Camaraderie anti face-camping perk

The survivor range should be slightly bigger than the killer range. Like killer within 16 and canceled if a survivor is within 20 or 24.

But this could be a decent idea otherwise.

I'd prefer if camaradirier kept its current effect, but automatically triggered when you're about to stage on the hook and also gave other survivors an indication you have it. Something like your aura appears yellow instead of red when you're on the hook and have this perk equipped.

I don't think you're insane but I don't think it's a good idea.

Yet gens fly in seconds. My be alright if the rest of the game was balanced accordingly. It's a long way off.

Just make it so the perk works both for yourself on 2nd state and for others on 2nd state. This way it's less situational and leans more towards Camaraderie where you are working together with other survivors to keep each other alive. Kindred got this treatment a while back and it went from a perk no one really ran to a solid perk you'll often enough.

Plus I don't think this rework is really a good idea. Most people aren't going to want to stay on hook longer to counter camping. A lot of survivors already just let themselves die on hook if being camp so they can move on to a different game.

So basically, it put the killer in a lose-lose situation and actually made camping worse for the one being camped. I'll try to explain best I can.

Survivor A is on hook, survivor B will be around the hook, survivor C and D will be on gens. So as soon as the killer hooks, survivor B would be close enough that they can contest the save and the killer can see them, but not close enough to be an easy hit. The killer now either leaves the hook to chase, or tries to defend against the save.

If he chases, well that's an easy save for another survivor since they'll be away from the hook. If he stays the hook timer will be paused and the gens are still rolling. Survivor C and D have no pressure to go since the timer was paused, so they could work on gens freely until the situation changed. If the killer started to head in the direction of B but then turned around, well the timer would just pause again so B would just went back again as well and we're back to square 1. Survivors B, C, and D had no problem letting survivor A stay on hook the entire game so they could get the gens done free of pressure and get out. Maybe they'd go back during endgame to get A, and now the killer has 1 hook and that's it. Pretty much guaranteed 4E.

IIRC you could also loop around the general area of the hook and the timer would be paused the entire time as there either were no rules in place for the survivors position, just the killer, or it was less restrictive. Just to add to the shenanigans.

Survivor A was having an even worse time not being able to interact with the game for even longer, and the killer couldn't feasibly win because if they contested unhooks they got punished and obviously letting people get free saves isn't good either.

The lesson from the test was if you punish killers for camping, survivors will force that punishment to their advantage in any way they can. If you make the timer take longer, well that's just more gen time before we have to worry about the unhook and more time survivor A can't interact with the game. The alternative, to reward killers for not camping with some kind of buff or something, would be a much better system. Hence why there's killer perks that specifically require you to be away from the hooked survivor. We just need something basekit that's substantial enough to make not camping a much stronger option.

"Once the killer sees that Camaraderie is activated"

If they know its in play sure, killers don't get told what perks the survivor has unless it affect them directly, like a DS stun. This affects the survivors timer, not the killer. Most players won't even notice or by the time they do it'll be to late to change anything.

"'hey - if I sit around, I'm wasting my time, and the survivors are going to win the game anyway.'"

Right, and give another survivor on a nearby gen an easy save immediately. Bad for the killer regardless. Both options are bad Like I said.

" the killer only needs to step out of a 16 meter radius to counter this perk"

Then the perk is useless and killers will just camp from 16 meters now, defeating the point. You make the 16 bigger, well now the killer cant contest saves because they're too far, survivors get free unhooks.

"The situation, as you described it, should never have been a face-camping situation."

Well it was, sorry to tell you. You can't give survivors more time on gens. Other solutions have the potential to work, not that one. You're rewarding the survivors by letting their teammate get camped, defeating the point of trying to save them.

" Face-camping in these situations is the absolute worst idea regardless"

Yup, and giving a free save is also a bad idea, again they were both bad options. You're putting the killer in a lose-lose.

1.) Yes I mentioned those perks that reward not camping. Al those perks you mentioned are exactly the problem perks that many complain about. they're there to fix problems that should be fixed at base on both sides. Survivors are tired of running them, killer's are tired of getting punished for playing the efficient way when the alternative, 12 hook games, are just asking to lose. Make the reward for not camping make 12 hook games viable, your change doesn't do that at all you're just nerfing killers when we need to go the other direction.

"Your job as a survivor is not to give positive reinforcement to the killer - it is your job to threaten them with powerful perks until they learn the right way."

Well both of those aren't the survivors job. I don't think the role labeled "survivor" should be threatening the one called "killer" lol. Its the devs job to push the killers in a more positive direction, not the players.

2.) Yes camaraderie does but its also restricted to only the struggle phase and its actually run in tournament play for the very reason I mentioned, more time on gens. It doesn't need to and shouldn't be stronger. DS does make you get tunneled longer, people do take it to help their own chances of survival sure, but at least you get to interact with the game with it. BT's mend is a lot shorter than spending 60 seconds on a hook for a hook state, so its the better option. Unbreakable is better than sitting on the floor. These are all meta perks and commonly complained about such as "the survivors have too many second chances", which is true imo.

3.) Yes players who want to facecamp no matter what will do so, but this change will not change that either. What we can change is the players who camp just because its effective, by making it no longer a better strategy than trying to hook everybody 3 times. As I said "We just need something basekit that's substantial enough to make not camping a much stronger option." this doesn't do that, it just makes camping weaker. Killers will just lose more and survivor ques will get even worse than they already are.

While you are right that this change will entice players away by punishing them, those weren't my words, the transcript is right there.

"reward killers for not camping with some kind of buff" not "punish killers for camping with a nerf". Both are enticements, both are very different directions to go in.

I mean if you just want to nerf killer's across the board then sure, this would be a great change. I don't think that's a good idea, but its your proposal not mine.

1. No I play both sides, this wont do anything but make things worse. Its already been proven. But I'm starting to understand you're a survivor main and have no regards to killers at all.
2. You clearly have no reading comprehension.
3. I don't camp period, including proxy camp because its boring af. But sure, go to personal insults because you're arguments are trash.

You've already been proven wrong by irl events, not some on paper shenanigans. I already won this argument before it began, you're just in denial at this point. Stay ignorant then 🤷

They're never going to implement this system because it's been proven trash. That's all there is to it, period.

Keep ignoring reality bub.

This thread has been quite the journey. But ignoring all the mess, I like the idea very much. Maybe a tweak or two on numbers could do it well, but that's not for me to decide.

It's overall a good idea and would certainly help against camping killers.

However... You don't face camping killers that often. And if you do, that's some severe bad luck on your part. Most games where the killer is aware that camping won't lead to more than one kill will result in no camp situations and a wasted perk slot. That wouldn't be a good perk design, if you need to consider this scenario to have the perk take effect, then no survivor is going to use it anyway.

Camping is mostly seen in end game situations where the killer has no choice but to stand by the hook or risk not getting at least that one kill. This perk would help in that case, sure, but it wouldn't be as consistent as to encourage survivors to use this new version of the perk during the games that it'd matter most.

Facecamping is a real issue. And it requires a real solution rather than a perk bandaid like the devs are known to do with several issues.

tl;dr: I like the perk, but camping on first hook should be a problem the Devs should handle through game design rather than expect their players to run one of their four perks.

Those are crazy numbers, but otherwise I think it would be ok as a perk. I originally wrote a long response because I thought you wanted it as a game mechanic. I'm old and don't pay attention.

To give a perspective, a killer can can change basement hook speed like 3%. Messing with hook speed is a big deal, it would have to be way smaller.

20% would be a minute, essentially an entire extra hook state, almost a whole gen. I feel like that would be punishing enough to get value out of the perk. It's ok if something is potentially game-changing, but you can't make it definitely game-changing. That's the problem with CoH.