What is skill or a win? The Lead Game Designer knows it the best
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Guess that when you get merciless killer with jut 1 kill means you are bad.Devs actually want us to tunnel someone seems.
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That quote by Patrick is absolutely ridiculous. If I run a killer for five gens or someone else in my match runs him that long, I certainly feel like it's a win. This most definitely should be included in the algorithm that calculates one's mmr. What is wrong with this guy. BTW..LOSE THE MAN BUN PATRICK. LMAO
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Yeh. I just stumbled across Dowsey's YT channel recently and I kept thinking, if he's bashing dbd this hard why is he still playing? Then I realized, as is the case with most popular content creators, you have to serve your viewers.
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right but this is a skilled-based matchmaking system, not a win-based matchmaking system. fulfilling your goal in this video game does not require skill. if it were called a win-based matchmaking system, then this would all make sense to everyone.
people use edge cases like "Just play Bubba and use xyz perks/Just play claudette and hide all game with a key and Left Behind!" but those are extremes that aren't very convincing. they're brought up because they're replicable, so I understand why they're used in an argument, but they don't have a lot of weight when it comes to discussing how an MMR system gathers data from loads of games.
however, they are extremes of fairly common scenarios. I've recently escaped 17 games in a row, through the exit gates 16 of those times, and only a handful of those games did I actually express any real skill beyond "I can stick on a generator and put down boons." but here i am, gaining MMR. I'm not 1 out of a million either. there's a reason high mmr has watered down so much since it's been released.
you can then argue "well, that's YOUR experience after 17 escaped games as survivor, in the grand scheme that's nothing!" sure, but I'm gonna value my personal experience, because why wouldn't I. in 3.5k+ hours, i've played thousands of games where either side achieves a great end result but expressed but a sliver of real skill for the entirety of the match because it's DBD and there's a bunch of extremes that tip the balance to either side. my experience with SBMM reflects what I believe about SBMM; that it's not utilizing the right data. I'm gaining MMR in so many games for doing absolutely nothing but the bare minimum.
but whatever, this is all meaningless because none of it is actually discussed between the community and developers in any meaningful way. a QnA comes out, comments are made, people don't understand them/think they're ridiculous, and then we wait another 3 months for the same thing to happen again. this is a neverending cycle and no personal experience or collective thought from the community is going to top the value developers put into faulty statistics and the results they see, so oh well. when they have 20 years of experience that may or may not be any good, what reason do they have to throw a bone to people rambling and ranting about them being wrong despite their 20 years of experience? i'd probably feel the same exact way.
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He wasen't always like this. He is very educational, is really good at editing his video's to make them as entertaining as possible and came up with some real fun challenges. He still is all those things tbh. It's just when MMR came around he really didn't like it. And to be fair in his edge case scenario of probably being among the highest it did make his job of doing challenges a lot harder.
He's also not entirely wrong, MMR is far from perfect. Problem with tweets like that is that he's painting a target on the lead designers head and i know 100% smallminded people see that and are going to believe this lead designer is the cause of every single problem in dbd. It's just spreading negativity and it's sad to see a content creater i enjoyed for entertainment to post things like this.
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the probabilities of death spiral are astronomically low. Its like scoring 5 goals in a hotkey game on average and losing. The reverse is even less true because if the better player is dying before worse player, than is he even considered a higher MMR player at that point? as far as game is concerned, the better player is boosted and needs to be adjusted downwards and the worse player is outperforming him.
I think they could easily fix the whole 3 man escape, 1 person dies in EGC scenario by making it that one survivor player does not lose MMR if 3 people escape in the game. The killer would not gain MMR for killing one survivor in EGC and would only lose MMR for 3 other survivors escaping. it still remains consistent with one side wins, other side loses. The survivor who doesn't lose MMR is technically still gaining MMR by not losing it similar to the hatch.
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All you have to do to know this is a bad system is look at Bubba. If you get a Bubba that facecamps from first hook and gets a 2k by the end, the system will assume he is as 'skilled' as a killer that managed to kill two people over the course of the game who went through several longer, more skill-testing chases, who got more than a couple of hooks the whole game and did a whole lot more than stand still staring at the hook for the majority of the match. The two survivors that got facecamped, who literally didn't get to play the match, will get their MMR lowered for not being 'skilled' enough.
My point here is that no game is simple enough to evaluate based purely on kills and escapes. The game is far more complex than that. This current system rewards tunnelling and facecamping and gives no incentive to go beyond that and try to go for hooks on multiple people or engage in more gripping chases. It's boring. We used to use the emblem system to determine rank, which while obviously not foolproof did a far better job at evaluating how you did over the course of the match. Did you manage to hook everyone once? You go up in one of your emblems. Ended the match before the gates got powered? The system would take that into account, if you facecamped or stayed near the hook for too long you would be penalised. Participate in a lot of chases, you would get rewarded. You weren't purely evaluated based on how many people you killed or if you escaped. The emblem system took into account several different factors that could determine your 'skill' or usefulness in that match.
For survivor, with the current system if you were to hide out of the way, not do any gens, hook saves, whatever, and still got the hatch, your MMR would be unaffected. The old system would penalise you for it and you would lose pips, dropping in rank. Now obviously you would need to play like this regularly for it to have a substantial impact and lower your rank a fair bit but that's the point, if you didn't change up your playstyle your MMR would be lowered. Want to be in the high ranks? You have to actually participate in the match and do more beyond hiding in a corner or facecamping the first person you get. The current system doesn't care about this, if you still managed to escape or got a couple of kills out of facecamping then you are rewarded for it and encouraged to do more of it.
I've gone off on a bit of a ramble here but I hope what I'm saying makes sense. The old system in my eyes was better. I don't understand why it took them so long to introduce a system that is undoubtedly worse.
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You are making the mistake of hyperfocusing on skill. MMR is a matchmaking tool first, not just a skill measure system
Bubba who gets 2 or more kills by camping has to gain mmr. He needs to face survivors that can deal with a camping bubba not weaker survivors that will once again feed him kills on a silver platter.
Same thing with the survivor. If you do nothing all game and still are able to escape though the exit gates then the killer just lost a 3v1. You have to gain mmr so you start facing killers that will be able to kill you if you don't carry your weight.
If you change it so these kind of cheese tactics lower mmr then you will suddenly have a mmr bracket full of camping bubba's and teammates who don't do anything. If you are new and get stuck there you are never getting out.
It's the same in other games. Starcrafts zergrush also relativilly takes little skill. You still advanced if you win with it. Same with fighting games and projectile spamming. There are ton of these kind of noobstomper tactics that need to increase your level so you start facing players that can deal with them.
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I didn't consider it that way. Thanks for the thought out response. I still think it needs to be more in depth though if it's something the developers can do.
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I do agree that it's very simplistic now. It is true that there are cases now where you lose mmr where you were the mvp of the match
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Have the bracket of hiding survivors go lower than new survivors - when new survivor starts as long as they try they shouldn't drop down to the unfun level. The problem is these players that are dragging the rest of the team down by hiding are ruining the experience for players at all levels. They are not changing their ways because they have no reason to - if they were changing their ways it wouldn't continue to be a problem players keep complaining about. If they end up in a bracket where everyone is not doing anything they will need to start doing more than hiding to get out of it.
Camping Bubbas are doing so well thanks to these players consistently being in the lobbies at all ranks. You need all 3 survivors not being camped to focus on gens to have a chance at punishing the camping - that doesn't happen when there's one or more deciding to hide and hope for the best. If these hiding survivors get sent down to a bracket where they are stuck with eachother it increases the teams the camping Bubba faces that are able to play against camping at 5 gen - this will then force those Bubbas to make a choice between camping or doing more.
Punish the survivors that do nothing by pushing them down to play together until they learn to do more than hide. With hiding players out of the way dragging teams down and ruining games you get consistently better teams to play against camping killers. Camping killers then need to adjust playstyle because camping 5 gen is no longer viable method to win.
As far as the do nothing survivors with camping killers stuck in same level together not being able to escape through exits - isn't that the whole argument for the players not doing anything moving up? That they'll move up to killers that know how to handle them and keep killing them? Except in this case those survivors and camping killers move down while everyone else is moving up and not having their experience ruined.
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Sounds like a really far out example there buddy.
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The problem with the current version of the sbmm is that you get killers and playstyles that you enjoy so much, like facecamping bubba.
Because kills matters and he'll down someone and just camp him to death and even another or a 3rd even, so this is apparently more skillful than a killer who goes for hooks. 🤷🏼♂️
The same goes for survivor side.
I can hide the entire game and let you and 2 others do the gens etc, and then I'll just run out through the exit gates and apparently I'm more skillful than you 3 who did gens, healed, looped the killer, etc. 🤷🏼♂️
Tell me which of the 2 options from both sides do you enjoy more?
I just think they should take whatever happens in between in account to the score in the end.
These things can easily be implemented by a point system to actually judge real skill.
So when a survivor who does nothing gets extremely low points than someone who actually is active.
And same with killer who gets 4 hooks 4 kills than a killer who get 12 hooks and 4 kills.
Right now the system is just a complete joke which frustrates the majority of the playerbase.
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What about solo que who have no idea the killer is bubba? Someone gets downed fast, you go to save and insidious bubba kills you both because you lacked the comms needed
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The problem is, if it would measure the emblems, which in itself is a good idea, the system would be incredibly flawed.
Players know what scores them emblem points, so those who want to rank up would jsut do those objectives and vice versa, those who want to derank, could easily do so by sabotaging their emblems.
The only way that would work is if they reworked the emblems to count other aspects but not reveal what they are actually counting.
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Of course he knows best. That’s why anybody with a different view gets punished. And why those who defend the ones who got punished get silenced.
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This is some quality BHVR stuff. I love everything about this situation.
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In the bubba example, that is really more of a problem with him being able to win is too easy camping. Lets see what they come up with in their anti-camping mechanic, it might fix it (hopefully). Bubba sitting in the basement should be a little less rewarding that it is. It's like he is guaranteed to get 2 kills or more and so that is like a tie or better for not doing anything but sitting and camping.
Now I don't see much issue for the survivor that hides. After all, survivor should avoid being caught. I feel like if one person did nothing and only was hiding but still escaped, that really tells more about the killer playing weak. In my opinion, it really takes everyone fixated to gens against a semi-decent killer. Especially against all the slowdown perks. I've been the 4th person before and most of the time the killer slugs the 3rd one and he finds me (eventually). It's hard to hide with so many tracking perks in bright clear maps. 🙄 The killer really has the option to prevent anyone from escaping.
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Survivors do not choose to run the killer for 5 gens it is completely out of their hands if the killer decides to just tunnel them out of the game.
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