The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer.

May be this sounds stupid, but I think Killer basekit should be weak, lack of manything, but their addon should be cheaper and powerful. That would make addon makes a huge change in their power, but they still remain weak in a certain aspect to play around.

For example: Trapper can carry 1 trap.

• But Yellow bag increase his inventory to 4.
• Green secondary coil (+50% disarm time) should be Brown.
• Honing stone should be Green.
• Iri addon should be Purple.
• And Red addon are a combination of little of everything (carry 2 traps, + 10% disarm time ect...)

I feel the problems of addon Killers have is too much pointless addon and give too little impact to their power, which takes an addon slot. If you know the old Trapper addon, you would know it.

• Brown coil (+10%)
• Yellow coil (+33%)
• Green coil (+50%)
• Purple coil (+66%)

I disagree- you'd also need to add in perks like Monitor and Abuse before you'd have his kit, which would put you up past the amount of perks you can bring in a match.

I do disagree with the rest, though, I'm not just being pedantic- evaluating a killer solely on their base kit before addons and perks is a little misleading anyway, but the weakest basekit killer is Clown. Even factoring in (basic, not busted/iridescent/etc) addons, the weakest is still Clown, and Myers is further up than people give him credit for.

He does have a slow start, but the crucial misunderstanding is that when Tier 3 drains, he is not a basic M1 killer. He's a basic M1 killer with a smaller terror radius, which is a bigger deal than a lot of people realise- especially if you're running something like Dead Rabbit. While it still isn't much, it's stealth that he gets without needing to bring anything. You don't run any killer without bringing perks and addons, so Myers can either lean even harder into his stealth and instadowns, or run tracking and slowdown to cover his bases; he's very versatile and simply capable of far more than a killer like Clown, Legion, or even the average Trapper.

That being said, he definitely needs some help- it's just that his core design is still fundamentally sound. He doesn't need a rework, just some QoL buffs.

Both of these are so painfully wrong that it hurts.

Myers is better than Ghostface ever was, and Ghostface has far more problems than cooldowns.

Ghostface is very weak. Period, and he doesn't even have any addons to make him any stronger. I thought we were done with the belief of "Ghostface is an upgraded version of Myers." a year ago. His weakness is that he doesn't do anything with his power.

Legion is very weak. Period. Even with their best addon combination, which is Frank's Mix Tape and Stab Wounds Study, they are still awful. They're even worse now, since Circle of Healing doesn't even allow them to keep people injured for what is essentially permanent Exposed.

Myers is pretty weak without addons, and he becomes far better when running certain addons. Still not great, but far better than anything that the other two can do.

Myers gets more benefit from Perks/Add-ons than most other Killers. He has many, many different gameplay styles from memes to reasonably strong (not top tier, but not trash tier either) depending on his loadout and the skill of the player. His snowball ability is pretty fierce, especially if Survivors are overly altruistic.

Ghostface has a lot of built-in limitations, and quite frankly, he's easy AF to reveal unless he's got specific add-ons. The fact you can reveal him from downed, on the hook, and any number of situations where you should not be able to relegates him to the bottom of the pack. His power might be never-ending, but you can remove it from him with a couple seconds of effort.

Lower Terror is not that meaningful vs better players.SWF can easily call out his position and run miles before your even remotely near them. The faster vaulting is almost meaningless in tier 2 and is not significant enough of a boost in tier 3 because your still forced to play around windows and make reads. The tier 1->tier 2->tier 3 is large time sink where myer is not hitting survivors, therefore not downing survivors, thus its counter-acting his instant downs which are suppose to give him greater time efficiency in the chase. Tier 3 is suppose to be myer's strongest suit yet you can counter his entire tier 3 by not healing and it ends up being that your safer not healing than healing because of dead hard as a perk for survivor. The slightly longer lunge distance is barely noticeable when it comes to changing strong loops into unsafe loops. The safe pallet loops are just as strong against him as they are on every other killer.

A big telltale that his power is lacking in power is how he needs perks to actually unlock killer power. Monitor&Abuse pushes in terror radius to 8 meters so now he finally gets stealth. Alternative, you can use dead rabbit to lower his terror radius for what other killers like wraith and ghostface get automatically for needing a perk. The same be can said about his window vaulting where you need bamboozle to not need to make reads at windows in tier 3 and make tier 2 vaulting relevant. Due to time investment needed to get to tier 3, you need get 2 or more hits to counter-act your time investment of stalking to make tier 3 more relevant than what you could do by not going tier 3. This is why infectious fright is perk that gets selected on him because it counter-acts some of bad time investment from stalking.

As you can see, he is pigeon-locked into perks to either make his tier 3 bonus or tier 2 terror radius bonus semi-relevant(vs solo) to have effective power. As OP states, his power is so simple that you can make perks out of his abilities and have shape's kit on every killer.

Its interesting to see that other people are coming same conclusion as I did many years ago where i said he was weakest killer. Myers, Clown, Legion and Ghostface are all pretty close i'd say so you can make a case for any one of those killers powers being least impactful killer powers. I wonder if they'll keep weakening pinky finger clown so clown can now also be completely add-onless.

Those are all accurate reasons why he's not that strong, but they don't translate to him being the worst. Basekit stealth may be less useful, but combined with his basekit instadowns he'll always be put above other weak killers like Clown (whose only utility is to shut down certain loops if and only if the pallet isn't predropped) and Legion (who do have a lot of utility but don't do any of them particularly well).

But I do strongly disagree with one thing- he's not pigeonholed into perks at all, he's actually quite versatile. You can lean into the things he's already good at, as said above, or you can bring things that cover some gaps in his kit, or you can bring fun meme builds that range in strength...

He's certainly objectively very weak if we're putting the artificial restriction of no addons and no perks on him, but even discounting kinda busted addons like Tombstone Piece, once you evaluate him with a full build he's not the weakest by a long shot. Frankly, even without a build at all he's still better than Clown and Legion solely because he has better snowball potential.

Not leaning into his niche strengths makes him have a non-impactful power. I think if you can snowball with him, you can snowball with any killer vs that same team because myer's ability to snowball comes solely on off m1 gameplay. Given the pallet looping strength and time constraint on killers(generator efficiency), I don't think his snowball is really anything more than survivors playing poorly. I know this is going to sound alien, but I honestly think that a vast majority of the maps, an m1 killer like him can be looped for 4-5 generators.

I think that's largely the main reason why his add-ons are the way they are. When your power is as irrelevant as what he has base-kit, your only way to fix it is to jack-up the rewards for stalking to the moon. That is why he has Tombstone piece, a add-on that completely bypasses all 3 hook states and instantly deletes a survivor from the match and tuft of hair, an add-on that gives unlimited instant down capacity(permanent devour hope 3 stack). J.Myers memorial is real winner add-on that makes him not the worst killer in the game. it fixes his time inefficiencies of stalking and makes all other impactful add-ons(hair bow, tombstone piece and infinity ev3) usable. Clown's pinky finger is sorta same deal for him but he is not topic of interest in thread.

I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all", which would be incredibly strange to do because the alternative is an insane hypothetical that would never bear out in a real match - his snowball comes from capitalising on the first down that you can get, which can happen pretty easily if you 99 his Tier 3 and wait until you're right on someone.

And I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement that it kinda ceases to have any meaning. IF he has no addons, IF he has no perks, IF you're going against a good 4-man, IF survivors don't make mistakes... any one of those hypotheticals is a pretty big if to put on this discussion, and all of them at once leaves you with a result that is at best a trivia fun fact.

Regardless... as previously established, Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals (save for the last one) in play. He has an instadown and it's not one survivors can consistently avoid, that automatically gives him an edge over the actual bottom-of-the-barrel killers in the roster. Tack onto that his stealth and the fact that nobody is going to run him perkless and addonless outside of challenges, and he really shapes up, pun fully intended.

Uncounterable downs in about a minute seems a lot better than taking years for a single down.

It is the best thing they can do, but they're still weak with this.

I agree. Myers is in a pretty bad spot. He has poor perk synergy with just about everything and his kit brings next to no utility.

You have to bring Monitor and Abuse to make him an actual stealth killer with any lethality. Perma tier 1 is a complete joke if the survivors are any good. So he's a stealth killer who has to dedicate a perk slot to viable stealth.

He has a large time investment to reach tier 3. And it's basically a Haunted Grounds window with increased vault speed and a slight speed increase. Again, his success here is predicated on the players misplaying. He still shouldn't be getting many hits in tier 3 with a 32m TR unless players are out of position.

one minute is an eternity in dbd.

I'll take my duration addons and just use m1 killer gameplay to get downs, thank you very much.

I mean, you'll be taking longer than one minute usually as an M1 Killer if the Survivors aren't drooling out the side of their head.

I agree he needs a buff. They need to look at a very critical ability he has in the original Halloween that for whatever reason is not part of his kit. The ability to drive a car. #CarForMyers

"I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all"

I think this is a bit of hyperbole. All can down survivors eventually as there is not unlimited amount of safe pallets, but it is about how long it takes to get downs. he has natural slow early game so saying he can snowball on first down sounds strange given that his early game is of the level killers like Trapper and Oni.

"Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals"

Explain how he is not an m1 killer at loops. Just like clown, you can drop pallets like candy against him and he is largely forced to break safe pallets on the map. With bamboozle and tier 3, he can vault windows as fast as survivor which sounds like advantage but because the risk vs reward for vaulting windows is not there for survivor, there is not a point in using windows against tier 3 bamboozle myers. as his reach is slightly bigger but not big enough to make pallets unsafe, it makes survivors play safer around them which is not good for you as the killer as you have little answer to dropped safe pallets. The instant-down is possible to consistently avoid at loops because it relies on survivor mistakes at pallet loops to be successful. That is like definition of an m1 killer.

"I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement"

I think no perks is not good measurement as once perks are unlocked, all killers can use them. Add-on can also be used semi-consistently but only after you have played the game enough to go past the BP grind. Going against strong survivors is not exactly uncommon if you are good at the game and its probably the only comparison that makes any sense when comparing killer strengths. I am not sure how to put it, but against new players and average survivors, every killer is probably S-tier as all of them win equally if your better than they are at survivor.

I guess if you define an M1 killer as just not having a ranged attack, sure, but the fact that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time. That's what separates him from the M1 killers like Trapper and Clown. Additionally, with the 99ing of Tier 3, a survivor very well may not be at a loop when you get that instadown, making this kinda moot.

There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference, because sometimes a survivor doesn't make any mistakes but you read them correctly so you still get the hit.

I also didn't say strong survivors, I said "strong 4-man" and "survivors who don't make mistakes", the former of which is much less common than some people would claim it to be and the latter of which is impossible. Yes, against strong survivors in general he does suffer, nobody's arguing that Myers is S tier, but the point is that he can still get more done more consistently than some other killers on the roster, making him not the weakest.

Here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better.

Literally all of his other add-ons are better than these two.

I'm pretty sure reaching Bloodlust III is faster than downing with Frank's Mixtape.

I wouldn't call Legion an M1 killer, no. This is getting a little off topic, though, my argument hardly hinged on the idea that Myers isn't an M1 killer, it was just a side point. Hell, call it whatever you want- the point is that he's not powerless and can circumvent the need to hit twice through looping, whatever you'd call that is fine by me.

Alright, fair enough! I will yield that Myers is an M1 killer. This really changes very little about the actual point, being that he's stronger than people give him credit for and that there are at least two killers weaker than him, but you've definitely proven that much.

I also didn't conclude that Nurse and Myers are the same, I concluded that Bubba and Myers are the same, you selectively cut out the part of my message where I made that clear: both have to loop but neither have to rely on basic attacks to secure their downs since they both have an instadown capacity. Bubba is better than Myers, for the record, because Bubba's instadown is more consistently available, but the principle of not having to hit every survivor twice to get a down remains the same.