http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why are killer mains more numerous?
(Just in case, before I begin: I myself play both roles almost equally, and I'm not a "main" of any side. I usually play as whoever has the fastest queue time at the moment.)
We all have seen our fair share of these "us vs them" threads, we see them every day, but many of you might have already noticed that such threads made by killer mains are greatly prevailing. Every day you can see them complaining about toxic survivors, demanding to nerf survivors, etc, while the opposite kind of threads created by survivor mains don't appear every day, sometimes not even every week. Comments defending the killer side and attacking the survivor side gain more popularity and agreement than the opposite.
You can create, as an experiment, two threads with identical form but opposite content, one saying something about poor weak killers and toxic teabagging survivors, the other about poor weak survivors and toxic camping killers, and you will see a great difference in responses: the first thread will get an overwhelmingly greater support. It seems like killer mains constitute the majority of the community, at least judging by the forums, even if we include that humble minority of players who actually play both roles.
Why is that so? If the killer role is so hard and frustrating, why is it the most popular and represented then?
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Exactly why you said, it's the harder and more frustrating role. And while some, like myself, enjoy that, others absolutely do not. And so, fueled by this frustration, they come to the forums to rant about it. While that doesn't happen as much when playing survivor, because it is designed as the less frustrating role, where ultimately you have 3 others to blame instead of just blaming yourself.
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This seems like an attempt to make a third side.
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Being registered or active on forums is also not mandatory.
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Nailed it in one
While not EVERY thread is a complaint thread, complaint threads are far more prevalent and people interact with them way more than positive threads (not just here, that's just kind of the nature of the beast when it comes to...well...everything).
Killers have a lot more to complain about with the nature of their role and therefore are a lot more likely to be the ones to be here to express that unhappiness.
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I have a few theories for this.
My first one is that there really are a lot of killer mains out there but they feel like everything is against them, and really it is. I don't mean from a balance perspective but the game is 4v1 so if you play killer long enough you feel like the entire player base is against you because it literally is, there are 4 survivors for every 1 killer. Also to compound to this killers will see toxicity from survivors more often because survivors can feel empowered because they have 3 other teammates with them in games. It's easy to t-bag a killer when you have 3 other guys on your side. I can see killer mains just being tired and frustrated and feeling like the world is against them, they probably have an easier time to find flaws in the game and balance this way.
My other theory which isn't mutually exclusive from the other one is that killers are reliant only on themselves in games. If they mess up and survivors escape it's on them, not on any teammates. If you are completely reliant on yourself to take down 4 other players you can think that the game is really not on your side and thus talk about it more. You can have a feeling of hopelessness when you're on your own so you'll see people complain about how hopeless killer is.
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Us vs Them, and also them, and don’t forget about those guys over there.
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well said.
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I prefer survivor, but I play both roles and it seems to me that killers frequently get the short end of the stick. Seems to me they need advocacy, so I advocate for killers.
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It's 1 vs 4. Imagine if survivors were much stronger and faster than killers and you played one survivor vs four killers it would be the same. It's psychology.
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^ This.
A lot of survivors play with friends. They have each other to complain to when the match is bad.
Killer is a solitary role. They don't have another player to chat with while they play, they don't have someone else to talk to when it all goes horribly wrong. There's no social buffer for a bad match. They have to come online to find others if they want to discuss their feelings about the game.
It's also human nature to talk more about bad experiences than good experiences. As an easy example, when I talk about a movie I just watched, I have a ton to say if I thought the movie was garbage. Unless there's some deep meaningful stuff to delve into, I have less to say if I enjoyed the movie.
@Junylar "why is it the most popular and represented then?"
Going by my queue times, killer is not the more popular role. Unless I want to wait in a long queue, I usually end up playing killer at the moment, which is really weird given that we're in a Blood Rush and BP events usually have everyone switching to play killer. The game only needs one killer for every four survivors. If fewer than 1 out of 5 players wants to play killer, that's pretty bad.
Killer may be the more represented role on the forums, however, and my opinion on the reason for that is stated right above.
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I think killer mains are more numerous on the forums, not because they have more complaining to do necessarily, but because it's a role that's easier to identify with.
Spirit, Deathslinger, Hag, Nurse, these are characters with rich differences and nuances. Every killer is it's own playstyle, this is not true for survivors who are basically all carbon copies. I think even though there are less killers out there than survivors, there is going to be a greater passion for the role because of the benefits to storytelling and class fantasy that it brings.
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Look at it this way.
When one side (the minority side) of your game is making nearly all the complaint threads - what do you think that indicates?
To me it indicates that there is something about the role, whether it be mechanical, balance related or to do with the attitudes or behavior of the other side that makes that role frustrating.
I really disagree.
My best example: If I don't give someone hatch or gate, I'm going to be QQ'd at in postgame.
I've been given a 'pity kill' on exactly 2 occasions in 400 hours.
I've seen maybe 5 killers total rage DC outside of people holding the game hostage or bringing really abusive offering combos. I see a survivor rage DC or suicide maybe 1 in every 4 games.
Survivors, by and large, tend to have an attitude of entitlement that killers don't tend to. I think this stems from survivor being the 'power role' in DbD. Everyone expects to escape.
This is also partially true. The devs approach balance very differently for both sides - which sets up a situation of 'us vs them'.
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I know! Let's have people post their post-game chat messages and see if killers or survivors are more likely to be salty whether they win or lose. Let's also post examples of bm'ing and being overall toxic during the game. Then we can see if your theory about killers being saltier holds up.
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Because it is harder than survivor, so there are more complaints.
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I don't think it's necessarily harder - it definitely has a higher 'skill floor' (it took me maybe 100 hours to get to grips with the basics of killer, while survivor is very easy to pick up). The skill ceiling for both factions is pretty high.
I think it's a combination of:
- Repeated nerfs of killers/addons that literally nobody was asking for (Nemesis and Twins in 5.5 for example).
- Rapidly nerfing aspects of killers that were mildly problematic at low MMR, completely gutting them for high MMR play while moving very differently on survivor perks/addons that are even more problematic/overused.
- Overnerfs of killers to the point where they become unfun to play (Freddy, Wraith, Twins).
- Very slow/no nerfs to survivor perks that are seen in maybe 80% of games (Dead Hard is the biggie) while nerfing killer addons/perks for literally no reason besides 'these are used too often'.
- Survivor attitudes and behavior ingame (general nastiness, extremely common rage quitting).
- SWFs not having any sort of MMR adjustment, leading to a lot of one sided stomps.
- Map design being overwhelmingly survivor sided, particularly after the removal of Hawkins and the addition of Eyrie.
When you balance your game in this way, you shouldn't be surprised when one side is irritated and bad feelings develop towards players on the other side, collectively. Nobody likes a double standard.
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You also forgot 'Random Survivor buffs hidden in quality of life changes' like the 1 second (6%) wriggle speed buff in the changed wriggle mechanic.
Never happens for Killers, however. It's like the devs literally can't push an update without giving Survivors something to ensure they don't whine.
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Dead Hard validation is another.
The perk was already omnipresent in any game from intermediate MMRs and up to the extent that killers subconsciously play as if it were there - and then they 'fixed' it, which amounted to a huge buff to an already strong perk, particularly in terms of it's ability to negate certain killer powers (Twins, Demo, Hag, Trapper, Nemesis etc.).
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Or casual players are just stating the fact that the Killer role is unfun and unfair to play.
What kind of backwards toxic manipulation is "We all have seen our fair share of these "us vs them" threads, we see them every day, but many of you might have already noticed that such threads made by killer mains are greatly prevailing". You start off talking against "us vs them", and then lead into just assuming every person who has a problem with the killer role to be a killer main.
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Bingo.
Again, if one side in a game is balanced differently to the other side - then you don't get to clutch your pearls when that side becomes annoyed at the other side. Double standards tend to annoy people.
Killer complaints are more prevalent on these forums than survivor complaints. You can look at it and go 'well, killers are just whiny' - but if you apply a tiny amount of common sense, you could also go 'there is something about the killer role that makes players unhappy with the game compared to the survivor role'.
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But all of it makes it, objectively, harder than Survivor...
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I'm surprised you don't think killers are saltier considering you have been on the forums for so long, maybe it wasn't this bad before but as far as I'm aware, killers have been constantly complaining for years.
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'Harder' is, in and of itself, a subjective term when taken out of context.
I'd certainly agree that it's more difficult to 4k on killer than it is to escape as a survivor.
An interesting question is - is it more difficult to escape 50% of your games as survivor than average 2k as killer?
A good example of a Kafkatrap.
You use the term 'salty', to deliberately smear killer complaints as being unjustly whiny.
I'd prefer to parse this as: the killer role is more frustrating than the survivor role, which is compounded by BHVR applying a different balance standard to the killer role, and survivors being disproportionately nastier to killers than vice versa. This sets up the very 'us vs them' that you and yours like to complain about in turn.
Rather than trying to poke killer players, maybe walk a bit in their shoes and try to understand why they are so frustrated, particularly at present.
Could it be the bizarre nerfs to Nemesis and Twins in 5.5, with no reasoning or apparent logic behind it?
Could it be that CoH and Dead Hard, two perks that basically everyone and their mum agree are ridiculously overpowered aren't changed - and Dead Hard actually received a defacto buff not so long ago?
Could it be that certain killers (Freddy, Ghostface, Legion etc.) have been left to moulder for years, without even a small buff or adjustment that doesn't come to a wash or a nerf?
Nah, couldn't be. Killer mains just be salty.
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Killers don't have a team to complain to when things go wrong. So, naturally, they'll end up talking elsewhere.
The notion that they must be complaining more in general because of forum posts is a flawed assumption. The flip side is saying that Survivors must be saltier, because they complain endgame chat more... but there's also four times as many Survivors there.
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Because of camping, tunneling and noed. So many killers use these tactics and the sbmm finally put them against good survs, and they think they deserve 4k with trapper. And then they come here to cry
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I would also say something that people don't like to see. Survivor complaints are usually not taken seriously here even when legitimate.
I experienced it first hand years ago. Killer "mains" are prevalent here imo and survs get shut down too often so they don't bother posting because of the negative reactions.
I always post what I think no matter which side it leans to. But I notice that people agree more when my opinion suits killers.
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That one too, yes, but it was covered in OP's post so I didn't feel like I had to say it
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I agree that killers obviously are gonna vent somewhere, but just listening to people play killer now I can tell they are not having a great time. I'm not saying their more salty as an insult, It's just something I've observed from talking to other killer mains.
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Serves me right for not reading everything lol.
But I'm glad some people agree at least and not scared to say it.
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Since I play both sides most survivor complaints make my eyes roll, there's very little to complain about as survivor. Killer on the other hand is a nightmare and sometimes I dread queuing up just to do a daily.
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They also buffed BT last year and Iron will. Two perks that saw tons of play and are meta. So last year they effectively buffed 3 survivor meta perks. I won't be surprised if we see an unbreakable buff this year and maybe a reverting of the DS nerf. Imagine if they buffed Ruin, NOED, and corrupt or something this year. The complaining would be 99% of the forum.
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Killer mains are a sensitive group of individuals, I suppose. Low self esteem that survivor mains take advantage of at every turn. I feel bad for them, I genuinely do. But it is up to them to solve this problem they have.
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I love how I rarely know when you are serious or not after all the sarcastic posts you made lol.
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...
You know, I'm honestly not sure if you are serious here.
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Because the killers have more reasons to complain.
90% of survivor complaints are about camping, tunneling and NOED and are the only reasons they can complain about I think, because that three things are frustrating. I can understand it.
However killer complaints are more numerous: gen speeds, plenty of survivor sided maps, CoH, Dead Hard, SWFs, Hit Validantion, Tbagging/clickyclicky and the simple fact of being the most streesful side.
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Surely hit validation is a survivor concern? The devs use a favor the killer scenario, so it makes literally no sense that they would complain about that? Like???
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I put the hit validation in the list of common complaints of killers, not in the survivor list.
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People are usually going to come to the forums to complain about something rather than come here to say “hey everyone, just want to say I had a lot of fun playing the game today!!”
People who play the killer side have a lot of legitimate reasons to complain and they come here to vent their frustrations (not that it does much good to lead to actual changes). Survivor is easier than it’s been in a long time and there are few people (with a few notable exceptions) who complain about the survivor side.
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The difficulty and fustration inherent in the killer role is a real factor, especially over the last year or so. Throw in the dread of making just one mistake against good players dooming you, and it's a lot to handle.
As far as visibility in these forums goes, we also need to remember the timeframe of this game and the platforms.
DBD was out for like two years before being ported over to the consoles, so a lot of vetran players come from PC, and as far as I can tell most regulars here are PC as well. Now remember most killers are also from PC (reasons for that are another thread entirely) despite the consoles collectively making up the larger playerbase by far.
So the oldest players from the harder role (imo) are also the most vocal too. Makes sense to me.
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The third side is the entity
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They aren't.
Forums are a place to share ideas, discuss topics, and for games like this, vent frustrations. Killer is unbalanced the higher the MMR goes, so you're bound to see more killer players come to vent than survivors, who are 'mostly' on easy street.
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I like to play killer because it's more challenging, and more engaging. Of course that's also why it's more stressful.
People are prone to identifying with things, and the killer in DBD is a role that lends itself more to that, imo. It's more defined role with a clearer purpose than being one of four on a team. For that reason I think that even though more people play as survivor than killer, more people identify as a "killer main" than as a "survivor main".
Also, it's not rocket science as to why salty killers have greater representation on the forum; it's because killer does have more BS to deal with, and dissatisfied people are the ones who feel the need to express their feelings more strongly. People who are having a great time don't flock to message boards to tell each other what a great time they are having.
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It also depends at what time, currently we are at a more "killer frustrated" time.
I remember back then with old Legion, the forum was filled with Legion or Franks mixtape threads.
Same was about spirit or undying or many other things.
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Join us spectator mains, we poop on those cringe killers and unbased survivors equally. We thrive in custom matches, as the true God tier 3rd side.
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The next discussion about CoH being nerfed while leaving NOED untouched just shows exactly what I mean. For 1 survivor main or an unbiased person there are more than 20 pure killer mains, most of which never touched the survivor role. Why do some streamers mention the "shortage of killers" when judging by the forums 19 players out of 20 mostly or only play killer?
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Not saying this accounts for the majority, but I am of the impression some of these discussions are made purely for trolling purposes. Either for attention, likes or notoriety.
Some will be concerns raised by authentic people too. For those people, I feel there are many explanations above that have already covered this.
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Honestly I'm surprised survivors aren't burning down the forums over the CoH """"nerf""""
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The number of people posting on the forum is not an indication of the number of people that actually play that role.
Ironically, I have seen a lot of survivors complaining today. Both sides complain about equally, about the other side. Let's stop with the finger pointing.
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Because they know it was an empty gesture meant to appease Killers, not to actually nerf Survivors.
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Because people don't go to a shoe store to buy tires.
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You realize most people don't use forums unless they have something complain about, right? There's a reason you mainly see complaints about tunneling/camping, and less individual killers and perks these days. Because there's not a whole lot less to complain about, whereas killers have... quite a lot more to have to deal with.
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