http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why I dislike NOED as a killer perk
Don't get me wrong; I'm not going to call NOED cheap or say it doesn't belong. In fact, if you run NOED as part of an end-game build and manage to 4K the group despite being effectively perkless for most of the match the Killer did great.
However, NOED (and face camping) is a crutch for new killers and puts them in a situation where their long term skills don't improve. As it's overly effective at low MMR it quickly puts newer killers against much better survivors when they haven't learned how to chase, when to drop chase, how to spot survivors, how to set up a 3 or 4 gen, etc. Once there, the only way out is to lose lots of matches but NOED and camping will secure one kill; possibly two leading to a lot of terrible matches before the player learns how to play more effectively.
Similarly, facecamping allows killers to get kills they couldn't have gotten otherwise. I don't have a problem with camping; I think new players would be less frustrated if they learned when camping was a smart play and when camping will guarantee a 3E and a very unsatisfying game.
Both NOED and facecamping increase kill rates as well and I'm unsure if the data used for balancing is nuanced enough to take them out.
I'd rather something be done about facecamping and NOED was not a general perk but rather a killer specific perk although it's probably way too late for that.
Anyway, a perk that leads to long term frustration in the players that should be taking it is not a good design. I have no idea how it could be changed though.
Comments
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Because it's a hex perk, period.
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So the same as b/t d/h and d/s as a crutch for bad loopers?
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Idk. Dbd is a heavily perk oriented game. Both sided are coddled by perks, but noed is ,imo, at the bottom of the list of "instant skill" perks.
I think the bigger question is "does dbd have to be skillful?"
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I wouldn't argue about DH for beginners. I run without exhaustion perks most times so I'm forced to loop better. DS and BT though have nothing to do with looping and only exist to give a player a chance to actually play.
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However, bt/dh (ds) is a crutch for new survivors and puts them in a situation where their long term skills don't improve. As it's overly effective at any MMR it quickly puts newer survivors against much better killers when they haven't learned how to loop, when to drop pallets, how to spot windows, how to set up a 3 or 4 gen, etc. Once there, the only way out is to lose lots of matches but bt/ds and dh will secure one escape; possibly two leading to a lot of terrible matches before the player learns how to play more effectively.
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I would say it's more fun when it's skillful and it's also more fun when it's played in the manner that gives more BP. I like outplaying cocky survivors but I wouldn't have the skills to do it if I just used NOED and camped from the start of the game. I can't remember which guide it was but I read that you should try to develop those skills first and my games are for, the most part, enjoyable.
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Oh and since SBMM doesn't exists and new players gonna match with SWF swat squad anyway, your concern is not a issue.
It's just like BT or DS... it allows bad killers to actually play the game in miserable matchmaking.
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Not the case in DbD I think, camping is a "skill", and since camping is most effective strategy in this game, most skillful way to play this game is going that way deeper and deeper.
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You don't really seem like you're even considering what I said but rather trying to turn this into a 'us vs them' discussion. Both killers and survivors should enjoy the game and killer needs a lot of help right now since not even 1 in 5 players is picking the killer role as evidenced by the ever lengthening survivor queues. However, ignoring design flaws that partially contributed to that won't help fix any problems
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If the killer was so bad and didn't deserve any kills, then you had plenty of time to ignore gens and do totems. If the killer was putting so much pressure on you that you couldn't really do that, then he deserved his kills.
You know what else messes up kill rate data and is far far far more common than NOED? Hook suicide. Maybe that should be removed.
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Most games have some type of play style that is effective at low/mid levels, then hits a brick wall of progress. While NOED can enforce bad habits, it’s up to the player to learn and grow. It’s very common for players to use something easy and effective to succeed at beginner levels.
A portion of players will probably be content with getting kills, and will give up once they reach the plateau that their strategy no longer works. I think as long as there are tools to help players improve and overcome those plateaus it’s fine. In general DBD offers that, but in does take effort on the players part to learn.
TL;DR: NOED is fine, players will develop bad habits while learning a game, it’s up to them to overcome and learn good habits.
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Knowing when to camp is the bigger part of that skill set and newer players just facecamp. Thus, they don't develop that skill. And, yes, match making is miserable and will remain that way until killers receive enough changed that 20% of the community will queue as killer.
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I agree with what you're saying Noed can reward bad players and thus encourages them to not "get better" and so does camping to a degree, but camping is controlled by survivors, they can ignore it and leave thus not rewarding the killer.
Both sides have crutch perks, i just see survs having 3. Why dodge a hit when you can use the b/t hit? Why dodge a hit when you get picked up then use d/s ?
why pick your loops better when you can d/h to the next loop.
It goes both ways easy enough.
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I'm not attacking NOED as a perk. I'm saying that it's not well designed and, ergo, not fine. It gives newer killers a tool that's too effective and, with the MMR system, raises their MMR too quickly. Suffering through enough games that their MMR drops and they can learn good habits would be hellish.
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It does go both ways, I completely agree. DH is much too effective and can be a crutch for bad loopers. I also agree BT and DS weren't intended to be used offensively. I just mentioned NOED because it can cause a lack of fun for both killers and survivors and newer players can get NOED quickly as a General perk while BT, DH and DS are locked behind different survivors.
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Yea NOED is complained about a lot from both sides (I don't even run the perk)
Also if a Killer is "winning" and doesn't need it then why throw hate at them?
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It really isn't, it's pretty much first hook and perks.
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I agree and also if a Killer runs something like Blood Warden, NWO, Remember Me and NOED and manages to 4K the Killer either outplayed the survivors or the survivors made a huge mistake especially after running 90% of the match effectively perkless. There's no need to throw hate.
It's like when I called out a survivor when I was solo queue for insulting a killer who didn't camp or tunnel while any gens were up but did camp at the end game. The salt thrown by the other survivor was completely uncalled for; what did you expect a Killer with only four hooks each one spread out to do if they want to salvage a part of their game? Understanding the other side's point of view is a good thing in my opinion.
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If the survivors play smart that's a 3E at least. If the survivors don't play smart it's a one way ticket to match making hell with the MMR system and a painful climb out. It wasn't such a problem before with emblems in my opinion since the Killer wouldn't rank up very much doing this. With MMR, it puts the killer at a much higher MMR than a level at which they can enjoy the game.
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how is BT or DS unbalanced, I would love to hear you explain
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Even if survivors play smart, killers can secure 2 kills pretty much no matter what, and up to 3k if they make even one mistake.
And MMR DOES NOT exists, killer matches won't change if they win or lose because there is no such things.
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The problem is, how would a new player know what good habits are? Taking away an easy tool for new players to succeed accomplishes nothing, they’d just move on to the next easiest thing. Trying to learn what solid fundamentals are isn’t stopped because of NOED, it takes desire of each player to improve. I think most experienced players think NOED isn’t great, and would tell newer players as much.
My point is the problem isn’t really NOED, but how people approach gaming. Like I said, people will hit a plateau, NOED may help them reach a slightly higher level, but I would expect not by much.
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Ok... and here's why NOED is a good killer perk and should stay more or less as it is.
It's simple honestly. How do you suppose it feels to be a newbie killer who keeps getting matched against survivors clearly too good for them for multiple matches in a row and not get any kills? It feels terrible. That sort of experience is the sort of thing that will get a player to quit early and never come back.
Enter NOED. It's a common perk, so odds are decent that new killers will get at least tier 1 of it early. It is the best common killer perk in the game and one of only a handful of good ones. AND best of all... it can give a floundering killer a morale boost by helping them out a ton at the end of a rough game to get another hook or two and maybe a kill (or more if the Survivors mess up).
In short... it is acting as a massive bandaid to the terrible experience that being a newbie killer is. It is good how it is and should stay how it is.
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The problem with what you just said is that the killer then gets matched with survivors that are too good for them consistently since MMR only measures kills. The horrible gameplay at the start is now a permanent, and not a temporary, fixture. Short term gain, long term pain. If this were the Emblem system it would be different since more than just kills were taken into account but it's not.
Killers can't get two kills for sure at every level. That's a myth. I even managed to save someone from a facecamping Bubba who couldn't catch me for 5 minutes. And I'm not that good of a survivor; I play killer far better. Tunneling facecampers at whatever level my survivor MMR is are generally getting one kill, sometimes none, and sometimes a couple more depending upon my teammates. Tonight, I played six games to pip up from Gold One to Iridescent Four before the 13th, got killed twice and every other game was a 3 or 4 man escape. I solo queue.
Every killer except one camped and every except two tried to tunnel. Two killers had decent chasing skills and the rest could be run for several minutes; one of the two only caught me since I didn't have exhaustion perks for most of the matches.
The one thing I have noted as common is that Killers I've versed that camp and tunnel, not 100% but the majority, don't know when to drop chase, spread out pressure, chase right past survivors on gens instead of listening for gen repair sounds and then hit the survivor off gen, and get their blinders on. That's fine, everyone makes mistakes and has to learn, but they shouldn't be at the MMR they're at and the only way they got there was the effectiveness of NOED and facecamping against new survivor potatoes. You don't need NOED against new survivors; low levels of play is the only time that DbD feels like it favors the killer.
It also artificially inflates kill rates at lower levels and, if that data isn't taken out of the equation, makes it look like Killers have it better than they actually do.
New killers having NOED doesn't help the game and makes it worse in my opinion. Personally, I think it should be locked behind a killer so that a new player has to get that killer to level 40 and, while still very green, has at least lost one shade of green.
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I didn't say it was unbalanced, i said like Noed it's a crutch.
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Noed give free and undeserved kills. You’re free to feel you are a very good killer
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My only problem with NOED is how it's usually used by killers who face camp their first down. They guarantee their first hook as a kill and then go for someone else and attempt another face camp kill in the end game with NOED. Especially prevalent among Leatherface players since they have the means to face camp and force the other survivors to abandon their teammate on the hook and rush out gens. If you're rushing out gens you don't have time to cleanse all 5 totems for NOED. It creates this sort of unwinnable situation where the killer can almost always guarantee a 2k or more thanks to face camping + NOED.
With end game builds this becomes even more powerful and it's not fun for the person on the hook or anyone really. I really just wish one of the two would be addressed. Face camping as Leatherface or NOED but the combination is obnoxious and it's sad that it guarantees kills at any rank so long as they get a single down.
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