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Otzdarva Shares Opinion On Onryo: 'Below Average, C Tier'.
Thoughts?
Weirdly, that's exactly where I put her. Low to mid C tier, below Wraith.
She doesn't need a lullaby, for starters - and survivors need more of a reason to handle tapes/TVs.
Comments
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Condemn is weak. So far i've only gotten 1 condemn kill and ive been playing her for multiple hours. As a survivor you don't even really need to worry about the tapes and condemn, its mostly a joke if you know what you are doing.
She's basically your typical M1 killer with small spooky factor. The lullaby should be removed.
I like playing her but if i go against survivors that do more than urban evase at bushes yeah...she's not great
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It strange she still weak after buff.
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Well I don't think it should be common for you to pick up condemn kills. But condemn certainly isn't very pressuring as it stands. Survivors don't really need to interact with tvs except to remove condemn because Sadako teleporting to a tv puts it on a longer and is very telegraphed that it's easy enough to get distance while she's in animation.
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The buff was mostly a QOL thing.
She's still just...weirdly designed. She brings nothing to the table that other killers don't bring (and bring better), a huge part of her kit feels completely superfluous. The other part (her stealth) feels incredibly weak and not working like you'd hope stealth would. On top of this, she has zero tools to help with loops.
At present, playing her is like playing Freddy. And modern Freddy...sucks. Otherwise, it's like playing a heavily gimped Demogorgon without his Shred.
Condemn as a whole is a silly concept. I'd much rather have a meter that gradually builds up while being in the radius of a TV, with an extra spike if she teleports to you - but rather than making you mori-able, it just makes you exposed and resets if you get hooked or something. It only results in a mori if you are on your third hook (PH style).
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The buff didn't affect the problem part of her power.
It is totally fine to have a 'ticking clock' mechanic that forces you to do something with the threat of a punishment that is unlikely to ever happen. But the buff of making buildup faster with a tape doesn't address that you never ever have to care about the buildup in the first place to make you go DO a tape. So it didn't affect the reason why the mechanic fails as a ticking clock.
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This!
I don't think I've seen a survivor even bother taking a tape today outside of 2 games (out of 20ish) where someone hit max stacks towards the end of the game. And that was one solitary person in the entire match.
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Also remember healthy survivors with tapes are effectively immune to being moried as interacting with TVs takes so little time that you should never get hit twice before you use the right TV.
So survivors as it currently stands can just ignore the mechanic entirely until max stacks then just rush past the killer to remove it.
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This is exactly what I've observed. I managed to mori a single person, and that was someone very clearly just curious about the animation.
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Yeah ive had multiple matches when i didnt have to get rid of my condemn stacks at all as a survivor. Only if i wanted to close the tv that was next to my gen forced me to clean them once. If i ignore the tvs all together chances are high that i never need to *make a copy* or *Return the tape* So the effect on the survivors is very small and causes no inconvenience
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From playing against her, I have to say I can see what the developers were intending
Basically, I think the idea was for survivors to go "Hm, this generator also has a TV near it - maybe I should remove the tape to make sure she can't teleport over here for a while" and in theory, if survivors kept doing this then they would have to waste a bit of time ridding themselves of the build up while they work on the generator. This would create a risk vs reward scenario, rob the killer of mobility while adding condemnation.
There's also the fact that survivors holding tapes can turn off multiple TVs, instead of just one - meaning the developers expected survivors to go around turning them all off - which again doesn't happen because it's pointless.
The big problem lies in the fact that unless Sadako downs someone (Which, since she's an M1 killer - chases can drag on), then there's no real need to worry about the TVs.
Also having the TV turn off when the killer uses it defeats the point of turning it off because if the killer does break chase to come after you on a generator, you'll gain less condemnation AND the TV will turn off making that gen safer for a teammate to finish
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Why can't it be common, though? The idea that a Mori ends the game early is weak in her case, as you can't get condemn in a chase like you can a Mori with say, Myers. It makes sense that someone like PH has to have his Mori locked behind the normal ruleset, because he has an actual anti-loop (as well as the ability to tunnel like no other with his secondary).
It should absolutely be a factor for her, and it can't be that unless the threat is there every game. It should actually be almost as common as getting a full hook on survivor, because otherwise, what's really the point? The power of removing a survivor by it is already weaker than a bubba camping with corrupt and deadlock.
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Honestly the only good "1v4" power that we have is Pinhead's box. Requires no set up from Pinhead. Survivors can't ignore it, because it will stall the game out. And it does remove at least a single survivor from doing gens for a moment since they have to go to the box and solve it.
Pig is in theory strong, but the combination of needing to down survivors before gen pops and rng with the boxes. It's not reliable slowdown. It can be very effective. But this is more what Sadako's condemnation should be like rather than how it is atm.
Sadako's condemnation is really similiar to Freddy Dream World in threat level. There's not much reason to go out of your way to wake yourself up at clocks, because there's no immediate threat to being asleep. Sure if you get chased Freddy has an advantage in chase and it does make his tp faster, but it's not hard enough to back off a gen he's teleporting to. At least though Freddy's dream world is passive. Sadako has to be somewhat active to get survivors condemn in the first place.
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Against the better survivors I've faced today:
- TVs are totally ignored until much later in the game, if at all.
- If someone gets max stacks, they do a single tape then and only then.
- If you teleport to a TV, smart survivors just hide and then leg it - because there is a lengthy moment where she can't see anything on emerging.
- Going in demanifested doesn't feel much sneakier than going in manifested most of the time, unless you are on an indoor map or the very odd occasion where there's an easy concealed approach - and even then, the lullaby alerts them well in advance.
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Personally feel like she’s B tier, her power provides great map pressure and is great at injuring survivors quickly but she does struggle in chase like most M1 killers.
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Also if you do hit max condemnation, there's almost no reason to not turn off as many TVs as you can before turning in the tape. Since it's not like gaining an extra stack when you are already at max stacks hurts you.
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I'd put anything that has no strength in a chase in B tier at best. She can slightly mindgame with manifest, but in the end you're playing Wraith without the lunge, you know, 3 years ago's Wraith that was considered bottom tier.
Her condemn doesn't do much of anything, it's a distraction at best. Her TVs have a ridiculously long cooldown, and any at useful places can be disabled with no counterplay.
I don't see what she has going for her that puts her above any other killer.
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Keep in mind that she'd be sharing B tier with Cenobite, Wraith (maybe), Demogorgon and Nemesis - all of which are objectively stronger than she is.
I think mid 'C' tier is about appropriate. She's about on par with post-nerf Freddy - and actually feels quite a bit like him.
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I think Wraith is currently C tier. Largely since CoH really hurt his one major strength and the lunge nerf just made him harder against good survivors.
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Actually I killed someone tonight who had their tape and was running for the TV to try and get rid of the stacks. Keep in mind you get the killer instinct where they are and they are running to what might be the farthest TV on the map from them. It actually wasn't that hard to down them before they could use the TV. (The hard part is hoping they're stupid enough to actually get to seven stacks in the first place.)
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I haven't seen Otz talk about it today but on his most recent tier list he has Wraith as C tier so it's not surprising if he rates Sadako as B or C tier. She's sort of like a somewhat improved Wraith in chases.
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Also it is kind of weird that fully condemned survivors aren't exposed considering how difficult it is to actually reach those seven stacks
The closest I came to the seven stacks was when I was experimenting and seeing if turning off TVs to curb her mobility was worth it. I'm not really sure tbh.
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I don't even move the tapes, from my experience it's safer to plan an escape from a gen if Onryo teleports to a nearby T.V. and then that T.V. is turned off because she used it.
Moving tapes and risking building condemn so far I've seen in survivors just dying to her free mori. So far hasn't felt very safe.
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I actually played a few Wraith games to contrast the two, and I'd put her a position or two below Wraith.
Wraith has better anti-loop, more reliable stealth and much better overall mobility.
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Well. Yeah. She isn't good. Wish she was but she isn't.
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Yeah so far C tier seems fairly accurate. On the PTB I would've said D tier
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I would put her in Mid C Tier. If you go against survivors who know what they're doing then she is very weak. Survivors can just remove a tape, fix a gen, and then get rid of their tape before condemned even does a thing.
Survivors need more reason to handle/discard tapes and condemned needs to be adjusted.
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She's meh. I'm enjoying her (the grass dampens my mood on her, it fills half the screen), but I know she won't stand up in the higher skill setting.
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I wouldn't say low C, probably just C and maybe low B on certain maps but that's mainly if you abuse the condemned play style.
Shes a basic attack killer so I'm not sure what people expect, i have found a little antiloop hidden in an addon and her power but it's not amazing
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What if when she teleports ALL survivors, not just nearby ones gain a stack of condemned?
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This ^
I've gotten 3 Condemned moris out of the 4 times someone has hit max stacks. Once they're fully Condemned if they aren't literally at the TV when you find them, which is actually fairly easy if you know where the TVs are and/or have the addon that shows the location of turned off ones, they're very easy to kill.
The issues that I have with her kit come from 2 places though:
-Enduring feels almost mandatory on her, because you are eating pallets for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
-Condemned doesn't build quick enough.
Combine both of these with COH continuing to exist and you have a killer that I feel is fun to play as and again, is excellently designed and I am very happy with existing, however needs just a few more pushes to get her into strong territory without making her too strong.
She's definitely one of the higher skill cap killers, though nowhere near Blight or Nurse level, maybe comparable to Spirit but weaker, and I hope we get some more buffs in an upcoming midchapter like we did Trickster, with the caveat that unlike Trickster she's actually well designed.
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And Hens also has the same opinion,I guess she's still an m1 hit and run killer that has to deal with pallets and loops.
Her teleport is nice but just like Freddy,just because they can teleport around map doesn't mean they're op lol.
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It is not strange at all given they didn't address any of her problems, they just made her more fluid to play.
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her problem is her kit is an amalgmation of concepts other killers do better. TV teleport is freddy teleport but worse. Condemn is like an amalgmation of being asleep, being tormented, and having an RBT but its worse because you don't waste anywhere near as much time as pigs RBTs, dont passively fall asleep like freddy, and don't get to avoid hook perks like BT/DS with pyramid head.
Her ability to "demanifest" is just wraiths power but with no speed and poor invisibilty and her "decloak" isntead of giving you something useful like wraiths speed boost gives you spirits passive phasing, a mechanic of hers which is largely ignored because who cares about it.
The ONE thing she does that is even close to unique is move through survivors who are bodyblocking, although meyers is technically capable of doing that too since you lose collision while stalking and can quickly tap your stalk ability while someone is body blocking to go through them.
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Condemnd need a buff to be actually pressured.Its a weak pig slowdown.
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I’m confused. Hasn’t he been saying for weeks he believed she was A tier and it’s just ppl playing her wrong? What changed? High MMR?
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Nothing unexpected, it was always clear even before release she will be extremely underwhelming, she is mix of 3 or 4 other killers which then divided by 8.
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Why are you still debating here? When a famous streamer like Otz tells you the truth, then internalize it and spread the news!
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How is Wraith’s anti-loop better than hers? He literally can’t Decloak midchase without giving up so much distance to the survivor that they get away.
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I will say it feels a bit anticlimactic that the survivor isn’t Exposed when they’re fully Condemned. It kind of seems like it should at least work like Rancor where they’re instant downable and killable.
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And don't forget for some reason Survivors can have a tape AND thier items they bring in. How is that possible or allowed, Pin Heads box takes up the item slot, Nemis vaccine takes up a slot, even Leon's flashbangs takes up a slot. So why is it that her item goes into a pocket dimension.
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- I think her teleport is actually significantly better than Freddy’s. Unlike Freddy she can teleport over and over until she finds a chase if she wants, and she also gets a significant speed boost coming out of the teleport. (Freddy gets snares to make up for his lack of speed in loops, but that’s nothing to do with his teleport.) Also Freddy can only teleport to gens that aren’t finished, so by the end of the match his options are limited and he notably can’t teleport near the gates once the gens are done. Sadako’s TVs last the whole match, so if she needs to teleport somewhere near a completed gen she can still do it.
- Her Demanifest is also significantly better than Wraith’s Decloak because, unlike Wraith, she still moves at about survivor speed while Demanifesting. Wraith slows to a miserably slow speed while Decloaking, enough so that even with the extra speed he gets afterward the survivor will still get a huge amount of distance from him by the time it’s finished. The only way he gets hits out of a Decloak is by trying to bodyblock or Decloak from hiding and catch survivors offguard so they get confused about which way to run away. Sadako can pretty much Manifest and Demanifest midchase with little problem, and even gets a bit of an edge by Manifesting midchase since she is still intermittently invisible during it.
I’m not trying to claim she’s “great”, but she definitely feels like she’s better than her counterparts in those respects.
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Sadako is what happens when 1 member of the the dev team has an idea for the power, and then the whole rest of the team spend all their time coming up with ways to make the power weaker.
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That's the thing I never considered her ability as a stealth power at all. Yea outside 25m you can see her while demanifested but even then her phase in and out is just like thee Spirit.
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No stealth killer should have a lullaby. That's 100% survivor hand holding by the devs.
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Watch Tru3 play Wraith.
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I stopped watching Tru3 a while ago, he just complains all the time about everything. But I have seen him play Wraith and nothing about how he plays Wraith invalidates anything I said above.
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Not quite - Wraith's anti-loop isn't brilliant either. Which is why he's low B/high C tier. But he can at least close with stealth, get the first hit, chase, restealth, bodyblock Tru3 style then decloak and attack.
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Idk. I've played her for hours and thought she was a decent killer. Obviously not as strong as some killers but that's ok. I think condemn should be more threatening and maybe the TVs should have a shorter cooldown after teleporting. Either way she's my new main.
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Enjoy, I guess.
To me, Condemn being mostly pointless isn't the only issue. The issue is that she feels like she's balanced around a stealth toolkit she doesn't actually have and also lacks a gap closer.
I'm...okay with a new killer being mid 'B' tier (Cenobite style), but we should be trying to get killers below 'B' tier (making them weak, below average killers) up to snuff - not adding more weak killers.
Another thing I'm noticing is that people have learned to run straight through you while you demanifest or lead you into grass/corn - where she cannot see anything (Blight on release had the same issue).
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Sadako can also close with stealth and get the first hit at least as well as Wraith. In fact she can do it a bit easier because she can continue moving at survivor speed on the approach versus having to stop in place to Manifest.
And yes, bodyblocking before Decloaking is the best way to play Wraith. It doesn’t change the fact though that, even if Wraith is literally touching the survivor when he starts to Decloak, the survivor can gain a ton of distance from him by running the opposite direction. Sure, if the survivor runs the wrong direction after the bodyblock they gain less distance, but if they are paying attention and go the right way the Wraith is a good 8 meters away by the time the Decloak finishes and even with his extra speed can’t make that up.
In comparison, Sadako can run up to a survivor in a chase while Demanifested and Manifest when she is close without losing any perceptible distance. It doesn’t matter what direction the survivor is running, she’s always moving about their speed while Manifesting so she can keep up. She also maintains her on-and-off invisibility and has a lower cross section than Wraith, so if she is Manifesting around a corner of a loop for example the survivor won’t necessarily know which way she is choosing to run around the loop.
Believe me, I know exactly how Tru3 plays Wraith and I know what you mean. Sadako isn’t Wraith and her Demanifest is actually smoother than Decloaking in a chase. If you want to see someone putting on a clinic with her, watch Dowsey playing her in chases.
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