The Shape is probably has the weakest basekit of any killer.
I wanted to start by saying that I'm talking about the base kit, I know he has some crazy addons that make him much stronger, or at least that change his playstyle a lot, but his base kit is pretty lacking.
1. He can essentially run out of power. You can access tier 3 two or three times in a match, and after that he's a powerless killer, in longer matches playing with him is agonizing.
2. Good survivors know how to play safe enough to not be one-shot down. And playing safe knowing that in the near future the killer will not be such a threat is very attractive.
3. With Undying + haunted ground, fire up and coup the Grace you basically have the Shape's kit on any other killer. It's so simple that his kit can be replicated with perks, he urgently needs an update.
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I agree, he is def super low tier without add-ons.
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The Pig is definitely worse. Tier 3 is way better than a reverse bear trap.
If they can avoid instant downs, they can avoid basic m1. And the dash is even worse than that.
I mean... Not really? But even if that were true, the fact that you could run real peks on him is a boon.
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Have you guys ever done a empty loadout run with every killer. I did and by far myers was the hardest. No perks no addons
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May be this sounds stupid, but I think Killer basekit should be weak, lack of manything, but their addon should be cheaper and powerful. That would make addon makes a huge change in their power, but they still remain weak in a certain aspect to play around.
For example: Trapper can carry 1 trap.
- But Yellow bag increase his inventory to 4.
- Green secondary coil (+50% disarm time) should be Brown.
- Honing stone should be Green.
- Iri addon should be Purple.
- And Red addon are a combination of little of everything (carry 2 traps, + 10% disarm time ect...)
I feel the problems of addon Killers have is too much pointless addon and give too little impact to their power, which takes an addon slot. If you know the old Trapper addon, you would know it.
- Brown coil (+10%)
- Yellow coil (+33%)
- Green coil (+50%)
- Purple coil (+66%)
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I disagree, her dash can be useful on some tiles, obviously not many, but I've already got hits because of it. And reverse Bear traps is a ok slowdown , they fulfill their role. Pig's anti-loop is weak but consistent, myers' is average and inconsistent, and he has a horrible early game and no build in slowdown.
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I disagree- you'd also need to add in perks like Monitor and Abuse before you'd have his kit, which would put you up past the amount of perks you can bring in a match.
I do disagree with the rest, though, I'm not just being pedantic- evaluating a killer solely on their base kit before addons and perks is a little misleading anyway, but the weakest basekit killer is Clown. Even factoring in (basic, not busted/iridescent/etc) addons, the weakest is still Clown, and Myers is further up than people give him credit for.
He does have a slow start, but the crucial misunderstanding is that when Tier 3 drains, he is not a basic M1 killer. He's a basic M1 killer with a smaller terror radius, which is a bigger deal than a lot of people realise- especially if you're running something like Dead Rabbit. While it still isn't much, it's stealth that he gets without needing to bring anything. You don't run any killer without bringing perks and addons, so Myers can either lean even harder into his stealth and instadowns, or run tracking and slowdown to cover his bases; he's very versatile and simply capable of far more than a killer like Clown, Legion, or even the average Trapper.
That being said, he definitely needs some help- it's just that his core design is still fundamentally sound. He doesn't need a rework, just some QoL buffs.
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The weakest Killer, just going off of basekit, is Ghostface or Legion. Both are near worthless.
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I present to you, Legion.
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I have multiple posts on here begging the devs to buff Myers base kit. They never touch him for some reason and it's BS!
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ghostface is literally an improved version of myers. stealth on command, power does not end, short stature for a stealth killer etc etc
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The only weakness that Ghostface has with his basekit is the cooldown, and even then it's better now than it once was. Addons do help a lot though.
I agree that Legion is very weak without addons, though.
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Both of these are so painfully wrong that it hurts.
Myers is better than Ghostface ever was, and Ghostface has far more problems than cooldowns.
Ghostface is very weak. Period, and he doesn't even have any addons to make him any stronger. I thought we were done with the belief of "Ghostface is an upgraded version of Myers." a year ago. His weakness is that he doesn't do anything with his power.
Legion is very weak. Period. Even with their best addon combination, which is Frank's Mix Tape and Stab Wounds Study, they are still awful. They're even worse now, since Circle of Healing doesn't even allow them to keep people injured for what is essentially permanent Exposed.
Myers is pretty weak without addons, and he becomes far better when running certain addons. Still not great, but far better than anything that the other two can do.
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I think Trapper is the weakest killer if you don't use good add-ons and even with them he is weak compare to all others.
Mayers can at least one shot few people per game, SWF groups or good teams will make Trapper M1 killer the whole game.
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Myers gets more benefit from Perks/Add-ons than most other Killers. He has many, many different gameplay styles from memes to reasonably strong (not top tier, but not trash tier either) depending on his loadout and the skill of the player. His snowball ability is pretty fierce, especially if Survivors are overly altruistic.
Ghostface has a lot of built-in limitations, and quite frankly, he's easy AF to reveal unless he's got specific add-ons. The fact you can reveal him from downed, on the hook, and any number of situations where you should not be able to relegates him to the bottom of the pack. His power might be never-ending, but you can remove it from him with a couple seconds of effort.
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I agree.
People always say how weak Legion is when survivors don't heal against them but atleast Legion still has stall and information when that happens
Stay injured vs myers and their entire power becomes having monitor basekit. Which can be nice on some maps but is worthless on others by how open they are. At the cost of being a weaker m1 killer at the most crucial point in the match.
Imo Legion is better then Myers in pretty much every way barring some busted addons myers has
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Lower Terror is not that meaningful vs better players.SWF can easily call out his position and run miles before your even remotely near them. The faster vaulting is almost meaningless in tier 2 and is not significant enough of a boost in tier 3 because your still forced to play around windows and make reads. The tier 1->tier 2->tier 3 is large time sink where myer is not hitting survivors, therefore not downing survivors, thus its counter-acting his instant downs which are suppose to give him greater time efficiency in the chase. Tier 3 is suppose to be myer's strongest suit yet you can counter his entire tier 3 by not healing and it ends up being that your safer not healing than healing because of dead hard as a perk for survivor. The slightly longer lunge distance is barely noticeable when it comes to changing strong loops into unsafe loops. The safe pallet loops are just as strong against him as they are on every other killer.
A big telltale that his power is lacking in power is how he needs perks to actually unlock killer power. Monitor&Abuse pushes in terror radius to 8 meters so now he finally gets stealth. Alternative, you can use dead rabbit to lower his terror radius for what other killers like wraith and ghostface get automatically for needing a perk. The same be can said about his window vaulting where you need bamboozle to not need to make reads at windows in tier 3 and make tier 2 vaulting relevant. Due to time investment needed to get to tier 3, you need get 2 or more hits to counter-act your time investment of stalking to make tier 3 more relevant than what you could do by not going tier 3. This is why infectious fright is perk that gets selected on him because it counter-acts some of bad time investment from stalking.
As you can see, he is pigeon-locked into perks to either make his tier 3 bonus or tier 2 terror radius bonus semi-relevant(vs solo) to have effective power. As OP states, his power is so simple that you can make perks out of his abilities and have shape's kit on every killer.
Its interesting to see that other people are coming same conclusion as I did many years ago where i said he was weakest killer. Myers, Clown, Legion and Ghostface are all pretty close i'd say so you can make a case for any one of those killers powers being least impactful killer powers. I wonder if they'll keep weakening pinky finger clown so clown can now also be completely add-onless.
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Frank's Mixtape and Stab Wound Study is not even close to his strongest add-ons???
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Those are all accurate reasons why he's not that strong, but they don't translate to him being the worst. Basekit stealth may be less useful, but combined with his basekit instadowns he'll always be put above other weak killers like Clown (whose only utility is to shut down certain loops if and only if the pallet isn't predropped) and Legion (who do have a lot of utility but don't do any of them particularly well).
But I do strongly disagree with one thing- he's not pigeonholed into perks at all, he's actually quite versatile. You can lean into the things he's already good at, as said above, or you can bring things that cover some gaps in his kit, or you can bring fun meme builds that range in strength...
He's certainly objectively very weak if we're putting the artificial restriction of no addons and no perks on him, but even discounting kinda busted addons like Tombstone Piece, once you evaluate him with a full build he's not the weakest by a long shot. Frankly, even without a build at all he's still better than Clown and Legion solely because he has better snowball potential.
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Almost as if he were human 🤣
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StAtS dOnT LiE.
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I pretty much always run memorial flower + a tier 3 duration addon on him.
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Not leaning into his niche strengths makes him have a non-impactful power. I think if you can snowball with him, you can snowball with any killer vs that same team because myer's ability to snowball comes solely on off m1 gameplay. Given the pallet looping strength and time constraint on killers(generator efficiency), I don't think his snowball is really anything more than survivors playing poorly. I know this is going to sound alien, but I honestly think that a vast majority of the maps, an m1 killer like him can be looped for 4-5 generators.
I think that's largely the main reason why his add-ons are the way they are. When your power is as irrelevant as what he has base-kit, your only way to fix it is to jack-up the rewards for stalking to the moon. That is why he has Tombstone piece, a add-on that completely bypasses all 3 hook states and instantly deletes a survivor from the match and tuft of hair, an add-on that gives unlimited instant down capacity(permanent devour hope 3 stack). J.Myers memorial is real winner add-on that makes him not the worst killer in the game. it fixes his time inefficiencies of stalking and makes all other impactful add-ons(hair bow, tombstone piece and infinity ev3) usable. Clown's pinky finger is sorta same deal for him but he is not topic of interest in thread.
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Basekit and with add ons the weakest
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I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all", which would be incredibly strange to do because the alternative is an insane hypothetical that would never bear out in a real match - his snowball comes from capitalising on the first down that you can get, which can happen pretty easily if you 99 his Tier 3 and wait until you're right on someone.
And I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement that it kinda ceases to have any meaning. IF he has no addons, IF he has no perks, IF you're going against a good 4-man, IF survivors don't make mistakes... any one of those hypotheticals is a pretty big if to put on this discussion, and all of them at once leaves you with a result that is at best a trivia fun fact.
Regardless... as previously established, Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals (save for the last one) in play. He has an instadown and it's not one survivors can consistently avoid, that automatically gives him an edge over the actual bottom-of-the-barrel killers in the roster. Tack onto that his stealth and the fact that nobody is going to run him perkless and addonless outside of challenges, and he really shapes up, pun fully intended.
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I disagree. I still think Legion got the worst kit.
The Shape at least has an insta down and a 16m terror radius. He can get hits and stalk in and snowball the game pretty nicely. Even without add-ons and perks he can yield some results.
Is his power on the weaker side, yes. Can survivors outplay it. Pretty much yes. Do you need perks (Monitor and Abuse) or add-ons (faster stalking, different effect) to bring him to shine. Also yes...however there is one soul that is worse off:
Legion...well...okay, you use your power. You injure a survivor and maybe if they did not split up (which is the smart move anyway) you get another one injured. Great. Now what? You either hit the same person again for no effect at all beside a speed boost or you cancel your power.
Also Legion punishes you for using their power. You cancel? Well, eating a pallet to the face has a shorter stun than that. You hit a basic M1? Well, here goes 50% of you power gauge, please wait and play M1. You miss a hit? Enjoy you stun.
There is so little rewards and you represent so little danger to a survivor. I will just ignore a Legion in power for the most part. I just eat the injury, mend and maybe heal later.
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Uncounterable downs in about a minute seems a lot better than taking years for a single down.
It is the best thing they can do, but they're still weak with this.
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lol.
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I agree. Myers is in a pretty bad spot. He has poor perk synergy with just about everything and his kit brings next to no utility.
You have to bring Monitor and Abuse to make him an actual stealth killer with any lethality. Perma tier 1 is a complete joke if the survivors are any good. So he's a stealth killer who has to dedicate a perk slot to viable stealth.
He has a large time investment to reach tier 3. And it's basically a Haunted Grounds window with increased vault speed and a slight speed increase. Again, his success here is predicated on the players misplaying. He still shouldn't be getting many hits in tier 3 with a 32m TR unless players are out of position.
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I don’t know exactly how weak Meyers is compared to other killers, but I do know I enjoy playing him with his variant playstyle add-ons (Mirrors and Tombstones) waaaay more than playing him with his base ability.
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I think Trapper is still worse. He's still the only killer that has to walk around the map and pickup his own power, and after that he still has to waste time setting it up AND, even if his trap works, there's still the chance that it won't do absolutely anything thanks to RNG.
At least Myers has a very good thing which is being able to counter holding W. The smaller TR means survivors start running later than they use to, and if you have a 99ed Tier 3 you can instantly end a chase.
Not saying Myers is any good as well, he's easily the 2nd or 3rd worst.
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legion: Am I a joke tou you?🤔
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one minute is an eternity in dbd.
I'll take my duration addons and just use m1 killer gameplay to get downs, thank you very much.
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Yes, a survivor that runs out of stalk juice should be refilled automatically after a long period of time, unless Mikey is bringing some Tombstone or Tuft.
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I mean, you'll be taking longer than one minute usually as an M1 Killer if the Survivors aren't drooling out the side of their head.
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You can mindgame tiles for hits and get rid of pallets during that time, which will help you in the long run. Plus, chases usually don't last one minute if you know how to play around common tiles, and even if the survivor is really good you should be dropping chase before a whole minute has passed anyway.
Also, I run bamboozle in my main build on Legion. Which I know doesn't really matter if we're talking about the basekits of killers, but I'm just saying it's possible to make Legion more manageable.
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I agree he needs a buff. They need to look at a very critical ability he has in the original Halloween that for whatever reason is not part of his kit. The ability to drive a car. #CarForMyers
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Base kit Myers can be hard to master.
Its about 99'ing your tier 2 and popping tier 3 at the opportune moment.
The two big fixes I would go for are
- survivors not running out of stalk as you basically lose your power if the game runs long. That said you don't want to be able to just milk one survivor for a tier 3 tombstone so they have to run out but maybe start to slowly accumulate again. Once they hit max red if you stop stalking for a bit they slowly turn white again.
- He's over reliant on mind games to get those hits and they are becoming less and less viable in the current 1v1 meta, he needs maybe more of a speed and lunge boost to be really deadly in tier 3 if not timed perfectly.
I often do the Myers challenge, stay in tier 1 till at least a couple of good jumpscares/grabs or till survivors think you are scratched mirror and start getting cocky then you pop the tier two and get a few standard chases while timing your Tier 3 for a brutal endgame.
If you get even one person down in the endgame you should have enough stalk available on remaining survivors to pop tier 3 for the unhook and get at least 3 in not 4 downs and kills. Its like NOED without the perk slot and often catches people off guard.
He is definitely not as good as some killers and has little mobility so can suffer a lot against a coordinated team, but when played well he's a lot of fun to face and play.
He also has some powerful addons and any tweaking of basekit will probably involve tweaking addons and I'd hate for them to change stuff and ######### him up the way they have some other killers, that would be the last nail in DBD's coffin for me.
I'd say he's the most fun killer because of how much the game can change when facing him, but he is easily countered if you know what you are doing and I reckon that can be fixed by not capping his stalk.
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"I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all"
I think this is a bit of hyperbole. All can down survivors eventually as there is not unlimited amount of safe pallets, but it is about how long it takes to get downs. he has natural slow early game so saying he can snowball on first down sounds strange given that his early game is of the level killers like Trapper and Oni.
"Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals"
Explain how he is not an m1 killer at loops. Just like clown, you can drop pallets like candy against him and he is largely forced to break safe pallets on the map. With bamboozle and tier 3, he can vault windows as fast as survivor which sounds like advantage but because the risk vs reward for vaulting windows is not there for survivor, there is not a point in using windows against tier 3 bamboozle myers. as his reach is slightly bigger but not big enough to make pallets unsafe, it makes survivors play safer around them which is not good for you as the killer as you have little answer to dropped safe pallets. The instant-down is possible to consistently avoid at loops because it relies on survivor mistakes at pallet loops to be successful. That is like definition of an m1 killer.
"I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement"
I think no perks is not good measurement as once perks are unlocked, all killers can use them. Add-on can also be used semi-consistently but only after you have played the game enough to go past the BP grind. Going against strong survivors is not exactly uncommon if you are good at the game and its probably the only comparison that makes any sense when comparing killer strengths. I am not sure how to put it, but against new players and average survivors, every killer is probably S-tier as all of them win equally if your better than they are at survivor.
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I've been in that exact same boat before. I played a match not that long ago where the last two remaining survivors couldn't be stalked anymore, and it turned me into a regular killer with nothing but a knife. It was really boring. Personally I think that once a survivor is in the red, their stalking capability should be reduced by half instead of removed altogether.
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I guess if you define an M1 killer as just not having a ranged attack, sure, but the fact that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time. That's what separates him from the M1 killers like Trapper and Clown. Additionally, with the 99ing of Tier 3, a survivor very well may not be at a loop when you get that instadown, making this kinda moot.
There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference, because sometimes a survivor doesn't make any mistakes but you read them correctly so you still get the hit.
I also didn't say strong survivors, I said "strong 4-man" and "survivors who don't make mistakes", the former of which is much less common than some people would claim it to be and the latter of which is impossible. Yes, against strong survivors in general he does suffer, nobody's arguing that Myers is S tier, but the point is that he can still get more done more consistently than some other killers on the roster, making him not the weakest.
Here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better.
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"that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time."
So your definition of an m1 killer is a killer that has instantdown? I do not think that is quite what killer players define as m1 killers. when a player says that killer is m1, they mean that killer has no possibility to outplay the survivor i.e no anti-loop if the survivor does not make a mistake in safe loops. it means killer relies on their base movement speed to get hitsl M1 killers are not defined by their ability to have instant down or not. Otherwise killers like Huntress, Spirit, Nurse would be defined as M1 by your definition when they are clearly rely on their ability.
"There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference"
This leads to my second point. I do not think m1 killers outplay survivors at safe loops. M1 killers capitalize off survivor movement errors. Like when you down a survivor at jungle gym, you didn't outplay the survivor, the survivor did not know how to run tile correctly such that they do not get hit. it has very little to do with killer's skill and everything to do with survivor's inexperience/lack of skill. there is no control on killer part for whether or not they get hit. Survivor has full control over situation based off how they play the loop. they need make mistake for you to down them.
Killers that have anti-loop can outplay survivors because they can use their skills to counter survivor's counter-measures towards avoiding a hit. I will give example for what I mean by using huntress. When huntress raises her hatchet to go into throwing mode, survivors will keep moving straight to make distance as huntress is slower when in throwing mode, as this happening, survivors will try to dodge to left or right as huntress fires a hatchet. The huntress player can shoot left or right in anticipation of the survivor dodging left or right such that they run into the hatchet. This is an example of a killer outplaying a survivor. There is equal exchange of skill where the survivor can dodge the projectile but the killer has counter-play through their aim and prediction in still being able to hit the survivor.
This is difference between m1 killers and anti-loop killers. With anti-loop killers, the killer's skill has input on the outcome for whether they get hits or not. Their skill has input on outcome of chases, thus they get hooks. hook translate into kills. With m1 killers, you have hope the survivor f* up at loops. Its nothing to do with you. It to do with them.
"here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better."
If you finished reading the top on my post, you'll understand my perception on clown and legion being the same. I do not think they're better or worse, they're in same boat. According to you, what makes killer strong is the ability to instant down. In that sense, Legion is exactly that. he has anti-loop ability that always grants him first hit because he can fast vault windows, fast vault pallets and moves faster than survivor but it cannot down survivor without add-on franks mixtape which is utterly pointless right now because legion received negative rework many years ago. As for why he is better, he doesn't need work for his ability to injure survivors and he gets a bit of bonus tracking. Legion is apparently getting reworked so hopefully, maybe he gets his ability to down again hopefully more counter-play than what original version had. He is myers without actual time investment to get instant downs minus low tr & bamboozle t3 vaulting in exchange for killer instinct tracking. He's still m1 though.
Clown is claimed to have anti-loop, but his anti-loop is garbage in the sense that it doesn't do enough vs safe loops. Remember that purpose of anti-loop on killers is to shorten chases and his ability doesn't shorten chases against good players. All it tends to do is make survivors play more safe against him because greeding pallets is more risky and heavily discouraged from his hindered effect of purple tonic. At base-kit, he lacks lethality to capitalize off survivors that are out of position and even the classic health state wastes his time and produces long chases. That is why clown players use Pinky finger because at least than, he can capitalize off survivors being out of position. He is not really supposed to gain lethality from instant downs though. He is suppose use his haste and Hindered effects to catch up the survivor quickly after he hits them and the large increase in speed/hindered is suppose help him at loops to shorten chases but since his yellow bottle is situational at best from activation time and his pink bottle is not strong enough on its own, he remains in same state as he was before his rework that holistically did nothing. I would say pinky finger clown is better myers because he gets instant downs right at the start of the game instead having to work for it, but myers has tombstone piece which as I said, instantly deletes survivirs out of the game, so that is obviously stronger if you can 99% his EV2 and instant kill someone minus time investment to get there.
Kill-wise, Myers probably better with his strongest add-ons. Chase-wise and instant down wise. clown is way better. Base-kit wise, all of 3 are awful. Legion's probably best out of 3 at base-kit, but he has least impactful add-on out of 3 therefore weakest out of 3 when factoring perks/add-ons. I do not really play myer or legion. I still play pinky finger clown as I find him fun to play despite being weak, but when his add-on gets nuked completely, than I will not play him.
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I made a very similar thread within a few weeks after buying the game in October 2021.
Myers is the worst killer in the game and should have a DISCLAIMER "Do not play unless you are a veteran of dbd"
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No, an M1 killer is a killer that has to rely on both basic attacks and conventional looping. If a killer has a means to avoid either of those, they're not an M1 killer, which I thought was pretty intuitive from the term. Nurse technically uses M1 attacks but she doesn't have to loop, and the opposite is also true- Bubba has to loop but he doesn't have to rely on basic attacks, so he isn't an M1 killer.
Same with Myers. While Tier 3 is active, he has to loop but he doesn't have to rely on basic attacks since he inflicts Exposed as part of his basekit. When he's in Tier 2 he's an M1 killer, but he has a little stealth to help with that and even then you can catch survivors out of position before they can get to a loop and pop your Tier 3.
I straight up have no idea where you got the notion I think instadowns make a killer strong, that's completely disconnected from anything either of us have been talking about. I said instadowns prevent him from being an M1 killer, because they do, and I said that instadowns give him an edge over the actual worst basekit killers, which they do, but I never said anything about them making a killer strong? In case I have to, I'm gonna repeat it here: Myers is not a strong killer. He is in the bottom five killers in the game, he's just not dead last; I'd personally put him at the top of that list, though it's not saying much.
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Literally all of his other add-ons are better than these two.
I'm pretty sure reaching Bloodlust III is faster than downing with Frank's Mixtape.
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Wouldn't legion also not be a m1 killer with that logic ?
After his frenzy survivors are instant downable simular to exposed so they aren't a m1 killer anymore?
When people talk about m1 killers they mostly mean that those killers have to rely on their basic movement speed to reach the survivor to hit them and not have a ability to enhance movement or hit from a distance or both
Saying Myers isn't a m1 killer cause he can get brief instances of exposed is not really correct.
That would mean that after getting the first hit no killer is a m1 killer anymore cause they all down the survivor from a single hit at that point.
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I wouldn't call Legion an M1 killer, no. This is getting a little off topic, though, my argument hardly hinged on the idea that Myers isn't an M1 killer, it was just a side point. Hell, call it whatever you want- the point is that he's not powerless and can circumvent the need to hit twice through looping, whatever you'd call that is fine by me.
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Absolutely not. Myers does not have a strong base kit, but there are worse. Underestimating a smaller terror radius on maps with los blockers is silly, it can be very useful, and the window vaulting being faster can make a difference if you mind game correctly.
Off the top of my head Legion and Trapper have a far worse base kit. One can’t kill in their power and the other will lose 2-3 gens to set up their power. That’s just a quick thought, debatably there are other worse than Myers, but he most certainly isn’t the bottom of the bunch.
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An insta-down with an extra long lunge is weak?
This is a game where you are playing against players that have extremely limited tools available and we are saying a killer with the smallest terror radius and a 1-shot is weak? I can only shake my head in disbelief.
If I remember correctly he is in top in kill rates. He needs basekit nerfs if anything.
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"Nurse technically uses M1 attacks but she doesn't have to loop,"
"Same with Myers."
Nurse is not the same as Myers. I do not know how you conclude that they're the same.
Myers is still M1 killer in tier 2 and in tier 3. In tier 3, with bamboozle perk, he has anti-loop towards windows but as I explained above. you can simply not use windows and utilize pallets to defeat him. you can be m1 killer and have instant downs. I do not understand how this difficult to comprehend.
Using your ability does not change whether your m1 killer or not. its in the nature of the ability. Ghostface activating nightshroud during chase is still m1 killer because Nightshroud does not do much in a chase towards safe pallets.
"I straight up have no idea where you got the notion I think instadowns make a killer strong, that's completely disconnected from anything either of us have been talking about"
you said that having instant down makes you not an M1 killer. My counter-argument was that he is still m1 killer and that instant down does not matter if the survivor utilizes safe pallet loops correctly in conjunction with generator repair efficiency. I am not saying he is only m1 killer in the game, there are others, but he is probably most pure m1 killer out of any killer in the game.
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Alright, fair enough! I will yield that Myers is an M1 killer. This really changes very little about the actual point, being that he's stronger than people give him credit for and that there are at least two killers weaker than him, but you've definitely proven that much.
I also didn't conclude that Nurse and Myers are the same, I concluded that Bubba and Myers are the same, you selectively cut out the part of my message where I made that clear: both have to loop but neither have to rely on basic attacks to secure their downs since they both have an instadown capacity. Bubba is better than Myers, for the record, because Bubba's instadown is more consistently available, but the principle of not having to hit every survivor twice to get a down remains the same.
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