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Otzdarva Shares Opinion On Onryo: 'Below Average, C Tier'.
Comments
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- I'm not sure if I agree with that. They both feel about on par. She can teleport more often, but is entirely reliant on TV spawn logic, which can put them into completely useless places - a floor above the gen, for example, or in a corner of the map facing a wall.
- Freddy also has an anti-loop tool (which she doesn't).
- Wraith's decloak is entirely superior. You can bodyblock (the key to playing Wraith) while Sadako can just be run through. His stealth is reliable, hers is...pointless. He gets a gap closer coming out of stealth which offsets the pause (and can actually be used strategically). Basically: Wraith is almost guaranteed the first hit if he's smart, then has to chase. Sadako has to chase from word one.
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i think you should get your condemnation level reduced only if another survivor takes your tape from the tv
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Hmm. No, I disagree.
Firstly, 'x pro player can succeed with x killer' isn't really proof of that killer being fine. Otz did 50 wins on pre-rework Clown and Trapper without addons. I mentioned Tru3 because he's a good demonstration of Wraith's toolkit being used as an antiloop.
Secondly, let me describe the basic counterplay to both killers, as I think that illustrates my point.
- Wraith: he stealths in, you notice him once he's in vision radius if you're paying attention. He zips to you, bodyblocks you, decloaks and hits you. This first hit is almost impossible to avoid if he's not silly. Then you run to the closest safe loop and it becomes a back and forth - you trying to stay ahead, him trying to get into a position where he can bodyblock you again or decloak on a switchback to hit you. Or, if there is no CoH in play, he gets that first hit then zips off to pressure elsewhere.
- Onryo: you hear her coming either via the lullaby or out of a TV. You move to safety or hide in grass (her tiny size makes it incredibly difficult to spot survivors hidden in grass, a bit like pre-rework Blight). She finds you, demanifests and you run directly through her before she can hit you. She chases, gets a hit and you run to the loop. Now she's a standard M1 killer at a loop, but without any tools to do a reliable mindgame or shorten the distance.
I'm watching Dowsey now. The guy is good, but all he's doing is outplaying people with an M1 killer. He'd be playing very similarly on Trapper for instance.
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I couls be wrong, but to my understanding, he always thought she was not that strong.
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condemn gives little reason to be an issue, so Sadako just becomes a weaker freddy if no survivor get condemned.
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Because people should form their own opinions by playing the killer themselves instead of thinking everything a streamer says it's a fact and shouldn't be debated.
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Arguments from authority should be avoided.
However, when a very balanced, very neutral and extremely experienced player who essentially dissects this game for a living says that something is underpowered, they probably aren't wrong.
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- TVs being in bad places is definitely a corner case, as a rule they’re in useful spots.
- I already said Freddy is better at loops. We’re talking about his teleport though versus hers, and hers is better.
- Wraith’s extra speed coming out of stealth does not “offset” the pause if the survivor runs away from Wraith during the Decloak. If the survivor moves away from him then they gain much more distance than the extra speed offsets. Bodyblocking helps in that it can confuse the survivor but if the survivor is paying attention they can gain distance almost 100% of the time. And survivors can see Wraith on approach, he’s not literally invisible, so he has to rely on cover like Sadako to keep from being seen assuming survivors are paying attention to their surroundings.
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Just because someone plays the game for a living doesn't mean everything they say it's correct.
5,287 on record here, I have more hours than some streamers who play DBD for a living.
It's much more engaging to debate if a killer is overpowered/underpowered than listening to someone and be a sheep and having no formed opinion on your own.
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I think shes low C or high D tier. Genuinely weak. The condemned mechanic is neither threatening nor a game delay. I've had survivor games where I never use a tape.
I don't think a killer can have zero chase power for both health states. It's one thing for Legion to get a free first hit and then nothing after. Sadako has nothing, period. Intermittent visibility is not a chase tool in high level play. She struggles against survivors who drop pallets
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Yes, I'm agreeing with you - partially. But I'm also saying that when someone who has the experience and knowledge to be right in most cases (which I think does apply to Otz) then they are likely to be right in other cases.
Their word isn't gospel, but it does carry weight.
And I've also debated her toolkit in this thread, specifically.
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Trapper doesn’t teleport and get survivors confused with invisibility, so it’s more than just that.
Also exactly how is “running directly through Sadako” preventing her from being close enough to hit you?
Finally I never said she’s “good because pro player is good with her”, I said she’s overall better than Wraith in a chase because of how her Demanifesting works compared to his Decloaking and said that Dowsey seems to be someone who is playing her correctly as an example.
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In chase? It's not far off. Watching a few Dowsey games now, unless there's a TV in a very good location he's basically just playing an M1 killer. His manifest/demanifest stuff feels more like a reflex - it doesn't really seem to do much in chase unless he's using specific addons.
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How dare you? This is blasphemy! Why should we use our own brains when smarter famous streamers will do it for us?
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I think the Invisibility in chase effect is subtle, it would be hard to distinguish at a glance when a survivor misplayed because they legitimately couldn’t see which say she went versus simply wasn’t paying attention. To really tell you’d probably want to do a more statistical look at his chases with Sadako versus with, say, Trapper and see how often the mind games work on both to tell the boost she gets from it versus having no ability.
P.S. personally I think Sadako is better than Wraith but not by a huge margin, so we’re not probably all that far apart in where we’d rank them both. My guess is Wraith is 2 out of 5 stars as a killer, and Sadako is 2 1/2 to 3 stars.
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I think he's wrong. From what I've played of her, I've done very well, and I've managed to get moris pretty consistently. Condemn is only non-threatening if you don't apply pressure properly. She's a very solid killer with a lot going for her.
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I agree.
I honestly think people are just playing her wrong. She has an insane amount of map pressure.
I had a player yesterday that was chasing me one second and the next downing someone on the other side of the map.
She basically has something that other M1 killers don’t.
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Elaborate?
Hmm. Yeah, I'm not seeing how she is better than Wraith. Wraith has more map presence, more mindgame ability, more reliable mobility, more reliable stealth. I'm actually struggling to think of any area where she outclasses Wraith - maybe her traversal is slightly better on enormous maps, but that's going to be close due to the fact that his is less prone to RNG uselessness.
And Wraith isn't a good killer, at all.
I'm not sure I'll do a statistical analysis, but I'm watching Otz play her now and contrasting his Trapper chases while in loop, and they are very, very similar. Trapper can occasionally use/fake a trap mid chase for mindgames and she can occasionally get lucky and have RNG give her a TV to use mid chase (and have the survivor not anticipate the teleport) but broadly they are just bog-standard M1 killers.
Mm. I'm not seeing it.
Maybe there's some wrinkle in her kit that nobody has discovered yet, at best making her B tier (I doubt it), but while she can occasionally pressure people far away with teleports:
- This relies on pure RNG not to put the TV facing a wall, or on a different floor.
- This relies on survivors not responding to her teleport correctly. I'm seeing more people blind me the second I come out of the TV (completely unavoidable) or just leg it to a safe loop. The speed boost you get is occasionally enough to get a single hit, but nowhere near as reliably as say, Wraith can do this.
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Who would have thought that a killer with 0 chase potential would be C tier? What a surprise..
Teleporting around the map isn't useful if survivors hear your coming out of the TV a mile away and just run away. Let alone sprint burst, spine chill, etc. Survivors can just run and be safe, in a chase her "flicker" does nothing.
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That sounds like a good reason to save money on this chapter. Especially considering the stronger licensed killers available like PH, Neme, Ceno, Bubba and Demopup (r.i.p.)
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Mm. I said something to this effect in my Steam review. Basically - if you want a sneaky killer, Ghostface is a better investment. If you want a Japanese themed 'ghost' killer, Spirit is a better investment. Or just play Wraith.
As things stand, the only thing she has on her side is novelty and being iconic. I'll bet that in a month you'll see her about as often as you see Twins, if the developers don't give her some serious attention.
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I don’t see how Wraith has more mindgamability in a chase. He’s literally completely visible while Decloaked. It’s not even clear he’s harder to spot coming up on people before a chase starts because he’s taller than Sadako and still visible. I think her stealth is actually better.
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Watch Tru3 play her, or even Otz these days.
Basically, they try to do one of two things.
- Go into cloak and use it to move ahead of the running survivor, to bodyblock a window/pallet, decloak and hit them with the dash.
- Go into cloak, decloaking on the other side of a wall, then using it to mindgame the survivor by outpacing the drop/vault or coming from the wrong side. At worst, it's a 50/50.
On the other hand, watching Otz and Dowsey play her, going into demat in chases feels like more of a reflex than something that's having an effect. Survivors don't seem to path differently at all, they're treating her as if they are fully visible. Most hits are at switchbacks or vaults, same as any other M1 killer - the survivors aren't making unusual mistakes for the most part (and when they do, it looks like it's more due to her size causing them to underestimate the range on her lunge).
The height is both a blessing and a curse - she's harder to see, but she also can't see over a lot of things. It comes out at a wash.
Stealth...I'm not sure how. Wraith has a slowdown while emerging, but a dash after (and can bodyblock). Sadako has no slowdown, but can be pathed through and no dash (pretty even, probably leaning slightly towards Wraith).
Wraith's is more reliable even factoring in the shimmer, because it's a true undetectable (Sadako has a silly lullaby that gives her proximity away) and gives him enormous speed on demand.
Her phasing is about all she has, and it's pretty unreliable. Without addons, it's not hard for me to tell exactly where she is and what she's doing, maybe 4 times in 5. The fifth time I can mostly attribute to my own mistakes.
Her teleports are her other big selling point, but the TV spawn logic is so RNG that it can be entirely useless.
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- Bodyblocking is a good technique but it isn’t a “mindgame”. Neither is ambushing someone from the other side of a wall pre-chase. (And again, I’ve watched a lot of Tru3 play Wraith, I do know what you’re referring to. It’s how I play Wraith too.)
- Shorter Height is objectively an advantage in terms of stealth. It’s not a “wash” with anything, being shorter makes it harder for people to see you. You wouldn’t say “Wraith has trouble seeing the person on the other side of the wall while he Decloaks so it’s a wash” for example.
- Wraith’s slowdown is so slow that his lunge doesn’t make up the distance if the person runs away while he Decloaks. Bodyblocking works when survivors get confused and don’t run away, but when they aren’t confused and do run Wraith is about 8 meters away from them by the time he finishes uncloaking and only catches up maybe 3 meters of that during the initial burst of speed he gets after which he needs to catch up 5 meters at 0.6 m/s. In comparison Sadako loses no distance while Manifesting and then continues catching up at 0.6 m/s after Manifested, so she stays much closer to the survivor even when they run away. (And running through her doesn’t gain distance on her, it just maybe confuses the killer momentarily like a juke would.)
- TV spawns aren’t so random that RNG is a major factor. I haven’t yet had a match where I couldn’t teleport roughly where I wanted.
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I'm reserving judgment until I have the information perks I have on her but, so far, she feels, in my opinion, a bit better than Wraith or Freddy but still on the weak side overall.
I like her chase and teleport a little bit more than Wraith and Freddy but not a lot more.
Her Condemned power feels like it's a non-factor both playing as and against her. The best way to avoid it seems to be just ignore the TVs. When she teleports through it she's visible and has a sound effect so as soon as I hear it, when playing survivor, I just start running to a tile. As soon as she gives up chase or moves somewhere else I run back to the gen. So far, I haven't had to touch a tape at all.
The shorter time to Manifest from PTB feels smooth and is a good first step. I think she'd be unplayable with the PTB Manifest time.
She's spooky so I really like that but, so far, she doesn't feel threatening.
It's too soon to say as people are still getting strategies as or against her but, so far, I'm leaning to her Condemned mechanic needs a buff (such as maybe a slow passive build-up irregardless of holding a tape or within the vincinity of a TV so survivors have to touch a VHS tape at least once during a match).
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- To me, that's what a mindgame is. Predicting what a survivor will do, or foxing them into doing something and capitalizing. Isn't it?
- Yes, but Wraith can see people on the other side of the wall XD. What I'm referring to though is maps with a lot of grass/corn, where it can be difficult to see anything on Onryo.
- I'm not sure if that's true, numerically speaking.
- Wait till you get RPD, Lery's or Swamp. These are the three I've had with really wonky TV spawns.
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Hag exists lol
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- The context I've been talking about has been chases, where mindgame has a more specific meaning.
- Sadako having trouble seeing over grass isn't really a problem with stealth though. In terms of her stealthiness, i.e. how hard it is for survivors to detect her, her height is an objective advantage.
- For reference, Wraith moves at only 1.6 m/s while uncloaking and it takes him 3 seconds to uncloak (ignoring add-ons for simplicity). So during the uncloak the survivor can run away at 4 m/s, gaining 2.4 m/s distance per second for 3 seconds for a total of 7.2 meters. He then moves 6.9 m/s (lunge speed) for 1 second, gaining back 2.9 meters which leaves him still behind up to 4.3 meters. He then has to catch up at 0.6 m/s which takes him an additional 7.2 seconds. So all in all, if he runs up to a survivor and touches them (as in a bodyblock) and then starts to uncloak, if the survivor runs away they can gain an additional 8.2 total seconds in the chase before he can catch back up again. That's over 32 additional meters of distance at survivor speed, up to 1/3 of a typical map.
- Now let's run the same exercise with Sadako. Say for the sake of argument she starts Demanifested touching a survivor. (She's probably ideally start Manifesting sooner than that but we'll start her in the same spot for argument's sake.) Her Manifesting speed is 3.68 m/s and it takes her 1.5 seconds to Manifest (so she phases back in twice as fast as Wraith and moves more than twice as fast while doing it). For those 1.5 seconds the survivor gains 0.32 m/s for a total distance of only 0.48 meters. At that point she resume moving her normal 4.6 m/s and makes up that 0.48 meters in less than 1 second.
- I already played on RPD and Lery's and had no issues with the TVs in those. (In fact I think I got a 4k on both? I'm not sure.)
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Hard disagree on the freddy teleport, the only thing her teleport does better is potentially snuff a boon totem IF you know where it is. Freddys teleport takes you to gens, which is hwere you need to be, if the gen is completed you no longer should be spending time in that area. On top of that she has a lengthy animation after doing a teleport where she doesn't move instead of being able to move instantly like freddy. Yes she doesn't have to channel it like freddy but freddy does not slow down when he channels it and also can cancel it and that can be used to your advantage as a result, such as to fake it. Her teleport audio is also much louder than the blood splash of freddys teleport making it much harder to use in chase.
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You're off on a few things:
- Sadako's animation takes exactly as long as Freddy's charge time on the teleport (3 seconds). So that "lengthy animation" is the same amount of time it takes for Freddy to actually teleport.
- Also "you want to teleport to the gens" isn't quite right - you want to teleport to the survivors. A lot of the times they're at gens, but not always, and sometimes you want to teleport somewhere else if you know there's a survivor nearby you can hopefully down quickly.
- And on top of all that Freddy has a 45 second cooldown between teleports. He simply can't teleport as often on a moment's notice as Sadako (and he can't teleport at all once all the gens are done)
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1) Freddy can cancel his though
2) If you're teleporting to survivors who aren't on gens, you are going to lose. You're an m1 killer. Not the nurse. You can't just win off raw chases against remotely decent survivors
3) In the CoH meta the only benefit you get off of sadakos back to back teleports is checking a generator to see if its being worked before quickly going elsewhere. If you are teleporting often you will lose because you are either not getting chases or you are dropping your chases to go elsewhere which is lose by default if CoH is in play. Additionally each TV has a much higher cooldown than an individual teleport, While having map presense everywhere sounds good. Its much stronger to be better at defending a hot spot. Map presensce everywhere means dealing with pallets everywhere and never getting deadzones. You are an m1 killer. You will lose if that happens
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I played a couple of games as survivor against her, since I didn't buy her, and I have to say:
Why is her condemn mechanic so weak? I barely had to care about it in the games I played.
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I mean I agree, but at the same time Otz's opinions aren't law and he has plenty of suspect and bizarre tier placements such as considering Freddy one of the worst killers, and seeming to always believe Legion is upper C to mid tier despite no one else on Earth feeling that way.
Also one of the issue with condemn is that you have to go to a survivor and win a chase against them once their are condemned, and they can also remove said condemn. A survivor can get condemned and then run off and clear it if you don't go over there and win a chase immediately. I've already had survivors flat out intentionally get condemned because they 1. Figured I'd want to try and get the kill and 2. Figured they could waste a lot of my time looping me if I got tunnel visioned into "I MUST GET THIS DOWN FOR THE MORI" while gens pop around me. And if you don't go for the mori immediately, you lose the chance entirely. If you compare this to say, Pig traps, Pig doesn't need to do anything. If the trap goes off, you die. She doesn't need to walk on over and down you. Condemn rarely ever happens and even on the rare case it does, it still doesn't mean you're going to get a kill from it unless you decide that it's worth it to drop everything and solely focus on chasing one guy regardless of how long it takes. So it rarely activates and even when it does, it's still not a guarantee it'll do anything at all.
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I think she's at the very most on a lower B or high C. She does have legitimate strengths but her whole issue really boils down to the abudance of medkits, healing perks and CoH. Taking advantage of the tvs and teleporting around a lot really does work on her because of how unpredictable you are but you need the perks back it up. Stuff like Sloppy helps but I'd say she's definitely perk dependant.
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- I didn't say Freddy couldn't cancel his teleports. I was correcting you when you implied that Sadako's animation was somehow too long when it's actually the same length as Freddy's charge to teleport.
- If you are teleporting -randomly- to survivors who aren't on gens then it's probably not a good idea. But there are times where you can, for instance, teleport to someone who you have an aura for at a distance and know is injured and get a quick down. Then teleport back to a gen afterward.
- If Freddy teleports and there's no survivor there he's out of luck. If Sadako teleports and there's nobody there she just teleports somewhere else immediately. And Freddy can't teleport to the same generator multiple times any more than Sadako can teleport to the same TV multiple times. But the difference is Sadako can teleport between two or three or four TVs fairly frequently to help patrol them, something Freddy's teleport can't do. (He can bluff teleporting to a generator but he can't actually go there two or three times if necessary.)
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Sadako is designed to be a hit and run killer. She would be good with that if there wasnt one thing that behaviour completely forgot about when they made her like this.... COH!
I'd love to play her like she's designed. Attack teleport find someone else attack teleport you know but you do this you hear boons going left and right and everyones healed.
Behaviour if you want to make hit and run playstyle valid again you need to do something about CoH or boons in general.
Also one thing you could do to Sadako is to make people being exposed if they have max stacks of condemn. It happens so rarely why not make it high risk. Ive had chases where i run after someone who has max condemn stacks, i hit them once and they run to their tv and poof 1 second the moriable effect is gone. If survivors miss manage the stacks they should be punished for it..now it feels really really weak.
edit: typos
Post edited by Hannacia on0 -
Freddy is nothing more than M1 killer with weak anti-loop and a teleport, he is surely one of worst killers akin to legion.
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She's the most polarizing killer since Trickster. Her design is garbage. She can only ever be overpowered or underpowered. So where to put her on the tier list? Who knows?
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Sorry, I can't take opinions like that very seriously, but anyone is welcome to have it. I just find it so wrong that I don't even care to bother arguing it.
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She's an awful killer. No debate.
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And then you get survivors that turn your tv's off... Now you get to walk there.
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I think she's fun to play against for sure. Her phasing mechanic is really fun during chase because it makes her mind gaming strong. Feels a bit like playing against spirit.
I do think she is a bit weak. But at the same time, I've played against some that have started to put together some pretty nifty tactics that have steamrolled some of the solo Q games I've been in. I've noticed that Devour Hope is really common to run on her(i'm assuming because of the teleport). The problem there though is that eventually survivors will catch on and watch out for totems after first hook. It will still probably be super effective against solo Q, but SWF would smash it out pretty quick.
Another thing I've seen them do is(I don't want to say "abuse" , but kinda) the teleporting TV mechanic to build up condemn super quickly and keep pressure on gens, pretty much forcing people to grab tapes and have to drop them off quickly. I've also seen them use this during chase, just injure the survivor and zone them near tvs, teleport then down them and mori immediately taking someone out of the game in the first few minutes.
I think people are still figuring out how to play her. One thing I like though is that she is far more popular than when The Artist released. I think this really speaks to how boring the artist actually is. Even though she's easily A tier, people just don't like playing her. Honestly, I hate playing against her.
I think we need to wait a little bit for people to get the grasp of her using different builds and tactics then make tweaks from there. I can say for certain though that I thoroughly enjoy her chases.
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I find her to be rather similar to MoM, Trickster and Legion, actually. Not quite in the same tier, but still in the category of "extremely powerful effect".
Allow me to explain. Trickster, Legion and MoM all offer very powerful (or potentially powerful) abilities. Being able to Mori someone without hooking them once is exceedingly powerful and as such, must be balanced appropriately. I feel that this puts Sadako in a very tricky spot balance-wise. She is undeniably weak, but I don't think we'll see any changes to Condemned due to the above reasons.
I'd rather they give her something to help in chase. She's horrid in chase, better than maybe Legion.
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Condemned is basically a joke mechanic unless you run Telephone + Ring Drawing and even then ring drawing is mostly countered just by using COH since it's just you self cared
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She is an m1 killer. M1 killer rely on survivor looping mistakes.
"As things stand, the only thing she has on her side is novelty and being iconic. I'll bet that in a month you'll see her about as often as you see Twins, if the developers don't give her some serious attention."
Sounds like a large majority of killers. She is just following Status quo. People play her a bunch. unlock her perks, realize she sucks, go back to their mains.
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If condemnation had a timer where eventually survivors would be fully condemned once Sadako has inflicted condemnation on them, it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is there's no urgency to it. Majority of the build is up to the survivors interacting with tvs to gain it. And as we've seen since Plague's chapters. If survivors can completely deny a killer's power they will.
Now Pig has issues and she's still a weak killer, but she has pretty effective slowdown rng pending since survivors can't just do gens first and then deal with the trap on their head without the real possibility of dying to the trap.
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A) Stealth Killer with a lullaby (what were they smoking?)
B) Tvs can be turned off (power = toilet).
C) No chase or loop power (for real).
D) Condemned.... (less than useless. Most pointless gimmick in all DBD).
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Believe it or not, most of other m1 killers have much better power.
So I can't take opinions like that very seriously, but anyone is welcome to have it.
I just find it so wrong that I don't even care to bother arguing it.
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She should get fixed.
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