Hooks = Skills..Bubba vs Bubba example
- Bubba ends two chases all game, hooks two players who dies because of camping. Chases lasts 23 seconds and the other one 27 seconds.
- Bubba gets 8 hooks all game, chases lasted between 30 seconds to 1 minute 46 seconds. All survivors escaped.
When people say the second Bubba was more skilled, it's only because they don't like the first Bubbas playstyle. First Bubba game was also shorter since non camped survivors only did gens.
A killer should be judged on kills not hooks, destroyed pallets or gens kicked. MMR for killers should by far give most points for killing and the rest just smaller bonus points for number of hooks, downs etc.
Comments
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What about us Bubba that go on 3 minute chases and still get only 2 kills? Hmm?
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- Bubba ends two chases all game. They lasted 1 min each. He ends up with 2 hooks and 2 kills.
- Ends 8 chases. They lasted on average 30 sec. He gets 8 hooks and 0 kills.
Now what?
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Second Bubba used the wrong playstyle, just like a football coach having his team playing beautiful football but still losing.
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No, the problem is that your reasoning has a fundamental flaw.
You already assumed that a variable different from both hooks and kills (i.e. chase time) is indicative of skill.
Your reasoning then reaches faulty conclusions because it doesn't follow from your premises. Which I showed in my counterexample, where if chase time changes, then conclusions would be opposite, even with hooks and kills staying the same.
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And then should people who say hooks is skills also be proved wrong. So the only way a killer can be judged in the long run is by number of kills.
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If you think about it, then an MMR based on escapes and murders is the most correct.
Are hooks a sign of skill? No, for example, there is slugging. You have to be able to keep the survivors on the ground and win.
Chase time? No, randomness in pallets and windows decides a lot. For example, the killer is chasing a survivor and sees several pallets and a window ahead. The killer stops the chase. In this case, who has the greater skill? The killer who stopped the chase, realizing that he should not run here, or a survivor who was in a disadvantageous place for the killer. According to the game, the survivor won the chase, as the killer stopped the chase, but the killer did the right thing tactically, precluding a senseless chase.
What if a survivor covered another survivor and fell?
Is the chase more important than repairing the generator? Well, not quite))
No matter how we hate BHVR, but they did the right thing))
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Exactly! BVHR is not very good at explaining why they are right, so that is why many is upset by their comments on the matter. But they are still right. But survivors as I have said before should get equal points for every survivor that escapes, or point reduction for every death because it's a team. Otherwise it's not a bad system although as I said you could get smaller MMR points for hooks, downs, chase time (survivor) etc.
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If kills were based on skill, Yes. But theyre not. So just counting kills is the most stupid thing you could do.
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If killing that is chasing, downing, hooking etc is not skill then nothing the killer does is skill anyway. So we get back to the only thing that can matter for a killer and that is kills, even if it does not take skill to do so. Or it's like telling a forward in football that scoring goals is not important it's dribbling.
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I made a post 2 days ago that I think went unnoticed and I'd like to mention it here because it seems relevant, happy to hear other's thoughts for a healthy discussion if anyone is interested :)
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/306063/hook-and-kill-based-matchmaking/p1?new=1
TLDR if not want to read though (and to talk more in this thread as well), I believe hooks AND kills are a better measure of skill for killers than kills by themselves, simply because there is more information to be gained from hooks and kills than just kills alone, and I think a system can be built around that, not perfect but better than just kills I think!
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Killing is not skill. Hools need skill, cause you actually have to chase people several times.Actually its just Bloodlust doing your first chase. Several powers do the rest while camping. Thats not skill, as long as the game mechanics on killer side are flawed like atm. Its by far to easy to get a 2k by just abusing killer strategies and some mechanics.
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You cannot just compare the raw chasetime.
A Bubba who downs a Survivor in 20 seconds in a Deadzone is not better than the Bubba who needs 1 minute to down a Survivor on The Game.
Hooks are also not the ultimate factor to show players Skill. But you cannot have a functional MMR-System in DBD which takes into account all factors.
Map-wise alone there are so many factors - which Maps, how many Pallets spawned, which Windows spawned, which Tiles in general spawned, which direction do some tiles face (e.g. a Shack facing to the Trial-Wall on Father Campbells Chapel is not really impressive, a Shack facing INTO the Map into a Jungle Gym on the other hand...).
So it is not possible to have the perfect system.
However, overall, Hooks are a better indicator than Kills. Not a good one on their own, but better.
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You automatically tainted your argument by making the Bubba who is camping a better chaser than the one who isn't. Like, yeah, that guy's better at the game because he's better at the game. Duh?
If Bubba can down the survivors in <30s each, and he facecamps each of them to death, he'll likely get a 3k or 4k because he was too efficient for survivors to finish generators. It would be odd for him to only get a 2k playing that way. Meanwhile, a Bubba that took 30s to almost 2 minutes to catch people probably isn't even going to get 8 hooks unless the survivors were uncoordinated and very mediocre.
This isn't an even comparison.
The real problem is that Bubba can spend exactly the same amount of time chasing survivors, win the game if he camps, and lose the game if he plays normally. And the problem there is that with the time differential of the game, things like camping and tunneling are more rewarding than splitting chases, which is ostensibly what the game wants you to do for maximum fun. MMR enforces this by rewarding kills over chases, which the old emblem system did not do.
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Those examples you have given mean technically nothing without any context for the match, you've not really accounted for the variability in matches with maps, map rng, perks, and skill level for the survivors.
Was the bubba who didn't get any kills going against a swf with comms and full meta perks load outs? Wouldn't that make them skillfull for being able to hook them all twice considering what the bubbas opponents are?
When did the bubba start camping? Was it endgame so survivors just left to not give him any more kills or was it at the beginning at 5 gens?
There are too many factors to consider and basing it purely on he camped and got a 2k than how the actual chases went and the context behind then just makes your argument flawed that kills equal skill.
By that logic, a killer could be looped all match and get no hooks until the last gen is repaired and use noed to get kills and be considered skilled.
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The first playstyle is the most boring thing extrem value for standing still it has nothing to do with skill in any possible way in that case would be the pre pre nerft moris skillfull and balanced where you just needed to down a surv for mori
Its a genrall problem that bhvr loves to defen the babys from both sides the swfs who just split up and do three different gens where is still no real counter for since eraly game perks a literally a waste of perk slots like corrupt and leather presure the first is gone in 3 min the second Is where to have at least a slight hope to win against swfs who literally wait everything out and cleanse all hexes before doing anything
I guess its a pretty good job so far
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The firstvWouldn't be possible without the factor he has an inbuild one shot even on the hook and bhvr will never change that bc they defend babys on all possible ways same on the surv side with the most used perks called sprint burst and dead hard
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This is just not correct. Being able to down survivor's repeatedly (shown through hooks) shows much more skill and outplaying survivors than camping basement does in situations where they cannot reasonably be expected to go for the save.
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Unfortunately... Yeah it's true, but I will appreciate if the devs made it easier to get rank with killer, because with survivor is like, gen, save, cure and if you die you already guarantee a rank up.
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Bubba is the only one really able to do this tho. And they are very likely to address that. Similar to like them addressing Twins later this year(note, starting to rework her, she probably won't be done untill January next year unless something opens up).
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It should take hooks, chases into account including the kills IMO.
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