The nerf to circle of healing does almost NOTHING, here's why:
Initially I thought the nerf would have been good, because I thought the formula was, when self caring:
16/0,75= 21,33 seconds
And when being healed: 16/1,75=9,14 seconds.
Which would be, with sloppy butcher: 16/0,55 =29,1 seconds, and 16/1,55= 10,32 seconds.
Sadly, as I discovered from McLean and checking the wiki, the formula doesn't work like that:
Because the formula is:
Normal CoH self care: 16/((1+0,75)(1-0,5)) = 18,29 seconds
Normal CoH 1 teammate healing : 16/((1+0,75)(1)) = 9,14 seconds
And, with sloppy I'm pretty sure it becomes:
Sloppy CoH self care: 16÷((1+0,75−0,20)×(1−0,5)) = 20,65 seconds
Sloppy CoH 1 teammate healing:16÷((1+0,75−0,20)×(1)) = 10,32 seconds.
This is almost nothing
And if they have a medkit, sloppy butcher does even more nothing!
Suggestion to buff the perk:
As is was for iron will and other perks, make the debuff multiplicative, not additive.
You cannot make it act inside other part of the formula, because even if it would make the time
16/((1,75)*(1-0,5-0,2)) = 30,48 seconds, to self care with the perk self care it would take 53 seconds, so that it's not the solution.
The only solution I found to this problem is:
1: buff self care just a little bit, to 55/60%, so it becomes a viable but not oppressive perk again
2: buff sloppy butcher to 30%, aka 0,7.
This would make the formula for the perk Self Care with Sloppy: 16÷((1×0,7)×0,6) = 38,1 seconds
Self Care with no sloppy:16÷((1)×(0,6))= 26,67 seconds
3: nerf circle of healing a bit again to only +50% healing bonus, so it would become:
Normal CoH self care: 16÷((1+0,5)×(0,5)) = 21,33 seconds
Healed by 1 teammate in CoH : 16÷((1+0,5)×(1))= 10,67 seconds
CoH sloppy self care:
16÷(((1+0,5)×0,7)×(0,5)) = 30,48 seconds
CoH sloppy healed by a teammate:
16÷(((1+0,5)×0,7)×(1)) = 15,24 seconds.
This would make the effect of having no medkit harsher and make sloppy butcher an actual counter to circle of healing.
Still, this is a bad solution: if you don't have sloppy butcher, or they simply have medkits (and you don't have Franklin's), this nerf is still nothing.
To fix the problem, the easiest way imo would be not to give the Self Care with CoH the -50%, and to nerf the perk to +20/25% only speed bonus.
Or, even better, increase the self care penalty to -60/65%
If you check the numbers, you can see this type of penalty makes much more sense overall, and wouldn't need to move perks around. The normal CoH self care would be:
16÷((1+0,75)×(0,4)) = 22,85 seconds, with sloppy 28,57 seconds.
It would solve so many problems, and if you ever wanted to heal fast, you'd need to call a teammate, which would be inefficient and slow down gens.
Another idea that circled around is limiting the times you can "abuse" the perk, which imo should exist in some form:
What I mean with this is that, for example, against a Hag you can be very efficient at destroying a lot of her traps and just go to CoH and heal insanely fast.
These problems occur with and without medkits, that you can hide from Franklin's, and eventually will lead to a point where the Hag simply cannot keep up.
Other changes would have to be made, but this would be a nerf that would fix so many problems, because 2 seconds more is literally no nerf, it's NOTHING.
Comments
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Oh, they're well away the CoH nerf does nothing. The whole point was to make it LOOK big (A whole 25% sounds like allot!) but ensure it did nothing to weaken CoH.
This way, Survivors could claim 'The devs majorly nerfed CoH by 25%! Killers need to stop complaining!' while full knowing it was only 4 seconds of nerf, and in no way affected the perk's usability. This way, they could continue to enjoy a broken perk while telling Killers to stop being upset about it.
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Pretty much
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Exactly
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Circle of healing and all other healing boosting perks are inherently designed to counter sloppy butcher and other negative healing debuffs.
Instant downs and broken status effect(such as plague, bubba, etc.) are meant to counter healing.
The negative healing debuff perks are suppose keep survivor injured when healing perks are not in play. In the past, I used to use sloppy butcher and thanatophobia because I noticed that before COH was invented, survivors had poor healing options in regards to perks and their good healing options were limited, so the idea that I could equip two perks and keep entire team in instant down status was like amazing deal. Its in part to why survivor's complained about forever freddy because he would hit them once and from that point on, they were basically injured entire game vs a killer that had decent chase potential. hence they nerfed that to the ground.
from personal point of view, out of all killer aspects of playing killer, my most demised aspect of playing killer is bodyblocking. I hate body-block with a passion. Bodyblocking is probably the activity that makes you feel like your 5 cent killer with no power. its often the activity that survivors use stimulate to showcase their power-role complex. So negative healing perks was a way for me to deter survivors from bodyblocking. To explain why bodyblocking is effect. Killers get slowdown when they hit a survivor and survivor get speed boost so in cases like EGC, its free escape from exit gate and during normal gameplay, its great counter to tunneling. It can really hurt you in long run as killer vs strong teams as showcased in the whole tru3ta1ent vs Oracle wraith videos.
self-care does not need a nerf, so that never happening. Boon totems as a whole were suppose to be limited area effects that empower the survivor in limited area. In their words, boons were meant to be strategically placed. COH is not a limited area effect. its global ability that unlocks the ability for every player to self-care on the map at near med-kit level speeds. There is no real strategy to it. Its just strong bonus without much thought process that survivors run to when they're injured. survivors already cheat perk economy pretty hard from 16 vs 4, so COH really exaggerated perk economy even harder to like 18 vs 4. speed is definitely a strength of the perk. I would say that COH is like fake 5th survivor on the team that heals you for free. I think the defining strength though of the perk is that it disincentives the killer to injure multiple survivors because injuring as a whole lacks any reward/meaning with it active.
With med-kits, med-kits have limited charges and not every lobby is 4 med-kits, so not every survivor is pointless to injure and there is a point where the med-kit run out and injuring becomes rewarding. COH is not like that, it never run out so its global deterrent all the time. I think boon perks would be better off if they were global like killer perks and only affected individual user. At least than, many survivor would need to equip perk and spend time looking for totems and the perk is less of global deterrence and more of powerful individual bonus. Other suggestions regarding boons have been that the killer can break totem permanent so that COH has high risk/high reward element to it.
I think just that overall, decreasing healing speed is boring way to balance healing perks because they often just incentivize the survivor to not heal and push generators faster by utilizing pallets as second chance health states because doing generators becomes faster than healing itself which is why self-care is looked down upon as a perk.
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Meant or not it doesn't matter, it's still super busted, that's why it's banned from competitive Dbd
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US VS THEM US VS THEM US VS THEM US VS THEM US VS THEM US VS THEM
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I don't mean to toot my own horn, but here's CoH vs Old CoH including Mangled/Sloppy
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/306208/new-coh-vs-old-coh-numbers
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CoH don´t nedd a speed boost at all. It would still be good as it is an unlimited free medkit for the team.
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I agree, this could be a solution
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More like US VS DEV
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Imagine if Sloppy Butcher's slowdown on healing 50%, and make Hex Pentimento also reduce healing speeds by 50%. That's the kind of numbers COH does, but in reverse.
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No, because then Self Care would become completely useless and take 64 seconds to heal. It's just circle of healing that should have -65% self healing speed, and honestly much less speed buff, maybe only 50%.
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I was being rhetorical, comparing the very high strength of circle of healing relative to other perks. It's got twice the benefit of most other perks, and if killer's healing slow down were doubled it'd be awful.
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Oh ok
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18.29 isn't much to sneeze at, especially considering that medkits with faster speeds, ready accessibility, and Built to Last exist. The 9.14 second heal is the bigger problem, which the personal healing penalty won't do much to solve.
The more subtle challenge is that if you drop it down to a 50% bonus, you get 10 & 2/3rds seconds for a heal, which is reasonable, but we also get an atrocious 21 & 1/3rds second personal heal. Plus, none of this is considering group heals, which at 50% healing speed bonus is a 5.3 second heal. So even if we adjust it down to 50%, we get a 10.33 altruistic heal, 21.333 personal heal, and a 5.3 second group heal. Even now that we've gotten one tolerable heal speed, we have 2 more ridiculous heal speeds. It's impossible to have three reasonable numbers in all three different scenarios.
So, we should probably work on bridging the gap between these numbers before anything. What would be much better than flat-out dropping the personal heal speed is an decrease to the personal healing speed penalty and then a general decrease to the heal speed bonus. We could also consider adding a cooperative healing progress penalty, like we do for generators. That way, we get a more reasonable spread of healing speeds so it's easier to balance.
It might be a good idea to maybe renew the idea behind boons while we're at it. Maybe let Plaything and Pentimento work against them, maybe make it so that there is a limited amount of procs you can get out of a totem, maybe make it so that they don't all stack onto one totem, etc. etc.
In the meantime, you can just play some instadown killers, and you'll be at a significant advantage now that they either waste time healing or are just plain down a critical perk slot. I got back into Ghostface, and ever since, my games have been pretty decent.
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It took you all that working out just to establish that +25% of a few seconds is still no time at all..?
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Could make it so that if you kick a boon totem it becomes an inverted "bane totem" which has an inverted effect of some kind.
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Don't worry, the developers will cater to the Killers by making it worthless, like Boil Over, Lucky Break and Decisive Strike, while completely forgetting about Dead Man's Switch and NOED.
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That would be one of the 5 times they've catered to Killers, as opposed to how they cater to Survivors with every update, huh?
Could not even add a QoL change to struggling without giving Survivors a reward for it.
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Snuffing boons is pretty easy so you'd have to ensure the bane would be very, very mild.
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You messed up the calculation for sloppy butcher
16 /( (1+.75)(1-.5)(1-.2))
16 / ((1.75)(.5)(.8))
16 / .7
22.85 seconds
One team mate healing is
16 / ((1+.75)(1-.2))
16 / ((1.75)(.8))
16 / 1.4
11.42 seconds
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It's not as easy as you make it out, if you're not playing a mobility killer. I think it should be of moderate strength, just enough that the survivors have to be at least slightly careful about where and when to put it down.
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Right. Doesn't matter that much anyway, the perk is still super busted.
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Even high mobility killer have NO IDEA where a boon totem can be. None. They have to guess in a giant map with no sound indication unless you're super close to the totem.
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Yep, I was just saying even if you know where the boon is, good luck getting to it without throwing.
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Already wrote so many times, make totems temporary for 90 seconds, with the ability to extend the timer by 60 seconds for any survivor who does not have the Boon perk
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75% is not bad.
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How long do you think the devs will 'look at' Circle of OP?
6 months? 12 months? Until the numbers show the Survivors are bored of using it, so they can nerf it without angering them? Need to make sure everyone gets to use the OP toy for as long as possible!
It's so funny that Killer perks and powers get gutted if they over-perform, but Survivor OP perks get 'looked at'. And nerfs are flat-out lies or couched in such a way as to trick Killers. (It got a 25% nerf! So stop whining, Killers! Just...ignore that that means 4 seconds. Because 25% sounds, like, super-big!)
They may as well just say 'Survivors spend more money, so we let them keep OP perks. Suck it up, Killers'.
And before someone says 'Buh they're nerfing Boil OPver!' Yeah; because it can literally be exploited to be immune to hooking, and changing the perk is easier than changing every map, and because they know Survivors with rage over the game turning into a slug-fest to counter Boil OPver. Of course, Survivors will bring Circle of OP, and Boil OPver, and RPD offerings, and then still blame Killers for slugging.
Kind of like how some will bring 4 meta perks each, while playing in a 4-man SWF, and cheat using voice comms, then whine that the killer 'sweats for a 4K 🤪' and screech that the Killer should 'be happy with a 3K'.
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Dont nerf healing speed just make it one use per game so it must be used smart and not spaming it constantly when killer shuts it.
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Yes old heal speed and just one use per game so surv must find best totem spot so killer dont find that easy and that is it idk why devs dont realise that is smartest thing to do.
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It makes me wish COH has a few usages or a cooldown, before it wears off and need to be reapply again. So like... if 1/2/3 full heals are used; it goes on cooldown for 2 or so minutes before you can Bless again. COH is Clearly the most powerful of all the Boon Totems, even after the nerf.
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Survivor perks only get looked at once they begin to get run on 90% of survivors, and when the player counts start dipping. Killers get nerfed because a single person used them well, and the developers want that killer specifically to be the worst in the game.
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