http://dbd.game/killswitch
How To Fix Nemesis
The problem with Nemesis is that using his tentacle on a healthy, non-infected Survivor is basically like telling the Survivors 'No, I don't want to win.' because it extends chases without injuring anyone; Survivors get the speed boost, they stay healthy, and now the chase is extended by an extra 30+ seconds as they get to another loop.
Nemesis has to hit them THREE times, if he wants to infect them. Or he has to hope the zombies bite someone, which, and let's be honest, is rarely going to happen.
This means Nemesis's power is yet another that favors Survivors, because of course it does. But worry not; I have 2 ways to fix it:
Way #1:
The T-Virus is supposed to be contagious. So why not make it so someone infected can spread it to other Survivors if they work on the same generator, get healed & one of the person is infected, or get unhooked while infected/unhook someone infected? Also; no one but you, the Killer, and other infected Survivors see if you're infected or not. To avoid Survivors just not grouping up.
Or
Way #2:
Again; the T-Virus is supposed to be contagious & airborne. Why not make it so Survivors slowly become infected over time? This way, if they don't cure it, Nemesis will be able to injure them at range (5 meters, or whatever his tentacle is) without giving them a get-away-free dash.
Either one of those is a good way to make Nemesis not suck.
Comments
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Or, y'know, Nemesis could get a full rework and actually be accurate and powerful?
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Just remove de contamination SB and he will be fine.
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Everything should stay, except survivors infected should lose a health state after a certain amount of time, similar to plauge. Also, zombies should target non infected survivors until everyone is infected, then behave normally.
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He is fine and quite good, there is only few things I would change:
-Fix Zombie AI, so they don't get stuck everywhere.
-Make infection to interrupt survivor's action (cleansing totem, unhooking etc.)
-make it so tentacle can hit crouching survivors through a window
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The infection should have more effect.
I never understood why it is less than plagues infection.
Maybe you should get slower in all actions over time as you are turning into a zombie when infected.
After some time you could actually become a zombie - that would be funny.
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Just reduce the contamination speed boost by 50% and give a temporary debuff to survivors who vaccinate
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I recently got Nemesis and played a few games with him, so I can now give some feedback to this topic.
At first I thought similar to you, and yes, the power at first can feel a bit tedious and cumbersome to use, but it's actually cleverly done.
The infection is important for the long game. You need to hit survivors with your tentacle whip to build up your own infection level. Once you learn how to time and aim the whip, you can hit survivors pretty reliable from some distance and become very lethal in chases. Dropped pallets become little more then short distractions and you can deal damage to survivors from quite a bit away. Once you get to infection level 3 you can dish out the hurt like a whirlwind of destruction and clever survivors will try to keep the vaccines for the endgame, so that you can't attack then with impunity.
So I feel that his power is far from weal or an "I wanna lose" button. The infection stage is the thing that keeps Nemesis power in check.
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Your opinion is a fair one, but I can't shake that I'm making the game harder for myself when I tentacle someone.
Instead of hitting someone in 20 seconds, I'm tentacling someone in 20 seconds, now extending the chase without having wounded them, chasing them for another 30 seconds, now tentacling them, which extends the chase ANOTHER 30 seconds, and NOW I've downed them.
Whereas, if I just mindlessly M1: I hit someone in 20 seconds, extend the chase 30 seconds, hit them again, and they're down.
And this happens for every Survivor: even if I'm at Tier 3, my power does not get any stronger. If someone's not infected, it will still take 3 hits to down them via tentacle, instead of 2 hits via punching.
My thought is that Nemesis' power depended on his zombies to bite people, which got scaled back to 2 utterly useless NPCs (The devs had a plan for more zombies bit the game could not handle it), and they, in normal lazy BHVR fashion, never altered his power to compensate for this change. Remember: He had an addon that made zombies spawn in the exit gates. That was CLEARLY meant for more than 2 zombies.
So now you have a Killer who's power relies on HIM hitting people to infect them more than the zombies (instead of relying on the zombies), which just extends chases by 30 seconds per chase, per Survivor. Which can add up to 4 minutes, on average, a map.
In games where gens can fly by in 5-7 minutes.
I'm sorry; his power is just utterly trash to me. He's an M1 Killer because his power actively works against him by extending chases in a game where Killers can't afford to extend chases.
BHVR need to rework him. No Killer should be punished for using their power. But since it's BHVR, and a licensed Killer (meaning any and all changes need to be approved by the IP holder); this will never happen.
Sorry, but to me, Nemesis is just an M1 Killer who's not worth the price of admission. The zombies were changed late in development and his power was never altered to take this into account.
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So you want to either steal the Plague's gimmick of spreading infection
Or Freddy's gimmick of everyone slowly going to sleep overtime (or for the OGs, the original Doc mechanic where madness built overtime without you being shocked if you were in his terror radius)
How..... original.
Counter proposal, Nemesis is already strong and a pain in the ass to go against due to him having cross map built in pressure from stupid zombies patrolling areas which is ESPECIALLY strong on indoor maps with narrow hallways
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I'd rather have a power that works over a power that's original. Who cares of Plague and Freddy have something like it; his power is trash at the moment because it gives players a free speed boost with 0 real damage. They're not even Broken when infected, so you're just adding a 3rd hit when you can down them with 2 punches.
And his zombies are trash. They get stuck on rocks and walls, and don't work 99% of the time. It's common knowledge he was supposed to have more than 2 broken trashbag-AI zombies, but the game could not handle this. So they were scaled back with 0 change made to his power.
Look at how it works; it's obvious the zombies were supposed to be the main infectors, not Nemesis himself. No Killer wants a Killer that extends chases by an extra hit, each. A hit, ight I add, that can be removed with a vaccine. There goes that tentacle you applied to a Survivor! They got a free chase extender AND removed the infection so you can do it all over again! Confetti!
So I don't get what you mean by 'already strong' when relying on his whopping 2 braindead zombies means watching 2 AI wander aimlessly on 80% of the maps and maybe sometimes, possibly, if the stars align, they walk towards a Survivor...Who walks away. Because there were supposed to be more than 2, to make dodging them difficult.
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I already mentioned the built in cross map pressure (which idk about your matches but in mine, the zombies always end up in my way on loops or near critical gens.
On top of that, Nemesis can constantly see the zombies and when zombies are chasing someone, Nemesis can see the change in the zombies walking animation which also means he has built in tracking 2nd to the Doc.
His tentacle destroys pallets AND can hit over obstacles which makes looping him very difficult
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'I already mentioned the built in cross map pressure (which idk about your matches but in mine, the zombies always end up in my way on loops or near critical gens.'
Not for me. 9 times out of 10, they stand in one place and pick their noses. Or walk into a large rock.
'On top of that, Nemesis can constantly see the zombies and when zombies are chasing someone, Nemesis can see the change in the zombies walking animation which also means he has built in tracking 2nd to the Doc'
That's when they find someone. As I've pointed out; relying on a zombie to find someone is only slightly more reliable than the Spring weather here in Massachusetts.
Hint: There's a reason our motto is 'If you don't like the weather; wait a few minutes'.
'His tentacle destroys pallets AND can hit over obstacles which makes looping him very difficult'
Oh boy! Except for the times it does not. Or the times Survivors insta-juke the pencil-thin hurtbox.
And again; Hitting someone with the tentacle accomplishes nothing except giving Survivors a free speed boost to run to the next loop. Which means I've extended my chase with 0 benefits. Oh wait; my tentacle gets ONE piddly meter longer if I extend chases or slowdown to eat zombies, which means I can extend chases from 3.2 feet further away!
Nemesis does not even get a faster tentacle attack/recovery at higher tiers. He just goes from 95% movespeed to...100% movespeed when charging it. What blazing speed! It's still better to be 115% by not using it, and hit Survivors TWICE with my fist instead of THREE TIMES with my tentacle.
His power does EVERYTHING to make him suck; it slows him down, it does not damage uninfected Survivors, it gives them an 'injured' speed boost, the recovery never changes, it's thin & hard to aim if Survivors aren't as stupid as the AI zombies, and it extends chases.
What are the up-sides to his tentacle? The garbage 5 meter (6 at T3) range? The breaking pallets/doors? Did you know it takes him 2.5 seconds to recover from breaking a pallet/door?
Guess how long it takes to break a pallet/door normally? 2.6 seconds.
That's right; he's 1/1th of a second faster than your average break...Unless you use perks to break pallets faster. Then he's just got nothing.
Also; Lunge attacks go 6 meters; the length of his T3 tentacle. Again; why would I hit with my tentacle and extend a chase, when I can just PUNCH and do a health state?
So I say again; To me, Nemesis is utter garbage and his power does everything it can to work against him. It's laughable BHVR put him in the game in such a state, and it's also clear they did it just to cash in on the RE franchise. Once they scaled back the zombies; they stopped caring about how he worked, shoved him out the door, and rolled in the cash he brought in.
He's an M1 Killer because his power has everything against it and nothing FOR it:
- It does not anti-loop
- It actually EXTENDS chases, instead of ending them
- It can't even break doors/pallets faster to any useful amount
- It has no range to speak of (Whoo, 5 to 6 whole meters! Guess what? A lunge attack goes 6 meters!)
- It's hurtbox width is about as narrow as a hummingbird's beak, so it's easy to dodge.
And yeah; I'm a bit angry. I love RE, and Nemesis fights Legion for 'Greatest disappointment in DBD'. Just a big ol' sissy-slapfight for the bottom of the pile.
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Bro, I really like your attitude and sharp wits in the other topics, but I have to ask this, because I am not entirely sure: do you actually own Nemesis and have you played him any amount of time?
When I read up about him, and during my first two games with him, I kinda thought the same and was miffed at how much he sucked. But by game 4 I was landing my tentacle strikes from way further then I would with my fists, and the whip strikes fast, once ylu execute it. 5m, is 1.25s of survivor movement if you stand still. Really, it's a ranged attack that hits fast, rather reliable and needs no reload. Its held in check by needing to hit survivors one extra time. In the entire trial!
Its Nemesis snowball: it starts a bit slow, but once it gets rolling, boi oh boi, do you have an avalanche heading for the poor survivors. Once you are at Infection 3 survivors are utterly at your mercy and you will be mowing them down left and right, with no time for then to get to a window, because your whip will get to then faster.
I am neither a Nemesis main, nor a RE fanboy, but Nemesis is super strong and oppressive once he gets the ball running, and I will defend this position.
And the zombies are just the icing on the cake. He is strong without them, and you can't rely at them at all, but they are free map pressure and every now and then, when you are not sure were to go next, you notice a zombie chasing someone. I get a lot of value out of the zombie radar every game. Not reliable, but even once or twice can easily nudge the game on your favor.
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My turn to join the fray!
I personally think that Noomsoos is really fun to play as and against, for the most part. His whip is super satisfying when you hit a survivor with it, and trying to loop him is also really fun, since he can create more 50/50 situations than most killers.
As to the points given:
I 100% agree with making his zombies more consistent. Make em stand around gens. Make em (re)spawn around survivors.
Zombies already react to noise notifications l, if I understood correctly. I haven't tested it thoroughly, but using Discordance should make a zombie walk up to those survivors.
I also agree that infecting survivors should interrupt their actions.
But I don't agree with the tentacle being able to hit crouching survivors behind a window or loop. I think this is part of the interesting side of Noomsoos.
I have given you one option you can try out for the zombies, use perks that create noise notifications.
RELYING on the zombies to find someone is indeed not the best idea, but it is a really good idea to check them from time to time, cuz you WILL see if they spotted a survivor or not. You don't even need to react to that info, just knowing a survivor was in a general area is HUGE info.
I dont agree with your argument against using the tentacle in chase. Yes, of course, if you can M1, you should M1, cuz it is faster. But the fact that you can use your whip on, over and through windows and pallets is huge. Depending on the loop, there is VERY little a survivor can do. Every loop has basically been made a 50/50. Do they keep running, risking the M1, or drop the pallet, risking a tentacle to the face. The only thing a survivor can do against a good Nemesis in this situation is stunning the killer with the pallet, or pre-dropping it.
And pre-dropping only works against Tier 1 infection. Doing it against a Tier 2 or 3 Nemesis will melt pallets.
Basically, if you use your tentacles correctly, and you actually hit them, you hit survivors much faster than using normal M1 exclusively.
Also, their are a limited amount of vaccines. Once those are used, EVERY survivor is a 2 hit, even with tentacles. That is MASSIVE pressure. It also takes time to get to a vaccine and use it, together with the information the killer gets.
Lastly, yes, the tentacle is really hard to hit in open spaces. It gives you this weird boost in the direction you're walking and I feel like it does something weird with my mouse, maybe...? But you should be using M1 already if you can. I use tentacle strike exclusively on loops and windows, where the survivor can be animation locked, which are ez hits. I have also hit multiple survivors through their Dead Hard with it, cuz for some reason the timing is off, so I hit them as their Dead Hard runs out. This is mostly luck, tho...
What I forgot to mention...:
The time needed to get your tentacle out is NOTHING. If you whip out your tentacle at around the same time a survivor drops/vaults a window or pallet, you can hit them with it before their animation has ended. So if you win the 50/50 mindgames, those are pretty eazy hits too. And these WILL add up!
Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.
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I do have him, yes.
You say it snowballs but they can shut down that snowball with the vaccine.
And the match does not last long enough to except everyone's chases by 30 seconds, each, across 4 people, PLUS rebuild that snowball if they vax themselves.
I respect everyone else's opinions on Nemesis. Maybe he's just not the Killer for me.
But I have to say; other than using hyperbole about the width of his tentacle attack; everything I said is how his power works on paper. Does it sound at all strong when it's plotted down to the numbers?
- Only 0.1 second faster breaking speed.
- His tentacle is the same length as a lunge (albeit faster, so it can hit vaults you'd miss with an M1).
- He extends chases when gen speeds are already a problem. And being Contaminated is not nearly as dangerous as being Asleep or being Infected; You're not suffering slower action speeds, or being Broken, respectively. This means a Survivor can capitalize on the extended time his 3-hit-cheses give without any more danger than just being M1'd, if they just do gens instead of using a vaccine.
- Again; his virus effect lacks the threat of Plague or Freddy, so there's no reason to vaccine up, unlike wanting to Cleanse or Wake Up due to their drawbacks. You're basically being M1-able at a slightly longer range. And that's if you can't dodge! Being Contaminated does NOTHING passively.
And look at how many of his Add-Ons boost the zombies. It's plainly clear that they were meant to play a bigger role, and nothing was re-balanced when they could not.
Most his add-ons don't even affect his tentacle attack. It REALLY feels like zombies were to play a bigger role when more than half his add-ons affect the zombies and (not counting 'gives you more infection points' add-ons) TWO perks affect Contaminating Survivors; one gives you .2 seconds more Hindered, and one gives Obliviousness for 60 seconds.
Ok; THREE: One makes you Undetectable for 15 seconds when destroying a zombie. But this can be done with a punch, too.
So, out of TWENTY perks; 2.5 (Undetectable can be used with a punch) affect the Tentacle.
And 6 affect zombies movement, respawn, or attack in some way.
The other 12 affect mutation rate gain or vaccine use in some way.
Tell me that does not show that the ZOMBIES were supposed to be the draw of his power, before they were nerfed with 0 boosts made to his Tentacle.
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I also wanted to thank you for saying you enjoy my posts, but did not want to edit it, in case it goes for review. 😁
As with everyone else; fair enough. It seems my view is indeed the odd one out. I just feel he was nerfed before he saw the light of day, when his zombies were reduced, and it feels they were central to his power, leaving him much weaker than he should have been.
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I do agree, behaviour should make the zombies more consistent. I have noticed the behaviour you described too, where they are standing somewhere utterly useless, just facing a rock.
I do like the little bit of control you have over them. You can kill them yourself, to get your power faster, or ( in my case) to get them to respawn in a more favorable area.
And as I said, they should react to Noise Notifications, so you can try different builds around that. If it actually works, you could try using Hex: Huntress' Lullaby.
But yeah, the zombies can certainly use some love. Like the options I gave in my earlier post.
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Hey there, okay here is another way to look at things.
A survivor takes two hits to go down, lets imagine that they can always heal up between hooks, so you need to hit a survivor 6 times to kill them. Nemesis tentacle makes this 7 hits, but balances this out with range. In theory the survivors team have a health pool of 24 hits that you would have to whittle which would increase to 28 with the tentacle whip. So you see, if you look at the big picture, the tentacle whip does add some extra hits, but its not like you have to chew throw three health states every time, only a single time (unless they vaccinate).
This extra hit is balanced out more then handsomely by the extra range. The thing that you forgot/missinterpreted about the whip strike is that you dont stand still while doing it. During the charge up you slow down a bit, but while holding the charge you move about as fast as a survivor. Also the cooldown is a bit faster then from an M1 attack, so if you hit those survivors relyable with your whip in a chase you will rack up quite some bonus seconds and be back in the chase. Also the whip becomes a dangerous deterrent to use easy window vaults: vaults that would be super save and ensure a survivors escape become a dangerous gambit or an outright auto hit against a Nemesis who isnt like super far behind.
You can also whip 'em over several half high loops, fences or through windows and some gaps, making them much more unsave then vs your regular M1 killer, again cutting short some chases that would be much longer if you had to manually catch up.
Lastly lets tackle the pallets. You are right that destroying a pallet and whipping a pallet takes nearly an identical amount of time, BUT (and here comes the very big but) while destroying a pallet the normal way you are locked in animation AND locked in place, while with the tentacle whip you can move at a survivors speed, look around and arent nearly as easily juked, as if you were looking down at a damn pallet. This is SO huge, you really become this unrelenting juggernaut who just walzes through pallets and breakable walls without breaking a sweat. So I can't give you exact numners, but just play with this and you should feel the difference immediately; its just a very big QoL buff while chasing survivors and you are literally eating pallets for breakfast, just falling behind the tiniest amount while you are draining the survivors ressources, turning the lush lands and survivor playgrounds of The Entity into barren wastelands of Doom and Gloom.
Being contaminated in itself is no big deal, but it adds the looming danger over their heads that now several loops and window vaults become extremely dangerous and pallers are loosing their value, fast. So, the virtual health state of the contamination has some drawbacks, but these are more then handsomely compensated with some very hefty advantages.
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