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Why are there still so many god loops in this game?
God pallets, god windows, you name it. Why are there many still in the game? They make the kind of loop where your skill barely matters and a play on a tile involving then mostly can only go one way unless the killer has a power that hits through them. Not only is quite frustrating for the killer who can do nothing about them, it feels quite bland and boring too. The survivor vaults the window, the killer is forced to vault to chase. The survivor drops the pallet, the killer has to break it and then continue. If they don't, they either can't continue chasing trough that way or the loop becomes an infinite until the pallet is destroyed.
I will go further and say they're one of the reasons why Dead Hard often feels problematic and so many people hate it. If a survivor dead hards towards a pallet or window on any other loop, it wastes some of your time, but at least you have a chance of still getting them there by mindgaming. On god loops you can't mindgame or do anything but vault window/break pallet and resume, this becomes worse and gives the survivor a lot of distance and time for free... because they pressed E and that loop doesn't allow you to do anything about it.
There shouldn't be god windows in this game at all. Some of then were fixed in 2020, but some are still in the game. And god pallets, while I imagine having one or another in a map (like the one in the shack that usually goes down fast and the one at Midwich's corridor, a killer sided map) is helpful for new survivor players, there's no need for this game to have as many of them as it has today.
It doesn't help that many god loops are on already reworked maps. Groaning Storehouse has the arguably strongest loop in the game, Fractured Cowshed has strong pallets you can't mindgame and that create potential infinites when dropped, since survivors only get hit on them if they make a huge mistake. One of these pallets is on a HUGE tile that is really long on both sides and so low the survivors can see you 100% of the time. Crotus Prenn has some broken concrete walls with similar issues, so does Autohaven with the double car loops. And then there's The Game... don't even have to talk about that one.
And talking about non-reworked maps, depending on which window is open on Mother's Dwelling's main building, you can't do anything but vault and chase the survivor, who will just get to the other side and vault again. And of course, there's Haddonfield.
Why are there still SO MANY of these?
Comments
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Wait what god windows are left? Only one I can think of is Gideon’s drop down window.
I agree though map design is still awful even though they had the realm beyond as a chance to fix it
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Because the survivor player base is 4 times the size of killers, and survivors cry thinking they're little victims and not part of an overall team.
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Why wouldn’t you immediately break the pallet if it’s thrown, especially if it’s a strong pallet.
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Groaning Storehouse has a window near a breakable wall... that happens to be useless if the loop is running clockwise. You actually lose more distance for going for the door than just vaulting the window, so it's your only option.
The first lower floor of Mother's Dwelling can spawn some windows with no other way to go around, as the doors are really far away from it and the path you have to walk around the house is huge.
And then... well, there are many windows at haddonfield. Myers' house has two on the second floor and can also spawn one right beside the basement entrance. It seems the map will receive a rework soon, however.
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That's the point. It's the only thing you can do. Plays involving these pallets can only go one way.
Other pallets, however, can be mindgamed around, and that is often a better option than breaking the pallet and letting the survivor gain distance for free.
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Disturbed ward god window, rancid god window, cowshed god window, coal tower god window, grim pantry god window. Most of the time I have to run these windows to entity block unless I'm a mobility killer.
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I don't know about that. All I see are deadzones.
Most survivor friendly loops have all been removed. Killers can still swing through pallets and vaults to make contact. Half of the entire killer roster don't even care about pallets - Artist to name one. They are completely devoid of any use.
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Guys don't forget RPD's window
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"Half of the entire killer roster don't even care about pallets"
That is something I really dislike. I am from a time, and I believe you are too, when the absolute majority of the killer roster could be looped in the regular manner.
And I would've liked if it had stayed that way.
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because survivors exist, john. you can still break pallets.
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yeah, playing scooby doo simulator is always a blast as killer. Might as well change the chase music to yackety sax while we're at it.
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I mean, define "god" window and "god" pallet. In my veteran experience, a god window would be a window that would require the killer to get bloodlust 2-3 to even get a single hit or even a window that consistently loses the chase and thus can be used infinitely, these no longer exist. A god pallet would be one that both gives you like 10 loops before it needs to be dropped. Which, doesnt really exist anymore either.
Haddonfield is being reworked ATM, so that doesnt matter ATM. But from Haddonfield, the basement window is the only true god window. The rest of the god windows have been blocked or gain the killer distance.
Groaning Storehouse, you gain distance by breaking the door in the long run. It's basically losing 2 meters more the first time, but gaining 1 meter the more often that window is used. Not exactly a god window as I would define it.
Mothers Dwelling isnt a god window, you can play survivors around it. It requires thinking outside of the box a bit, but the windows would be blocked super quick. Use window blockers in your favor, instead of them being an eventuality.
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Lol one trick you can do for those damn pallets is once you down a survivor pick them up and walk over to a pallet and strike it. The survivor will think your doing an challenge then let them throw down as many as possible while you break them removing the deity status. Once you get enough you can go and hook and down. Its one of those tactics you can use if your having a bad day and it usually works to my surprise
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I play killer too and prefer regular looping, mate.
People have different opinions.
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Because the average to low level survivors would die like flies without them, inflating killrates even more and warranting many killer powers and add on nerfs.
If anything, be happy there are strong loops, its rng (maps) anyway
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You must like losing as killer then because god loops buy entire gens worth of time for almost no effort.
Loops aren't inherently bad, but they should allow mindgames. Its more engaging for both sides and less rote smearing your face against the wall to get as many laps as you can.
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Sluzzy! I remember you!
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I see it as a game mechanic... There should be ONE in every map
For Survivors to use how they please
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That made you feel like you had counterplay. Now it is too easy for killers because you don't have to mindgame. Set a dire crow and cause the survivor to only do one thing.
I suppose Trapper couldn't be looped back then but look how much he has been buffed and maps nerfed. Less good loops, yet he has even more traps to use. His traps are also way darker than they used to be (free tar bottle). Way too many buffs, yet nothing to compensate for them.
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So immediately breaking it and creating a dead tile that decreases time you take on the next chase near there isn't the optimal play? Part of the skill needed in this game imo is recognizing the strength of the tile you are at and what to do about it.
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You can literally drop a god pallet, and run to the next one. The window pallet pallet.... before the killer catches you, and rinse repeat easily over and over until all 5 gens are done. Game is a mess and joke for killer
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Untrapped areas could be looped, I suppose, as long as you stayed alert. When I started, Nurse, Spirit and Legion were the ones you had to keep in mind when it came to looping.
Now...now there is way too much of those and I don't like that at all.
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I'm referring to windows and pallets you can do nothing about beside vaulting/breaking, in other words, pallets and windows you have no way to play around unless you killer power has antiloop. That applies to all the windows on Myer's house, that can waste plenty of the killer's time with no real way of playing around them.
Groaning Storehouse's breakable wall only gives you distance if the loop is counter clockwise. If it's clockwise, using it backfires.
"Thinking outside the box" on mother's dwelling will only work if the survivor is not even paying atention. If they just look behind them and notice you haven't vaulted the window after them, they can just wait there and vault back if you appear on the other side. Or even slow vault back when they notice you can only be walking around the house. They have a lot of time for it. If you have to just go with it untill the window is blocked, so you don't really have a way of playing around it. I'm talking about the windows at the back of the house, not the one in the small room with the table nor the one on the second floor, those are fine.
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One god pallet on every map wouldn't bother me. I never really had a problem with the shack pallet, for example. What annoys me is the high amount we have today.
But now, windows... I think the only godwindow that doesn't bother me at all is the one at Gideon's, since you can't loop around it anyway.
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We do, but it's stupid because that wastes our time and the survivors get a huge lead on us, and there's basically no way to get them at that pallet once it's dropped. There's no gameplay from the killer side at these god pallets.
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How is that an optimal play if it's literally the only thing you can do? It doesnt' require skill, only some basic knowledge in the least, and many beginner killers have an habit of breaking every pallet anyway. And by the time you break it, they often will already have looped around it a few times, and now you will lose more distance by breaking it. Once you know how it works, it will go the same every single game unless you're playing a killer who can ignore pallets with its power.
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But then think of Survivors with no god loops... yea it'll fit the Horror element that the game hasn't had in a while
But then they'd whine, (Bad Word) and complain that Killers are OP
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On the contrary, I honestly have fun looping killers like nemesis or pyramid head. It's fun to greed pallets and watch them respect it with their power, it's like going against huntresses when they loop. I get the why people don't like looping against an artist though, not much counter play other than hold w.
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You can loop Huntress if you know the hitbox limitations tho. I like going against her.
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I mean, I wouldnt call needing to break something to remove it "god" in this game. You have to keep in mind that survivors arent always premade, and thus have no clue on what is and isnt available to loop.
If it's clockwise, it doesnt backfire at all, its barely beneficial for survivors to use either the door or the window to the point they'd have to use the other window if they want to refrain from getting injured.
And even slowvaulting counts towards window block if you're in chase. You effectively dont want to vault god windows. Either break a wall or predict them going towards the window so you can cut them off.
Groaning Storehouse is quite fine, its still a powerful loop, but the map in general favors killers who place pressure on generators.
Mothers Dwelling still needs a rework, Swamp too, and its likely done after Haddonfield. Mothers Dwelling isnt perfect, but that's not exactly the main building being the issue, its mostly the amount of distance both sides need to make before they can do something.
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Yeah, I said I like looping nemesis and pyramid head just like how I like looping huntresses, by greeding pallets and dodging their power.
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There's no gameplay from the survivor side at pallets that are extremely weak. All you can do is hope you get the stun and the killer keeps building bloodlust. Its stupid
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Disturbed ward is fair but the rest of these have breakable walls that make them pretty average vaults
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Ehhh grim pantry window is literally a window you can't really beat until entity block if ran right by the survivor. Rancid window can still be ran until entity block despite the breakable wall being there, Cowshed window still can get you to the tractor loop, coal tower is coal tower, oh yeah forgot saloon window.
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If you absolutely need to break it to even have a chance of getting that survivor, than they will gain distance for free after the time they already spent on that loop. And of course, that one survivor will know not to return there, other solo survivors won't, but an SWF still will.
Groaning Storehouse actually favors survivors due to it's gen spread. It's one of those maps your only hope is trying to get a 3 gen, but then there's also that insane building. Vaulting the other window is just an extra option for them after they already spent some time vaulting one and the killer gets close. If they get any headstart it's even worse, they can gain distance while preventing the killer to enter chase. There is no real counter to a survivor running that loop right. Not to mention there are connected jungle gyms if survivors go towards the corners, and a long pallet loop outside the building too. Groaning Storehouse is actually the worst Macmillan State map for killers.
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Is this the new thing we're complaining about now? Yeah, I would much prefer if maps didn't have pallets or windows at all. That would make my job so much simpler. Reduce the height of every wall to that of the Haddonfield fences too, since they block line of sight and prevent me from quickly dispatching those pesky survivors! On that though, just remove obstacles altogether. Maps should either be flat spheres or squares, oh, and don't forget to make generators and hooks translucent, otherwise a survivor might try and hide behind one.
Seesh, it's okay for survivors to have some safety. What's next? Complaining about shack pallet? Survivor could throw it, forcing me to break it! Now that's inconvenient and prevents me from quickly killing that person, I say we do away with them. Shack is annoying enough as is.
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Coal tower is a balanced map at least by dbd standards. Saloon is probably the best killer map in the game
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its not that god loops exist, its that they are not static. Having like 1 or 2 in set positions on each map is fine, but there are procedural loops that can become god loops due to RNG, especially in regards to breakable doors. When the concept was announced everyone expected some badass koolaid man crap where the killer could just bust through and continue the chase, but in reality they just sealed doors either making either dead ends or god windows.
Then there's tiles that don't respect other tiles. You can have a very strong pallet line up perfectly with the window from killer shack, effectively making it so the shack can be chained unless both pallets are broken. And since they're pallets and not doors, the killer can't do it preemptively and has to either waste the time, or consider the entire area a dead zone due to the amount of time it wastes. Obviously some anti-loop killers can either force the pallets to be used early or circumvent the loop altogether, but for M1 killers thats game losing RNG in a single area of the map.
I remember Tru saying that he thinks the procedural generation in the game needs some type of points system to make sure maps don't end up either too strong or too weak for survivors, and I agree. Instead of just making it based on pallet and hook counts and distances, there should be an even distribution of safe and unsafe loops, with a fairly even distribution between maps. The goal should be to have less X sided maps and more maps where either side doesn't feel completely helpless.
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Im gonna be real, we need MORE god loops. Killers need to be more skilled.
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The best method to achieve this ballance would not be via procedural generation and RNG, but to have static maps that are specifically tuned to those requirements. Maybe there could be a few hand-made variations of the same map so it's still kind of random which one you get, but the layout was created by a human who understands these elements better than some procedural generation code does. Seems like a better idea than leaving it up to some algorithm with dozens of constraints placed on it, and hoping for the best (it's BHVR we're talking about here).
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There is no skill related to god loops. This would only make the game less skill-based. Survivor need less or no skill to run this loops and the killer's skill just doesn't matter as there is only one thing possible that can be done.
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The maps using procedural generation is kinda their thing. Each map tends to have a few static structures (with each alternate version of said map being a variation of them,) with most of the other tiles being rng with some set specifications. If everything were entirely static, things would be a bit too predictable and lore wise neither the survivors nor the killers are supposed to remember each trial (so it creates a bit of a deja vu effect.) That said, the procedural generation rules are a bit too simplistic, which is what creates deadzones for either side so often. They've taken babysteps to fixing this over the years, with stuff like making sure pallets/windows/hooks/etc have set thresholds that are required to spawn in, while also making sure they have minimum distances from each other (but only really of the same type.)
For example, an L/T tile is generally considered pretty fair for both sides, with the killer gaining advantage over time but still having mindgame potential: Since there is no pallet, the longer the killer commits, the survivor can't really force them to reset bloodlust and the entity blocker can activate if the loop isn't run properly. However, some maps can have multiple of these loops spawn back to back, allowing the survivor to both gain more distance while preventing the entity blocker from activating, extending the chase substantially without using any actual resources (pallets or breakable doors.) If one of those LT's is connected to a jungle gym, or close to a god pallet, they can even then force the killer to reset bloodlust and start over from scratch without anything to show for it.
Likewise, survivors can get an area of the map with a perfect 3 gen setup and zero safe loops, making it near impossible to break through if the killer decides to protect it well enough. Both of these situations heavily favor one side over the other, and players who are able to take advantage of the imbalance can pretty much guarantee a win because of it. Of course all of this is going off of baseline mechanics (killers with no antiloop, survivors with no perks to directly counter 3 gens) but thats what you have to design for. If you design specifically for bandage fixes, you make said fixes mandatory... which is why the meta gets so damn stale in terms of loadouts and people resort to unfun tactics.
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Anyone who plays on coal tower knows it's not balanced. Same issue with cowshed, loops just keep chaining into each other. Sure it might be one of the smallest maps but the gen spread is still enough to matter.
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He makes comments about unskilled survivors and "god loops" but doesn't break a pallet on chase. I have had a good laugh at that for some time now. A lot of loops can be god loops if you don't break the pallets, good lord these people baffle me.
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That is gameplay. You have to know when to drop it. Those situations aren't easy for the killer; they have to commit at some point too. And getting the stun resets a whole level of bloodlust, which sets the killer back 15 seconds. And the fact that we're talking about bloodlust at short loops. If the killer has to bloodlust to get you at a weak loop, is it really a weak loop?
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Now I'm going to ask if you bought some cheap crystal ball on eBay and it said to you I don't break a pallet on chase, because I never said that AT ALL. What I said is that these are pallets you have no option besides breaking it after the drop. Usually you can mindgame a loop, and after the pallet is dropped you decide if you break it or try to get the survivor through mindgames. On these loops there are no mindgames possible and the play always go one way since there are no choices to be made. Then the survivor get free distance after the time it got from the loop you couldn't mindgame anyway. But go on, have a good laugh and argue about things I never said.
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To be fair, there are very few pallets that seem to be in the game just for show. That pallet on the Temple of Purgation's cellar and the one near one of the basement spawns in RPD are quite bad.
You can literally lunge around the tile in the temple, and RPD... well, that map has some loops that are either ridiculously strong or pathetically weak.
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a god pallet is pallet that requires killer to kick it to proceed and if not kicked, it produce bloodlust 3 infinity. all safe pallets are god pallets because all safe pallet rely on survivor to make a mistake for killer to get a hit thus require killer to kick it to proceed chase when the survivor is competent.
Most of tile sets are god pallets because once the pallet is dropped, it becomes bloodlust 3 infinity for the survivor which is why most killers kick these right away after being dropped. Because killers are slow at breaking pallets, it gives survivors distance to go on to next loop in which they can also play just as safe and repeat exact same process.
I'd draw picture of each of these loops but for some reason forums are blocking my access to do so.
Unsafe pallets are pallets where the killer's reach exceeds the pallet length thus it allows killer to get an m1 hit. It can also turn unsafe if killer movement speed increases because movement speed artificially decrease loop length.
a god window is window that the survivor can vault multiple times and it often forces an entity blocker and high-level of bloodlust for killer catch up.
again because forums for some reason block ability to show any images. I can't show anything.
Growning storehouse has one-sided god window loop because the killer is forced to go around the window where as survivor can vault the window. If the loop is clock-wise, I believe the survivor can fast vault window from outside, but if its counter-clockwise, the survivor is forced to medium vault window. There is no mindgames because the survivors can see the killer from insides and outside.
Father chapel has a rng god window on bottom floor.
Mother dwelling has rng god window.
Gas heaven can have one if the generator inside garage is completed. You can also make one if you break the breakable walls inside garage that lead to generator inside.
Backwater swamp has one on that structure that has 1 window one side and 2 windows on other side. the one window is god window and other two can be god windows IF the killer has no anti-loop towards windows like pig for example. Depending on which side the double window and single window spawns, its either weaker on clock-wise and stronger on clock-wise or reversed if the windows are flipped because medium vaulting vs fast vaulting. The survivor will get hit though by end of this loop because of bloodlust 3 & no safe/god pallets to reset it but you can definitely use your health state to waste a lot of time here.
Racoon police city station has 2 god windows. one of them is in library. for this I don't even want to explain it, so I looked up a video to explain here. you can watch video. bottom right side is god window and library windows are god windows.
I would say the game suffers more from god pallet/safe pallets than windows, but there are problematic windows. Its just that many of them were patched out over-time so there is less of them than there was before.
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You think the trapper is buffed, it's kind of the same the add-ons for more traps have more downsides than upsides
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If only anti-loop killers exited and made up more than half the roster. Oh, wait...
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