and be punished for the dumbest traps near items.

What I don’t understand here, and I hope you will explain it to me is why would you want to make it easier for survivors when all they have to do is retrieve their item at any moment of the match, against any killer that is not hag that’s very easy to do. No killer is going to camp a single item the whole match that’s ridiculous, you have way enough time to come back and get it.

You are saying white wards are rare, but what are the odd you encounter a killer that uses franklin while you are using a white ward ? Even more so a killer that is not Hag ? That’s probably 1 in 200 match ? Maybe more ?

Unlike you, I don’t think survivors would play the same way if they could keep their item no matter what, in particular against Hag. There is a psychological element involved to loosing an item, like special event flashlight for exemple. Just tonight I play against 2 white wards as Hag and I could tell beforehand that they were very attached to their items the way they were playing (a flashlight and a red map). It’s supposed to be a survival horror game, loosing stuff is part of the experience. And if you really don’t want to loose it you can go retrieve it and hide in a locker all game long so you don’t get m1.

A survivor item (flashlight) completely disables a killer's power (Hag.) Killers can't do that.

A survivor perk (Calm Spirit) completely disables a killer's power (Doctor) and many perks (Infectious Fright, Deathbound, Dragon's Grip, Iron Maiden, etc.) Killers can't do that.

A survivor perk (Flashbang) completely disables a killer's power AND stuns them (Wraith.) Killers can't do that.

All white ward says is that if you die while holding an item, you won't lose it. Franklin's Demise does not prevent that effect from working, it just makes it harder to reach the correct situation to trigger it.

There's a difference between Franklins Hag and item thief Hag. Franklins Hag is just to get rid of flashlights and medkits, two items she suffers with. Item thief Hag actively traps dropped items and plays around them instead of draining them to uselessness and forgetting about them. Same build, different playstyle. She's also the only killer that can really pull off an item thief build specifically because she doesn't have to camp (or because she can camp 10 spots without being there.) Trapper can sort of do it, but he's not a quarter as effective - what makes Hag so good at it is that she can instantly reappear to slap the item out of your hand again.

What you want explained to you... the issue isn't that you can retrieve your item at the end of a Franklins match. I've already illustrated how easy that is to do, as a reason for why altering White Wards shouldn't affect your experience much. The issue is that when you die with a White Ward and the killer has Franklins, you lose your item, unless you intentionally go down early by jumping in a locker and getting yoinked. Which forces you to throw both health states of your last chase, a time differential that can easily get everyone else killed (and you can't get left on hook or camped, for that matter), and also relies on a locker being near enough to reach before getting hit once. Otherwise your item is going to get knocked out of your hands and you have no way to retrieve it before you're put on hook.

("Hide in a locker all game?" That's just asking survivors to throw the game and screw over their teammates. Give realistic advice. I'm not going to tell killers to do bones to counter CoH, so do me a favor and engage in good faith as well.)

If you can escape the match, it generally doesn't matter if you have a White Ward or not. You keep the addons too, but there's a perk that can do the same. The point of a White Ward is to keep your item when you die and Franklins prevents that from working. This happens versus all killers who do not prioritize their M2 attack at all times or do not have one - so pretty much everyone but Huntress, who I've never seen run Franklins for that reason. That is what I dislike. I don't care if losing something adds to the feel of "survival horror" (which, if you actually get any of that in DBD past the first five hours, I'm genuinely impressed); if I brought an offering to let me keep the item despite death, I should keep the item despite death. Anything else is excuses to protect a mechanic that feels more like an oversight than anything else.

Franklins is not an uncommon perk to encounter due to its reactivity. A killer is likelier to equip it if they see multiple items in the lobby, especially medkits and flashlights (toolboxes are strong but difficult to counter with Franklins due to being used ASAP and nobody cares about maps or keys.) I've had a few White Ward/Franklins incidents, and only kept the item once due to getting M2ed rather than M1ed on the last down. I'm not torn up over these incidents, I can't even remember what any of the items were, but I'm baffled as to why people defend this mechanic when it shouldn't affect them and the whole thing heavily comes off like people being opposed to survivors being allowed to have items. I have already established that this should not affect the majority of your item thief matches and that 1/200 stat you threw out there, while lower than I'd peg it, should corroborate that. If the survivor wants to use their item in the match, a White Ward that will actually work on death isn't going to change their behavior. It will only change the behavior of a survivor that won't return for the item before it's drained but does want to leave the match with it, who makes it to the end of the match, and will not notice the trap. Everything else is immaterial to your playstyle.

Look, I just don't know what to say to you at this point. We're going to have to agree to disagree. Letting survivors keep their item when they die isn't a Franklins nerf unless you run Franklins to make sure survivors can't keep their items, because I don't know how many times I've had to say this, but White Ward affects the outcome of the postgame, not the game itself. Survivors that want to use their item in game are going to keep going for it anyway. White Ward performing its function should not matter to you and I'm skeptical that you think forcing the survivor to throw the game in order to avoid an M1 hit is healthy design.

Item thief Hag isn't necessarily better? It really depends on the character of the team you're playing against. Franklins works by default because knocking the item out of their hand in the space of one chase, and hooking them afterwards, will be enough to neuter a medkit. Likely a flashlight as well, but two hits will definitely do it. You can afford not to care about what happens next, and if survivors want to retrieve their dead items repeatedly throughout the match, cool for them. Item thief Hag uses four of her ten traps to keep harassing dead items and it's a strategy that only gets value if the survivors are attached to their item and don't pick up on what you're doing. I'll trap a fresh medkit or flashlight to prevent a teammate from picking it up, but once they're drained, I don't care about what happens to the item and I've got better places I can use my traps.

Franklins is not a weak perk nor an underused perk, dude. It's the understood answer to stacked lobbies and items that counter the killer you're playing, and killers equip it reactively. If it's weak right now, it's because CoH has trumped medkits and you can't reliably counter healing anymore.

Everyone says Bbq is so great for bps.. ok, survivors have wglf. Use it if you want points. It's that simple.

Thanks Ross.

As our viewers can see, the conflict continues.

We've had several reports that Stretch Armstrong may be in the building, but these are, in fact, false.

It seems our viewers simply got confused at all the leaps in logic and whataboutism here that's really stretching said non-issue even further.

Some people blame the game, while others think it is bad design.

Most viewers, according to our DBN network poll seem to place the blame solely on things literally working as they're written on said Perk and Offering.

Of the 67% that voted this way, 80% feel that it's some bizarre sense of entitlement that said item is always theirs, regardless of whether it's in their possession.

Our DBN psychologist is taking notes on the scene as we speak, standing by to be misquoted/strawmanned.

Herman Carter here, reporting for DBN news.

As you can see above, this topic is not without extreme bias and hyperbole.

*giggles maniacally*

Remember to use your facts instead of your feelings.

*uses static blast*

One survivor revealed.