Scourge hooks should be on all hooks
I've had to stop using them. They're like hexes but worse. You can't use them if they're in bad spots, but at least with hexes the survivors actually have to cleanse them for you to not get to use your perk. Scourge Hooks perks are a complete waste a lot of the time. You'll get 0-1 uses of them the entire match. So why not just put them on all hooks? Why only 4 and always with bad RNG?
Give me an actual counterargument. The effects of scourge hook perks are never THAT strong, so that's not an issue. People say scourge hook perks encourage killers to camp because they're only in certain areas, so putting them everywhere would only discourage camping. And I've said this before and I'll say it again: It you're against scourge hooks on all hooks, you're saying that the killer should only be able to use their perk sometimes, not all the time, even though they've equipped the perk and put the work in. And if your reasoning isn't that, then what is it?
I really think scourge hooks on all hooks would be a healthy change for the game. It wouldn't be OP at low levels because the killer probably isn't good either. It wouldn't be OP against any survivors that are good. It wouldn't even benefit the killers at the highest level in which gen scourge hook perks are meme tier anyway. It would just help those middle ground killers have an actual useful perk instead of humoring something that isn't gonna get them any wins. And who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, and scourge hooks on all hooks would make those perks viable?
Comments
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I wouldn’t mind a minimum distance between the scourge hooks (that should be a given), but for me it’s a no to making all hooks become scourge hooks. That’s kinda the whole theme of the set of perks - hooks that stand out from the rest. They could also make additional scourge hooks spawn. Maybe a couple more at base, and/or for each scourge hook perk you have equipped.
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I think they just need to tweak the spawns a bit so they can’t all be next to each other on one side of the map and the other half has nothing. Gift of Pain also needs a buff.
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I think dev do think they're that strong and game-changing hence 4 limit. can't have killers getting a mini pop goes weasel reward per hook. can we? they could increase amount from 4->6. that would help. they feel like rework to hexes and obsession perks to reduce RNG only to re-add rng through hook spawns. At least perk does not disappear from entire game, silver lining.
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They need to have a minium amount of distance, and for larger maps more of them should be scourge hooks.
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True really I sometimes have no chance getting to one even when using carrying perks.
I don't expect every hook to be one but sometimes I get none per match.
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I agree with you. Sometimes I barely get any value from these perks.
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Another thread has discussed the possibility of buffing Monstrous Shrine so that the basement hooks can also act as Scourge Hooks.
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I might sound like a survivor main but that’s a terrible idea. This would promote an unhealthy amount of camping. Let’s say you run Pain resonance(be honest it’s the best one). You can camp the one hook and always get value out of it that’s not fun to deal with. Also does Basement become scourge hooks
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That's the idea, yeah. Along with the four in the trial the basement hooks also act as Scourge Hooks.
I've personally wondered if this might be too powerful, yet it seems a fairly buff to Monstrous Shrine.
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Pain Resonance is one of the best killer perks in the game right now, and Floods of Rage is really good too, it's only really Gift of Pain that's underwhelming.
The fact that you either have to spend extra time getting to a Scourge Hook or you're not always able to reach a Scourge Hook is what allows them to have stronger effects. Also, wouldn't making every hook a Scourge Hook delete the perk type?
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I personally think Monstrous shrine should become a scourge hook perk and make all 4 basement hooks become scourge hooks
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That's the idea, yeah. Thinking about the possibility of that being too strong, a couple ideas I had to mitigate:
Each basement hook can act as a Scourge Hook once, so instead of four more Scourge hooks you get four one-shot Scourge Hooks.
Every time a basement hook is in use a Scourge Hook on the field deactivates until the survivor is saved or sacrificed, at which point it reactivates. So you still have four Scourge Hooks, but using one in the basement may stop you being able to use one in the field.
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Maybe a way to make these a little more consistent would be to add a minimum distance that they can spawn in relation to each other and maybe to make all of the basement's hooks Scourge Hooks.
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I still think instead a good change to scourge hooks would be to not have them spawn in but have the first 4 unique hooks you use (not basement hooks) become scourge hooks and proc their effects on the hooked survivor.
Now you get some choice in the hook location and can try your best to make the best use of them as well as guaranteed usage for your first 4 unique hook locations
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They don't have to stand out from the rest on the map. They can stand out from the rest between matches, since some matches will have scourge hooks and some won't.
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It does if you sacrifice someone on the hook.
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But people say that if we make basement hooks scourge hooks, "It will encourage campin'!" Not if all hooks are scourge hooks anyway.
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How would it promote camping? You've got the perk on; you should get to use it. If all hooks are scourge hooks, how does that make the nature of scourge hooks more campier (allegedly) than they are right now? Sure, you'll get value off the first scourge hook, but as long as people aren't giving the killer free hook trades all match, in which case they lose anyway, there's no reason for the killer to get as much value as you're making it seem like.
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Scourge hooks cannot be the best perks in the game under any circumstances right now, not only because there's only 4 of them so their placement can screw you out of using them, but also they're really not that strong. Survivors who give the killer's constant hooks make Pain Resonance seem strong, and it only gives a portion of Pop's Regression, just with no walking time. Against better teams, you're lucky to get 5 hooks before the gens are done. Unless you think we should be balancing around worse players.
And you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying we should make scourge hooks basekit. I'm saying when you equip a scourge hook perk, all the hooks on the map should change into them. It wouldn't get rid of the perk type.
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There's no reason to make any further limits on scourge hooks. You are quite literally appeasing survivor mains.
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The same problem arises here as in the "hooks getting permanently destroyed from a sacrifice" issue. You can't control where survivors are gonna go down, so with your idea, they have majority control over where your scourge hooks are gonna be, and that could all be on one side of the map once again. And with that we'd come full circle.
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Yes, that would make them more consistent, but that's not going far enough. I'm assuming you want to tweak the spawns so that killers can actually use their perk, right? Why, then, can't they just be on all the hooks? It achieves the same result. If that's OP, how exactly?
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I believe the 4 scourge hooks are enough. At least until there are changes that make the DMS + PR combo less oppressive (with certain killers it's already too easy to zone the survivor close to them - scourge hooks-, but if you use agitation then, even easier)
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Well there's a difference between lessening the RNG aspect of it and making it usable all the time. The perks aren't designed to be able to be used after every hook, that's why there are only 4 scourge hooks (and if it did work on every hook, then there'd be no point in the scourge hook mechanic anyway, you could just say "After every unhook see the auras of all other survivors for 7 seconds"). Gift of Pain might be fine if it worked on every hook because right now that perk is weak, but it'd make the others a bit too strong imo.
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That combo isn't oppressive. I can't remember killer ever having an oppressive perk combo actually.
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Ok… this is where I say:
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I don't like the idea of Pain Res + DMS applying to every single hook.
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If the perk's design is that self-defeating, that it's only supposed to be used some of the time, then it's our job to improve the perk don't you think? And I don't think it would make them too strong. The strongest scourge hook is Pain Resonance, but it's a reverse power creep of Pop in every way, with the exception of it being combo'd with Dead Man's Switch. And even then, that combo is easily countered. The survivors can just let go of the gen before the killer hooks, and if they come then it gets blocked, but that's just one gen at that point, which isn't regressing, and doesn't mean 1-2 survivors aren't working on other gens. The survivors really have to give the killer lots of hooks and fall for the scream blockage multiple times for the combo to be worth it.
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In other words, you don't have anything to say why I'm wrong.
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Why not? You think the killer's gonna get max value on it every time? Blocked gens, which Dead Man's Switch creates, don't even get hit by Pain Resonance. Pain Resonance has exactly the same problem with Pop where the gen gets done before you can regress it, and then you're forced to use it on a gen that's at 2% done. And you're not even pulling off the combo multiple times in a match, unless the survivors just keep on and keep on giving you hooks quick and easy. If you play killer, you're well aware that killer gets nothing in the base game for hooking survivors, not until they're dead. So why is it that any time a decent perk combo comes up, that encourages and rewards multiple chases and multiple hooks, nobody likes the idea?
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your reading into survivor main mentality too much. They want killers to go for many hooks but lose the game regardless of how well the killer played chases and disregarding their gameplay in the chases. after that, you have survivor complaining about "why u tunnel mr killer main?".
this perk not first combo either to reward killers players for winning chases/getting hits.
sloppy butcher+thanotophobia was first, nobody uses it though besides freddy until they erased him and both perks.
old ruin+pop goes weasel was second
undying+new ruin was third
franklin+hoarder was pinhead special
pain resonance+dms is new one.
their track record shows that they mostly erase killer perks that reward hooking. For me, it has personally developed a use it till you lose it mentality with the game.
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Yeah. The fact that they call perks like Pain Resonance, Dead Man's Switch, Ruin, Undying "oppressive" is just wrong. They're not miracle-working perks for the killer. What happens every time I try to humor gen regression like that is I win a few matches, maybe even a dozen, but then my MMR is high and I face unwinnable team after unwinnable team, because the perks I equipped aren't doing anything. I had gotten so used to survivors just giving me downs and hooks for regression, that when I'm not getting that constantly, I lose the game in 5 minutes. Then it's back to Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out, so that I at least have a chance to play normal, because regression is never guaranteed, but blockage is. That's why it's the true meta of this game, not the off-brand gen regression/info perk "well rounded build" fake meta that only works on noobs. I try to suggest gen regression buffs, so that it might one day be viable too, but you see how that turns out.
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