New CoH vs Old CoH numbers
Hello, DBD Community! The Reaper is here to show you the numbers so you don't have to.
Self-Heals
This is more complex than some people might think due to how CoH is coded. You see, self-heals share identical coding with Self-Care, which explains why it even had the text "self-care" when it was originally released. So, you do get the 50% penalty, but it also benefits from CoH heal speed bonus to counter it.
Old: 16
Old with Mangled: 20
New: 18.29
New with Mangled: 22.5
Altruistic/Medkit heals
Much easier to calculate since there's no 50% penalty to keep track of.
Old: 8
Old with Mangled: 10
New: 9.14
New with Mangled: 11.25
Bonus
CoH + Emergency Medkit = 7.1 seconds vs the old 6.4 seconds.
CoH + Emergency + Botany = 6.2 vs 5.65
So really, not much has changed. Except stacking Medkit charges are going to be better than using an Emergency medkit for ultra-fast heals, but I'd argue that was already the case.
Interestingly, CoH is as efficient as Self-Care (discounting totem time) with blessing + healing adding up to 32 seconds. Insert obligatory "Self-Care is not a bad perk" here.
Edit: minor corrections due to Mangled weirdness
Edit 2: I originally rounded the numbers to the nearest one, but to be a little more accurate, I instead rounded to the nearest hundredth. You're welcome.
Comments
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So, basically, the nerf was BS they did in the hopes it would appease Killers that were rightly sick of how OP CoH was? 🙃
Either that, or someone at BHVR just decided '25% SOUNDS big!' without actually taking the time to crunch the numbers.
I don't know which is worse; A smokescreen to appease Killers without actually nerfing Survivors. Or not being motivated enough to actually run the numbers...
16 -
I think people are intentionally forgetting the 14 second blessing time of a totem and the amount of time to either find a totem or move to a totems area of effect (Which is probably around ~8ish Seconds with small game, much higher without small game).
New CoH - 1st Heal
- 8 Seconds to find a totem
- 22 Seconds = (8) + 14 blessing time of totem
- 40 Seconds = (22) + 18 healing time
New CoH - 2nd Heal
- 48 Seconds = (40) + 8 Seconds to Find Totem
- 66 Seconds = (48) + 18 Seconds Healing Time
- 33 Seconds = 66 / 2 Heals
New CoH - 3nd Heal (Break even point with Self Care)
- 74 Seconds = (66) + 8 Seconds to Find totem
- 92 Seconds = (74) + 18 Seconds Healing Time
- 31 Seconds = 92 / 3 Heals
As you can see. CoH isn't that great, unless you get at least 3 heals off of it before the killer breaks it. Otherwise Self-Care outperforms it.
5 -
I feel like you're intentionally ignoring the fact that snuffing a Boon is a waste of time 90% of the time, so it's guaranteed to get 3+ heals.
Also, saying CoH isn't that great is a pure lie. CoH forces Killers to finish a chase, usually wasting about 40-60 seconds, unless they want to give up the chase, letting the Survivor go free and heal up, essentially meaning the Killer wasted a huge amount of time without gaining anything.
CoH also has essentially no counters, unless you count tunneling as a counter, since snuffing doesn't do anything
23 -
I still just don't understand why the allow boons to be relit indefinitely. That is the biggest issue with them, as there is no 'high risk, high reward' for using them. Tweak all the numbers you want, but at the end of the day, when you can have boons up all match, spread across four survivors, it isn't going to mean much.
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HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OK now thats done, lets add in the 2nd survivor. how many times do you think a boon totem gets used by multiple survivors before its clensed by killer. and the 8 seconds to find a totem is irrelevant when you have the only other option being finding a survivor. but lets play your little math game. ok it takes 32 seconds with self care to heal. so thats thats 8 seconds to find a totem +14 seconds to bless so we are up to 22 seconds and 16 seconds to heal so 38 seconds that means its 6 seconds longer to bless and heal yourself. now you have given your entire team a glowing indicator of where they can go to heal themselves. so lets say another survivor does the same. now you have except they dont have any healing of any kind so now they get a free health state when they would have had to find a survivor 8 seconds and taking 2 survivors out for 16 seconds so thats 40 seconds of survivor time vs 24 seconds. now this happens ususally multiple times.
see it is only the very first placement and use of the totem that makes self care better, after tthat COH is better in every way. 1. it can be used by everyone giving a total of 18/16 perks and it heals faster than any other perk except for we will make it. but can be used over and over especially if you place it in the corner away from gens. do you know how many hits ive taken for someone being chased and then just walked over to the boon and heal up really fast and do the same?my friends and i would have 2 people healing and taking hits 1 person in chase and 1 person doing gens. literally nothing a killer could do cause if he stopped to take the boon away we would just ignite it again somewhere else.
6 -
This really illustrates how the devs don't understand what makes CoH as good as it is. They didn't understand that it was going to be a gamechanger when they introduced it despite the feedback they got and they still don't get why it's as impactful as it is.
The nerf barely does anything. Yes, it's not as fast, but it's still very fast, extremely reliable, gives every survivor several extra perks at the cost of one of sixteen perk slots, and is uncounterable save for tunneling the perk user. It's still by and far the best healing perk in the game and changes how injuries fundamentally affect a survivor team.
7 -
The really great thing? Even 'Tunneling the perk user' is not a real counter, because the Killer has almost no way to know WHO has the perk!
On top of that, all 4 could have the perk. So you tunnel 1, and the next Survivor lights up a totem.
Boons are OP, and CoH is still the most OP of OP. The devs did nothing to nerf it, and this whole change feels like slop thrown to Killers to shut them up while ensuring Survivors still have Boon: OP to use.
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I was really surprised they weren't going to add cooldowns or tokens to boon totems.
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If a survivor goes to look for another survivor, then that's a survivor throwing the game. You either get healed at a hook or you get healed at a gen. With a boon totem, you have to go to the location of the boon totem which takes time. You can't ignore that time.
CoH is a good perk but it has to be a good perk, because it's also a secondary objective. If you nerf it to much, survivors will ignore CoH and suddenly secondary objectives are gone. Look at chests, they're so bad now that no one does them.
Killers complain about gen times, but when the developers try to fix them by introducing secondary objectives, killers flip out. I guess you expect survivors to setup boon totems that do nothing.
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No, Killers are expecting secondary objectives to not make certain playsyles unusable
9 -
Yeah, you have to catch them in the act or make educated guesses. If a boon goes up and I find Adam on a gen ten seconds later, alone and with 30% progress, it wasn't him; if the first gen pops while I'm chasing the Adam and I see Elodie running away from the gen, she probably wasn't the booner either. If another boon goes up while I'm chasing Dwight - either there's several boon users on the team (in which case RIP, there is absolutely nothing you can do to keep on top of CoH) or it's the last guy. Either way, person #4 very likely has a boon. Also, always stereotype Mikaelas hard.
With the way the boon mechanic works, it almost feels like the only way to balance them is to have their effects be generally not worth running. I know that sounds terrible, and it is, but the problem is - when the effect is good and widely useful, there's almost nothing a killer can do to stop the boon effect from being in play most or all of the game, because it will reappear as soon as they leave the area or stop pressuring the survivor that has it, and snuffing it is a huge detour in the first place unless survivors place boons unintelligently. This is mostly CoH, but Shadowstep on an indoor map is brutal as well.
Until they look at the boon mechanic itself and make its counterplay more realistic or decisive, we're going to keep having problems with boon perks, and they'll either be garbage like Exponential or gamechangers like CoH.
6 -
secondary objectives should delay survivors not allow survivors to undo the work of a killer with little or no downside.
12 -
This. "Secondary objective" doesn't include putting in a frontload of 14 seconds to then streamline the game and save way more time than that afterwards through sheer efficiency and self-sufficiency.
7 -
I 100% agree and i say CoH is busted. even post nerf. I bet you tried to quote the guy i qutoed and the quote thing messed up @MandyTalk is therre something that can be done about that happening?
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Honestly, I think it's a good idea because it adds an interaction between killer and survivor that wasn't there before. And it adds a secondary objective for survivors. However, you have to realize, anything that adds a secondary objective for survivors has to somehow affect the Killer negatively or it won't be used. In this case, if the survivor plays the boon correctly, the survivors come out ahead. If the killer snuffs the totem efficiently, then the killer comes out ahead.
As an example, look at chests, another secondary objective, which is no longer used. Survivors don't get anything useful from chests that positively affect survivor game play. The time wasted opening a chest negates toolboxes, flashlights or practically worthless, keys are totally worthless and the time wasted opening a chest also negates medkits except in certain situations where they can't find a teammate to heal them. A 1 in 4 chance of getting something useful from a chest makes chests an absolutely worthless secondary objective.
2 -
To be fair, I'm pretty sure no one that requested secondary objectives for survivors ever claimed to want it as anything other than a straight nerf to survivors.
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These people won't be happy until boon perks are useless. Sorry, but it's true. It isn't as OP as people make it out to be.
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I don't know, injured and isolated survivors used to open chests for medkits pretty regularly... before CoH obsoleted the need for medkits. The odds of finding a medkit are greater than 1/4, because brown items are the most common result and that'll 1/2 of the time be a medkit.
Being able to self-heal without an available teammate is massive. It doesn't just take out the raw time that's saved compared to healing normally, it takes having to locate a teammate out of the equation, and it allows for recovery in situations where nobody is available to heal you. Medkits are the most powerful item in the game for a reason. I do agree that keys now err on the side of too useless, but people hunting for keys was always a last-ditch effort anyway.
As for 'if the killer snuffs the boon efficiently' - your earlier clause of 'if the survivor plays the boon correctly' invalidates it. Yes, I can efficiently snuff a boon that a Mikaela herp derps next to an unfinished gen (though I may have to trade off snuffing for chasing the survivors off that gen, and the time spent snuffing allows them to safely reach another loop.) There is no efficiently snuffing a boon that's been placed in the corner of the map, by a pallet and gen deadzone, or on a catwalk or detour that isn't normally traversed. Virtually the only times you can snuff a boon and come out ahead timewise is if it's on your gen patrol route or close to a hook and you run by it while you are not currently chasing anyone. If it takes you more than (14/number of survivors alive in the match) seconds to remove a boon, you've lost time.
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Survivors don't need to actively look for totems. They commonly spawn on-top of them at the start and walk into them through sheer fact that they're placed on the same tile sets that the gens sit on. There's only a few exceptions like the 2 blackwater swamp wall spawn locations.
Also, your assumption isn't really supported. 3 heals is not a lot. If a killer hooks 3 people, that is 3 people getting a COH benefit once they're unhooked (More valuable to run to boon then to take rescuers time). The fact is survivors putting down a COH get paid dividends unless they are potatoes who bless right in front of the killer or can't use their critical thinking skills when they choose a totem to bless. COH shouldn't be balanced around those latter exceptions, it should be balanced around the survivors who are making bank on it and completely eliminating the divide and conquer playstyle that this game so desperately needs to get people to shut up about tunneling.
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Only problem I see with boons that combines into coh/ss
Beside indoor maps.
Look at MacMillan or Badham.
Either in tower or badham basement you can setup a boon.
It has a pretty much safe spot where it is blessed and it provides amazing healing ground.
From killers perspective, if you go up there, It will take you ages, not to mention even breakable doors at coal tower. Before you snuff everybody will heal, survivor will scatter, and in the next minute boon will be relit.
Yeah, 1 survivor will be blessing it again, but lets be honest, it will not waste any amount of time, since scattered survivors can do gens and one will or might be lucky winner with the chase.
combine badham with shadowstep and IW and it can be really awful scenario. Not to mention that shadowstep hides even auras so information perks/myers vanity/scratched becomes useless.
And what can killer do about it? Tunnel out Mikaela
5 -
Relighting the Boons indefinitely isn't an issue for Boons in general. Shadowstep and Exponential for instance aren't powerful enough that having it be replacable after being disabled hasn't been a problem. Only Circle of Healing has been controversial, so the answer has been to tone that one down. This nerf is a step in that direction. I don't know if 75% will be enough or not, but either way tuning that healing speed parameter is the simplest direct way to balance this perk. They can set that number to anywhere from 0 to as high as they want for instance, and at 0% it does literally nothing so obviously there must be some range where the percentage is low enough that the perk isn't overpowered but still high enough that it's something survivor would want to use.
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Yeah, it would take the killer 30 seconds to break the totem yet cost the survivors no time going to that totem. Survivors just teleport to boon totems.
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I don't agree that infinite relighting isn't a problem outside of CoH. It's also an issue with Shadowstep. Shadowstep is held back because on most maps, the effect ranges from meh to awful. Might catch me off guard on Autohaven or I might still see where you ran. On Ormond or Eyrie, good luck on it doing anything at all. So the perk is typically slept on when map offerings aren't involved.
On indoor maps, though?
In Midwich or RCPD, you can cover most of the map with two boons. That's two-floor coverage on a dark map with tons of doorways and turns and smudgy floor textures to make blood that much harder to see. No scratch marks. Toss in Iron Will and I genuinely cannot chase anyone, because they will effectively disappear as soon as I break a pallet or hit them. I end up with no choice but to go back and snuff the totem, and then they put it back in the same spot for maximum coverage and I'm back to square one. Rinse and repeat. Lery's or the Game, I can see blood, but an uninjured survivor can disappear the instant they leave my sight. Same with Badham main building or Coldwind corn.
With CoH, the location isn't as important - you just need to put it somewhere where the killer won't walk by it while patrolling. Shadowstep is more of a case where it relies on being lit somewhere with high walls, but when you have the right spot, the value you can get out of it is extreme and the killer again has to find out who's doing it and tunnel them out if they want to stop it.
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What you’re describing would be a possible issue with the range of Shadowstep, not relighting it.
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If I recall correctly it got something to do with the "give survivors another objective besides doing gens" thing. They fear that things are good now, and survivors spend a good amount of time blessing and doing totems that could be spend on just popping some gens faster and if Boons could be destroyed that the perk would see less and less play. Some players also stated exactly that, something along the lines of "lol no! If boons could be destroyed this could leave me with only three perks midgame. I wouldnt play boons then!", which is quite the double standard, as even rather tame Hex perks have had this "high risk, high reward" mentality attached to themselves for years and everyone knows about it.
The other (in my view rather weak) argument is something like this: "boons are balanced arount this concept. Please stop to compare boons to hexes. Both might coincidently use totems as their vehicle, but besides the mechanics are totally different and they don't have ANYTHING similar about each other, so stop making this comparison and say that they should be destroyable". I mean, in my pov you need to be rather blind, most likely intentionally in order to honestly believe that. Boons are very clearly designed as "Hexes for survivors", yet they play at a much more forgiving and watered down rule set.
Lastly people like to say "Yeah, fine! But then let the killers having to light their Hexes up, wasting 12s for each!!!11". This mostly comes from survivor players who have no idea how tight time management for killers is. In a 1v4 the 1 person cant just AFK out for so long, this would be tandamount to handling the game to the survivors.
Right now Boons are very strong and put a lot of stress and pressure on the shoulders of the already stressed and pressured killer role in a way that just feels a bit too frustrating. And the bandaid BHVR slapped on it didn't even stop the bleeding, yet alone help the thing heal.
4 -
my biggest problem with them is not really encouraging any strategic placement on the survivor's side (not much in the killer side either in terms of counterplay) If dull totems could be destroyed, if survivors couldn't transfer it without being stomped, if booning took longer each time etc etc it'd be different. Especially with multiple survivors running them. Had an extreme example earlier where I was running COH and SS and the other three survivors all had COH. There were usually 3 totems up at once, sometimes 4, I don't think it went below 2 at any point after the first minute of the game. And none of the totem spots were good, the spirit knew where they all were because all of them got snuffed at least once, it just didn't make much of an impact.
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Well that doesn't really matter much when time is much less valuable on the survivors side since you know... there's 4 survivors vs 1 killer.
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So wait, the self heal speed works like this, right: It's 50% healing speed, but then there's a 100% speed boost added to that. So instead of 32 seconds, it takes 16 seconds.
Decreasing it down to 75% healing speed means it should now give you 50% bonus healing speed on top of the 50% healing speed normally. However, 32/1,5 = 21,33 seconds, not 18.
So it is more of a nerf than just 2 extra seconds.
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It is incorrect, it will only 2.29 seconds. CoH works like this:
50% + 100% of 50% = 0.5 + 0.5 x 1 = 1 c/s
So we have 16 charges for a full heal at 1 c/s, totaling 16 s.
After the nerf, it will work like this:
50% + 75% of 50% = 0.5 + 0.5 x 0.75 = 0.875 c/s
So, with 16 charges at 0.875 c/s, the time is 18.29 s.
CoH allows self-healing to 50% and increases all healing speeds by 100% (with the nerf it will be 75%). The nerf will not change the self-healing speed (50%), just the extra speed (100% to 75%).
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16/((1-0.5)*(1+0.75))
That's the formula.
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The nerf is funny because they did it with the hopes of saying that they nerfed CoH and all was well but every killer immediately saw that they nerfed the one thing that wasn't the issue with it. Nice try behavior.
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Really? That seems weird, since 75% of 50% is 150%. I guess it depends on what value they will actually add to the 50% healing speed of the self healing speed. I hope it would be 50%, that would be fitting to the idea that you can heal yourself at 75% the normal healing speed. But if it's just a 75% healing speed boost to the 50% self heal speed, than it would be the math used by you two. Which would really be a very minor nerf.
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Your logic is wrong, 75% of 50% is not 150% but 37.5% (0.75 x 0.5 = 0.375). A percentage of a percentage is a multiplication, not a division.
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