If removing a tool that is used for hate crimes that target specific communities...
Does that mean that Face-Camping is also a tool?
Watching opinions on both sides over the recent "Bubba masks" being removed. I got to thinking, most of the players hate crime targeting specific communities that occurs within this game, have one common denominator.... They all face-camp.
Understandably, this playstyle is part of the game, but I do also believe it plays a role when you factor in what goes into what these (bullying) players are using to harass individuals. I am not asking for it to be removed and I understand that the devs have stated they have acknowledged it, so I am happy about that. I simply wanted to bring light to it, because so far I feel like people are only focusing on one element of what happens when a person gets harassed in this game. It's like calling a burglar a burglar because they wore a striped shirt and a mask, but not because they broke into your home and stole your all your stuff.
Just to be clear. I am part of the LGBTQ community and having been harassed in the past, I completely sympathize with the players (victims) who have had to experience such horrifying behavior, and it sickens me that we still have to witness it today. I know that we will probably never truly get to a point where we can stomp it out completely, but I do believe that as a gaming community we have the power to be kind to each other, and love each other enough that we can make this a place where everyone can feel welcomed and not have to fear being a part of it because of who they are, where they come from or what skin color they are.
Comments
-
They do seem to be actively trying to change these things but seem to be reluctant to fully remove face camping as its a "valid strategy".
The removal of Leather Face masks seems to be just one part. Pyramid Heads cages another. And most recently the introduction of new voicelines for PinHead which seems to encourage moving from the hook after hooking (though the psychological effect of this "encouragement" is yet to be seen fully).
I'm curious if they will add voicelines for all other killers if this proves to be true.
I would not be surprised if they do put cooldowns on crouching and flashlight clicking also. Which will be very disappointing as a mistimed flashlight save can be adjusted with a quick click. Similarly, if trying to stealth around a killer it helps to be able to walk faster and then crouch instead of just being forced to only crouch.
0 -
People were offended by the mask, not by the face camping
21 -
Oh yes, because there's been a whole slew of "face camping" scenarios in real life against various groups of people. Ya know, all these people being aggressively put on meat hooks then stared at for being a specific race. Happens all the time.
/S
36 -
LOL true facts.
3 -
I am a gay asexual man (I only have romantic feelings towards men but I am not for the idea of having sex) and, yeah, I can understand the troubles people went through with people using Bubba's Claudette mask. I do not think face-camping was ever a part of the problem or a problem in its own right though -- it happens to be the thing many shitlord Leatherface players do, rather than something racially-motivated like the Claudette Mask. So while face-camping is something is an annoyance, I would not consider it a tool in the same level as the Claudette mask.
1 -
Or they slug for the full duration or they tunnel off the hook or they knock the same player down over and over while puppy guarding them or nod/hit them before leaving the hook or....
2 -
Just for reference the devs have commented they don’t like literal facecamping either since it’s boring to do and watch and be the target of. The problem is all the things they’ve experimented with internally ran into issues so they don’t have a good way to actually make facecamping not be a thing. For instance, if they stopped the timer when the killer is within a certain range of the hook then if the range is short it would make no difference (e.g. stand 4 meters away doesn’t matter much if the range is 3 meters), and if the range is too large then it becomes too easy for survivors to exploit it and make it very difficult to stop any rescues at all. And in the emblem system they penalized killers emblem points for being too close to hooks but that caused similar problems and had no impact on players who didn’t care about emblems in the first place.
There could be a good game mechanical way to get killers to specifically want to avoid facecamping but I don’t know what it is. 🤷♂️
0 -
Oh goddammit not this again why is it that it seems that when ever someone complains about camping tunneling and slugging it's always mixed with something irrelevant or it just sounds like victim blaming
3 -
They were offended by becoming a target through the actions of a racist player. That which included wearing that mask.
I mean, I am not trying to compare what happens in the game to the real-life victims who have and still deal with racism. However, even I know and I am not black that racism didn't just come in the form of words.
Yeah I am hopeful that they will change that playstyle to where these type of players will not easily abuse it.
Post edited by Rizzo on2 -
They were offended by becoming a target through the actions of a racist player. That which included wearing that mask.
No. The issue was the mask.
A black-skinned face worn by a white man.
And I won't get into any more discussions about it, because this ######### precedent should have never been created in the first place.
5 -
I mean, I do not think they care if a racist person face camps a person of color streaming. They just didn't like the drip when they did it. You can read their post about it for more "clarity." But they just had beef with the masks, plural. Not just Smartface. Yes, even the white ones. Again, I cannot really explain their "logic" on their behalf, but face camping is not perceived as racist by them, thankfully. Lol.
2 -
So, do you think that the players who became victims of harassment would still have raised an issue as targeted had they not been face camped? Even in the video put together that is being shown around you have examples where a player says “Face camp? Yup, It’s cuz I’m black”.
Those killer players utilized Bubba and an abusive playstyle to harass them. Maybe it is only really an issue with Bubba because of his exclusive design, where he can down multiple targets at the hook, but it is still a problem when you factor in what the person doing the bullying is using to harass.
I don't think face-camping is racist. All I am saying is look at all the elements which take place, because Face-camping in and of itself isn't even balanced right now. Newer survivors have no clue what to do when they don't even have the only perks that sort of deter these type of playstyles at their disposal. So, again I am not saying flat out remove it, because it isn't the mask issue, but it is objectively something that all these harassing players have in common in terms of what they are using to target the players.
0 -
I'm not sure what this post is attempting to achieve.
4 -
Trying to somehow connect face camping and the mask removal for leatherface.
0 -
I stated it pretty clearly right in the OP.
Oh, I don't have to try, you can simply listen to the players who were harassed, and what each one of those Bubbas did to make sure they felt that way.
0 -
What if you can unhook yourself in the last second if the killer is camping you constantly? How would it be?
0 -
Trailing ellipses usually imply implications.
You make a comparison to Smartface's Blackface controversy and Facecamping,
Given recent events regarding Bubba's skinned face cosmetics this seems to imply you are in favor of the removal of all Facecamping as components of it fall under Racist Harassment (Similar to Bubba losing all unlockable skinned face mask cosmetics)
But you also state later on in another comment that you do not wish to flat out remove Facecamping such as with Bubba's skinned face cosmetics.
You imply similarities yet voice desire for differences. I am unsure what your goal is.
3 -
For me (putting whatever ideas the devs have in mind to address face-camping as a playstyle) I would say the problem is really with powers that one-shot you. Because that combined with a poorly designed playstyle is just recipe for unbalance.
I never have too many issues with other killers face-camping because my team or I can at least had some way of countering it. So I would think that is something they should keep in mind.
As for your idea, I am game. They would just need to find a way the game could tell if you were actually targeted like that.
0 -
Camping simply isn't the same thing. It's a different topic. Though the mask one is one of their most stupid decisions ever.
1 -
You know what for the mask yes but this shoe sting argument to try and compare the two and remove facecamping is absolutely pathetic. At this moment in time survivors have no reason to ######### and whine about camping cause look at all the ######### they have to help not get caught right now and it's still a problem guess what it's the devs and the survivors fault.
Yes I disagree with the mask removal because it will change Jack ######### but, having to try and make an argument to remove something because of some bullshit honor code to try and make the game fun shows why there are so many people why think it's survivor biased. Me personally it's basically another argument to make DBD into baby's first pvp.
0 -
You raise a very interesting point because as you say, all the videos had tunneling and facecamping as means to harass those players, having the Leatherface mask was just the cherry on the top.
One thing Im certain is the people behaving like that wont stop because some cosmetic item has been eliminated, also while not 100% sure Im willing to bet the whole ordeal is just going to add fuel to the fire and the trolling is going to get worse, now they know they are pissing off a lot of people AND the developers, trolls crave attention and they got a metric ton of it, they got encouraged.
5 -
First, I did not make a comparison in which both are the same (for the obvious reasons) One is a mask, one is a playstyle. I specifically listed it as a "common denominator" to what goes down when someone is harassed.
Second, I never implied that I am for removing face-camping (in fact I actually said I wasn't asking for it to be removed) I said it needs to be looked, as in with a magnifying glass due to the way in which it is used.
This isn't a post about calling out "similarities" it is a post about what transpires during the harassment and how it is being enabled by the game itself.
0 -
It sure is objective....if you take away the other 5 or 6 methods (I can't be bothered to look at my own post...at least not in this topic).
No idea why all these bad faith topics are running rampant as of late, but they definitely don't do anything to better the community or validate any real issues.
2 -
The difference between trying to write-off the Smartface Blackface as "It's Lore accurate" and a Player playing Bubba and only targeting marginalized characters is that while Bubba might have been an equal-opportunist skin-flayer, He also killed indiscriminately. So targeted harassment can't be written off as easily.
1 -
Again, I never said remove. Read bro.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
This guy gets it. I am just trying to bring it up as a discussion. Hence why it was even in the form of a question, but apparently some people don't take those lightly.
I am with you, I think for me while I appreciate the sentiment from the dev's angle and (again) sympathize with the players who deal with this crap. I feel like those doing the bullying will continue to do so unless the devs actually do something more substancial about it.
There is no better time to address it than now.
1 -
Well, the OP doesn't like facecamping so they're attempting to get people on board with calling it racist/sexist/homophobic in hopes the devs will nerf it for them.
5 -
Ok so to understand this mask thing you have to understand some subtle social things going on. If a bubba is trying to be racist and just face camps with a default skin then oh well you got face camped. There isn't really anything to indicate why he may have done that unless he outright says it in end game chat which will get him banned more than likely.
Now if he wears smartface and camps a person of color? Well now due to it's association with being a digital form of "blackface" trolls now have a way to signal what they are doing without revealing their hand. The mask simultaneously allows them to signal their intent and also grant them plausible deniability. You can't ban someone for using an in game cosmetic and you can't ban someone for face camping.
0 -
When looking at Facecamping with a magnifying glass, what is it you are looking for?
0 -
You clearly didn't get the memo. It's ok though I understand sometimes reading is difficult.
Fun fact: The devs are already doing something about face camping.
I think because of the reasons you've listed where you cannot simply assume someone is doing it for those reasons...Face-camping could use some adjustments. Right now, very rarely can you actually pull someone off the hook if the Bubba is just idling at the hook. At best you might be able to trade hooks (at best). There is currently no other killer that can do that, and because of it, I think the devs have a difficult mechanic to balance.
1 -
Yes I 100% agree that the game has too many incentives to play scummy atm and Bubba's design is particularly bad in that regard.
1 -
Oh ok sure cause comparing the two and not wanting it removed make is so much different.
You are still trying to compare the two which has no connection other it's something people don't like.
Yes there is bullying but if face camping needs to be looked at because of that then tbh the whole game needs to be looked at since both sides are guilty of this in more ways than one
Let's face it no matter what it's going to stay and right now due to the tool kit survivors have, it can be justified now.
And as for the racist ######### unfortunately this removal of the mask will do nothing much like how all the other reportable stuff is still rampant.
0 -
I don't get it. Wearing a black mask was a proof of racism, but camping only the black survivor with any killer is not a sign of racism? How does that work anyway? I rarely play Claudette, but when I did it happened few times to be the only one camped to death and hit on hook while the others white survivors weren't at all. So this is ok to do?
1 -
Everytime the player say that people who camp are worthless i feel hurt because i love camping. You are one with the nature and you sleep in a tent with a sleeping bag and the only thing you havr to eat are the thing you fish. So when the player say the camper are worthless i feel hurt and hope all those player get ban because this is descrimination toward my hobby.
2 -
So, do you think that the players who became victims of harassment would still have raised an issue as targeted had they not been face camped?
Probably yes.
Racists could still choose to hard tunnel and kill only black survivors instead of facecamping them.
Facecamping is simply the easiest, most effective and annoying way of securing the kill.
0 -
At this point, whatever, as a brown man I have much bigger racism problems than the leatherface thing
2 -
What I mean is Smartface got removed because it was used by some trolls to target a minority and harass by using it while tunneling, facecamping and bad mannering on hook.
Smartface is gone, do the developers expect for those trolls to behave like human beings and stop tunneling, facecamping and bad mannering now? What are they going to do once they realize the exact same thing keeps happening without the cosmetic? If someone targets an specific minority and makes its personal crusade to make the game miserable to them its ok because they now lack a cosmetic?.
2 -
I think you need to learn how to separate real life from videogames. Comparing facecamping to home invasion has to be one of the most absurd things I've read on this forum.
1 -
I dont think literally cutting someone's face off and wearing it is all that common either bruv.
0 -
It’s not okay for that kind of behavior. Though what I’m getting at is that in regards to racism, Smartface is more about direct and immediate symbolism with historical context whereas Facecamping is more about repeated use of a feature in a targeted manner in order to showcase intent.
While the problem area for Smartface is quite literally the thing itself, the problem area for targeted harassment with Facecamping is pattern recognition to showcase social Intent, rather than purely the action itself.
You can say that Facecamping is a poor gameplay experience, and address it in that manner, but you cannot say that Facecamping automatically has racist context. You need additional information.
0 -
There could be a three click limit in a second so that way you can adjust the beam. The crouching... perhaps something in terms of line of sight???
0 -
What I mean is there is a problem with very few selected "elements" targeting a minority and making their experience ingame as miserable as possible, also they used Smartface cosmetic.
The cosmetic got removed, does the problem went away with it? are they going to do anything else or will they just "facecamping and bming on hook is part of the gameplay experience" and call it a day when the same exact thing keeps happening but with base Leatherface?.
1 -
I'm...so confused.
Okay, firstly: facecamping is not a hate crime. People usually facecamp to win, because it's a very powerful strategy right now.
Secondly, by this logic, you'd have to get rid of everything that could potentially be used like this. Teabagging, flashlight flicking, nodding - the works. The fact that you only focused on facecamping makes me think that this is more about your own frustrations with facecamping.
Thirdly...what did I just read?
5 -
Hmm, you make a good point. And thinking about it, this could be a problem that extends even deeper in the games roots as well, what if a Killer only chooses to Basic Attack a marginalized person? Or leaves a game that has a marginalized person in it, or even dodges a lobby with a marginalized person in it?
0 -
Some people will not understand the correlation of what these people are doing, to target minorities to get away with it. Mostly because they themselves haven't been victims of it.
Like, I specifically explained how I am not trying to compare the mask issue, just the action and intent behind it. Because especially on Bubba people can and will face-camp because of his horrible design behind his power and how it works when he idles at a hook. This gives them a "tool" to use because they know the person has no other option but to not struggle.
Where and when did I say it was a hate crime? Which part did you read that made you think that? I specifically explained how face-camping is being used to target groups too. I.E. It is the common denominator of what these type of players are using because Bubba is the only killer who gets away with it.
Also, the people I am talking about aren't winning. Here is where you are wrong. You call it a strategy, when a strategy would suggest that the player wants to win and play the game. None of which are present when someone face camps 1 survivor because they are only exploiting (cheesing) a bad playstyle that shouldn't even be a part of the game.
Teabagging and Flashlight clicking does not gain you any advantage towards survivor objective completion. So I don't even know why this is brought up. I know you hate that survivors "BM" you, but that isn't the same thing as face camping. Everybody knows this.
0 -
As someone who is also LGBT, I can sympathize with people who have been sent death threats, called slurs and more in end game chat. I can also acknowledge that if someone facecamps or tunnels me, they mostly did it because that's what they do, and not because I'm LGBT.
But considering the "evidence" we got posted on here about the Bubbas being "racist", was never really end game chat screenshots, was just them camping and tunneling and people assumed it was because they were a person of color, I guess BHVR does see facecamping as racist if it's towards a person that isn't white.
3 -
No, this is sophistry.
Essentially, any tool in a competitive game can be used in the manner you are describing. The issue is the intent, not the action.
I could tunnel someone because of x, I could flashlight spam them because of x, or I could teabag someone because of x. The list would go on forever, essentially. I'd say that BMing like this is actually worse, because it grants no advantage to the players (there is no reason to do it aside from being nasty).
You'd have to remove all offensive actions in this game, and even then - people would find a way.
And again, this seems like your own personal beef with facecamping, which you are trying to wrap in 'well, it's used to target certain players'.
Facecamping is a way to remove one player from the match without much counterplay, and often gain additional hits and downs as the other survivors attempt to come to their rescue.
BHVR have already stated that they are looking into ways to discourage facecamping - but it's difficult to do in a manner that won't completely break the game.
My issue is that you are somehow trying to draw a parallel between facecamping and being a bigot, which is completely absurd.
4 -
2022 has just started, but it's gonna be hard to top this 'topic.'
0 -
Sophistry? Give me a break.
You compare a flashlight click because it bothers you, to face-camping when people get 2 things out of it, a BM and an advantage towards their objective. So no, it isn't just "The Bubba camped and hit me on hook" It is also "The Bubba camped and BM'd me on hook, meanwhile the game thinks they are playing the game".
Again, if you actually read and invested into more than just implying things you would know that the reason I brought it up is because of the feedback that was received which was the entire point of why the masks were removed.
I was only bringing light to the fact that many of those cases if not all, they all had one thing in common which was that they face-camped. This was after I watched a video in trying to understand some of the players that have been victims of racist harassment and how it needs to be addressed. It isn't and shouldn't be limited to the removal of the masks.
A playstyle that people (including yourself) like to throw around as a "strat" when it isn't. Hence why it is being looked at.
I think what is absurd is that you are being cynical when all I was trying to do is be sympathetic towards the players who have had to face the racist BS.
Yeah? And I see some things still stay the same even in 2022.
0 -
Definitely.
I'm hoping they crack down on the gaslighting attempts people propose against players using certain playstyles.
Hopefully, 2022 will be a better year for all players.
0 -
You mean like flashlight clicking and people getting bent up about it? Yes. I agree.
0
