Prove the Need for Prove Thyself
With generator speeds being one of the most discussed topics recently and the Lunar New Year event that is currently going on I have seen a rise in the perk Prove Thyself. Do we honestly still need a perk like this in the current game? Honestly, with the way gen speeds are currently I don't think so but would love to see arguments for and against it.
Comments
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that’s a lot of proof
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😊.
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I think as long as Ruin and Tinkerer are as they are, Prove Thyself is fine. If those were ever nerfed or reworked again, then PT could be looked at as well.
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Honestly don't think anything is wrong with Ruin and Tinkerer as currently constructed since Ruin is useless on its own in most cases and Tinkerer seems to only be decent if the killer has map mobility. Honestly I wish that they address gen regression as a whole before any of these perks to be honest.
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The fact there's a perk to make the least safe thing Survivors can do as efficient as the safest thing is all sorts of backwards.
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Its become meta perk for sure. Almost every match has 1 or 2 prove thyselfs. I think that perk needs a nerf. Gens fly way too fast with that and all i see is at least 2 people on same gen all the time.
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Theres no reason for prove to exist in its current state.
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As long as the bloodpoint gain stays, change PT as much as you want
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It is just one of those perks for solo queue, funny enough. It is wasted in swf where they could be way more efficient.
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You’re probably seeing a rise in PT due to the shift to the new meta: Scourged Hook & Dead Man’s Switch. If the killer has Pop Goes the Weasel on top of that, Prove Thyself only delays the inevitable.
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Extra blood points. That's the only reason why I run it, anyway.
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Generally it is better for survivors to split up and don't stay together. So a perk which rewards the opposite seems reasonable to me.
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Most people run Prove Thyself because of the increased amount of BPs you get. Buff the BPs you get for repairing Generators (seriously, 1250 for a full Gen is really outdated considering that I can get almost the same amount by hitting 4 Great Skill Checks), and you will see less Prove Thyself.
And personally, two Survivors with Prove Thyself on one Gen is still better than two Survivors without Prove Thyself on two Gens...
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I'm pretty sure this has been meta since god knows long.
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Obnoxious gen slowdown builds. Prove thyself helps.
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With the Pain Resonance, Dead Mans Switch, Ruin meta you have to power through your gens fast to get it done. It's absolutely need for such a perk right now. Especially in solo q.
4K with 5 or 4 gens remaining happens to me almost every day now.
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With the amount of gen counter perks killers have I’d say this one is fair.
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With the amount of gen slowdowns being stacked, Prove Thyself can be a welcomed sight at times!
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I know that even while using PT it's still less efficient and technically worse to tag team gens rather than splitting up, but it just... I don't know, it feels cheap and frustrating to deal with. I really dislike the perk and would love the main effect changed (and the blood point bonus kept).
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Putting the burden of proof on the supposed guilty side is a lazy strategy to instill bad faith in a discourse. If you really think PT is impactful then share your experience through collected data or other evidence you managed to acquire. Do not just point fingers and delegate the responsibility of a counter-argument you didn't bother to elaborate on.
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Maybe it's a little too busted, but the existence of PT is fine
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It's a classic DbD problem. "As long as X thing exists, then X thing has to exist." Prove is a good way to get around something like the Pain Resonance/PGTW combo. But if the killer doesn't have a strong gen regression/slowdown build, then Prove can seem like overkill.
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prove thyself is actually a great example of a good healthy balanced perk and idk how you can be complaining about this when built to last makes gens much more faster than prove thyself lol
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Good point that it is probably due to the meta. But if they address gen speeds seriously instead of just making more gen regression/gen blocking perks then more fun builds could be utilized.
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Well this is an interesting response to a simple question of whether or not we need Prove Thyself in the game currently regarding gen speeds. My experience with it is that I would rather split up on gens instead of having two or three people hovering around one generator as it is more efficient and splits the killer's attention.
Also regarding "putting the burden of proof on the supposed guilty side is a lazy strategy to instill bad faith in discourse" does my question honestly seem that way? What guilty party? I am not shaming anyone for using the perk and had a simple opinion that with gen speeds they way they currently are that if base regression was addressed then maybe we would get more unique perks instead of the base gen regression/gen blocking perks we seem to get with each new Killer announced. Would be surprised if the new Ringu chapter didn't come with some type of gen blocking/gen regression perk since it seems like they are currently in that type of development cycle. Honestly perks that effect gen speeds or regression I believe shouldn't be necessary but I understand why they are currently used on both sides.
My apologies for whatever I said in the original post that caught your ire, just simply wanted to know people's opinions on this perk and why they like or dislike it.
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Fair enough.
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Some good points made in here. For and against.
I understand it being used to combat Scourge Hook & also it is a benefit to solo survivors. Outside of that & used by SWF, yes it is OP against all but elite killers or poor survivor play.
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Exactly. Honestly I just wish for a game state where base regression actually meant something and then we could get more interesting perks for both sides and have more chases, which is the most fun.
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Yeah, I think base gen regression should be increased and ruin value should be lowered to adjust accordingly. It takes a whole minute to regress what a single survivor does in 15 seconds, reason why kicking a gen is not even worthy most of the time unless you have some perk related to it. However, the devs have refused to ever increase the regression for years, so...
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For Thanatophobia and Dying Light and Pinhead's Scourge Hook perk (I don't remember what it's called) on top of Ruin, Pop and Pain Resonance... I'd say yea
But without those perks then no
But I can see why it's there.... For when the are multiple Survivors on a Gen at the same time they do need a boost seeing how Survivors are at a disadvantage in terms of charges applied per second
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Aside from the bp bonus, I find the greatest impact of Prove Thyself is late game to break up a 3-gen. Against fast killers and Doc it is often the only way once a teammate or two is dead.
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I see a lot of people saying that Prove Thyself has to be there to counter the slowdown meta, but the slowdown meta is there because of how gens are anyway. Prove Thyself's frequency of use started increasing long before Scourge Hook was added to the game, and I was already seeing it quite frequently before Pinhead was released. Gens are so fast normally you don't really need toolboxes or perks that increase the speed to complete the gens.
You can argue that efficient survivors splitting in different gens is faster, but the thing is, they don't even need to split to gen rush with PT. There are also multiple situations where staying on the same gen with another survivor is better than splitting in two: when you find a gen with someone working on and would waste time running around until getting to another, when there are only 3 gens left and you need to complete one as fast as possible, when a gen is almost completed and the killer is near, when you make the mistake of letting the last 3 gens close to each other... and you can also prevent the 3 gen situation quite easily with this perk: the killer is protecting one side of the map more than the other? Gather on a single gen from that side with Prove Thyself and complete it before the killer can even walk to it, EZ PZ. Now it's nearly impossible for the killer to win because there are two gens on each side of a very large map. You might complete less gens than an all-split party would at the same time, but making sure a specific gen gets completed matters A LOT.
The gen speed are already survivor's greatest strenght. It doesn't need such a big perk increase. Co-op fixing efficiency was nerfed two times in the past because of how fast the gens used to be with multiple survivors... but Prove Thyself got buffed in adjustment both times. Because of that, survivors with Prove Thyself still repair as if the nerf never happened (there is a difference of very few seconds, almost non-existant). The only argument the devs used for not nerfing PT when Ruin was reworked was that it wasn't picked frequently. Well, now the perk has more value due to the buffs/adjustments and the pick-rate is certainly higher.
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I am sorry if I came out aggressively. I will address the points in your second paragraph and give you my personal opinion on why I think PT gets more credit for what it should. I will change Guilty Side to Other Side as my first post was unintentionally too focused on one application of the Bad Faith discourse.
Bad Faith has a formal yet broad definition that I will not address here, but one known technique for its application in general discourse is to set the arguments and put the burden of proof on the other side even when, sometimes, the proof of the negative statement is unfeasible. That tactic is unfortunately used by many denialists to lend credibility to their claims while tricking others into a lose-lose situation of finding an improbable counter-example or being handed an impossible task. An example is Black Swan Paradox, when centuries ago in Europe black swans were not believed to exist as they were not native to the region. The argument stated that "All swans seen so far are white, therefore all swans that exist are white", a clear extrapolation. Disproving that belief by counter-example would require someone to discover a new Continent and bring a bird from Australia.
In a similar fashion, by stating PT is not needed and inquiring proof from the others you're handing them the impossible task while not providing a setting stage or clear goal. Is a compilation of win rates of 30 games with and without the perk enough? Perk popularity versus outcome? Video evidence of one match in which the perk made a difference? What I personally observed in this kind of discussion is that Stats released by the devs are often discredited by the members of the community if they do not fit their narrative and personal experience, especially when reinforced by the Negativity Bias.
Now if you want to know what I think of PT, I'll be using the stats from https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Prove_Thyself and https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Repair_Time_Calculation and keep in mind that PT doesn't stack.
PT is niche and overrated.
The most infuriating aspect of playing against PT is seeing a gen pop up roughly 25(4 men)-30(3-men) after the beginning of the match. That has a psychological impact on the killer, again Negativity Bias, but is strategically bad for the survivors. Even with PT, they would've made more progress and impact working on different gens at the start of the trial working at 4c/s instead of 0.8 or 0.91c/s. The scenario where PT is indeed invaluable is two survivors collaborating to break a strong 3-gen, assuming the survivor with PT is not the one being chased. In that situation, the perk can cut at most 6 seconds from the repair time (47.06-40.92) and, while each second in that situation is critical, reaching a 3 gen is not a merit of a killer instead more fault of survivors, exceptions are given by the map layout (Azarov's Resting Place, Suffocation Pit) where I've seen 5 gens spawned on one side, but those are games lost to RNG.
When you look at team efficiency, an exhaustion or second chance perk that granted 6 more seconds in a chase is giving 6 more seconds to each of your team members, up to 18 seconds of teamwork. Those perks are also popular because they are in general selfish, and most of the population of this game plays SQ, not relying on their team. SWFs make the best use of it by having dedicated gen-jockeys and other team members more suited with experience and perks for Chase.
In summary, PT requires coordination, stacks suboptimally, its best use case is when the killer ignores you, and the scenarios where it can make a difference can generally be avoided by breaking 3 gens before they even happen.
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As long as ruin/undying, tinkerer, scourge pain resonance, dead man's switch etc are around then Prove Thyself is fine.
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I'm fine with Prove Thyself being removed if Ruin, Corrupt Intervention, Pop-Goes-the-Weasel and other gen slowdown perks are removed.
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Very interesting take I didn't think of it in that way honestly. Hopefully in the next Developer Q&A we can maybe have them address something for base regression of generators or something that will make it more impactful. Along with changes to the current regression/blocking and speed perks for gens.
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