Camaraderie anti face-camping perk
Camaraderie is kind of a strange perk choice that is niche to a fault, as it requires strict teamwork and has questionable viability in many circumstances.
However, everyone HATES being face camped.
Would it be better if Camaraderie had the following effect:
(Due to popular demand, the perk has been slightly changed)
While on the hook, if the killer is closer than 16 meters and there are no other survivors within 24 meters, after an 8 second delay Entity progress is reduced by 40/60/80%
The killer is made aware of this perk's presence once it is activated.
Camaraderie anti face-camping perk 33 votes
11 votes
![[Deleted User]](https://forums.bhvr.com/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
9 votes
9 votes
4 votes
Comments
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The survivor range should be slightly bigger than the killer range. Like killer within 16 and canceled if a survivor is within 20 or 24.
But this could be a decent idea otherwise.
I'd prefer if camaradirier kept its current effect, but automatically triggered when you're about to stage on the hook and also gave other survivors an indication you have it. Something like your aura appears yellow instead of red when you're on the hook and have this perk equipped.
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I have a better suggestion: (Comment below!)
If the killer remains within 16 meters of a hooked survivor for a total of 30 seconds, unhooking won't be interrupted and both unhooker and unhooked survivor will be protected by endurance.
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Are you insane?
I don't think you're insane but I don't think it's a good idea.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
It's perfect. Why not? If you want to camp then assume the risk wasting survivor's time and also the killer's time. If I can't play because I'm facecamped then stay with me longer, bubba.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
Thanks!
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why it's a lame idea though.
I love these discussions :)
If the unhooking survivor is interrupted - they really won't need Endurance, in many cases, as interruptions are either self inflicted to bait out a hit - or the unhooked is grabbed, which circumvents this.
Upon this, Borrowed Time is a top meta perk. By echoing its effects, this becomes a bit redundant,
I do like the idea of an opposite borrowed time, though - the person who unhooks you gets Endurance for an extended period. Yes!
Not a bad suggestion! I can see that being a point.
You really want survivors to stay away for this perk to find value - and you want to make sure they know about this.
Maybe by having an icon in the lower corner of survivor's screens when you are hooked - show a yellow aura when they are within this radius.
Also, this should display on the killer's screen so that they know "Hey, you may want to NOT face camp me or things are going to get very unpleasant for you very quickly.
Thanks!
I feel that this is probably the most eloquent solution to a very ugly problem.
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Eh. Whatever.
It would still be mediocre and very situational.
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Are you insane?
Yet gens fly in seconds. My be alright if the rest of the game was balanced accordingly. It's a long way off.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
It's a good rework, but I hate to see it be moved from a team-based survivor perk to a perk about having no one around you. This makes it... well, not camaraderie and more... lackthereof? I don't want Steve's legacy to die!
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Are you insane?
This exact mechanic has been tested by BHVR, and scrapped because it was immediately abused to hell and back.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
If generators are flying, what's the killer doing next to a hook?
Hmmm... fair enough, I guess. But let's be honest - the perk doesn't exactly encourage nor benefit from any form of Camaraderie as is.
I might suggest that it may be more Camaraderie to take one for the team and have everyone do gens while you take the Killer's camp - a sort of indirect version.
But pointing out that the perk thrives on a LACK of friends nearby is a legitimate mention.
Has it really? I'd love to look at that test!
Abused how? Even if this perk was taken in every single match by every single survivor - it would only work in very particular circumstances. The only way for survivors to exploit it is to always leave their teammates on the hook - which will always be detrimental to them if the killer backs away to even nominal proxy distance.
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I have a better suggestion: (Comment below!)
Just make it so the perk works both for yourself on 2nd state and for others on 2nd state. This way it's less situational and leans more towards Camaraderie where you are working together with other survivors to keep each other alive. Kindred got this treatment a while back and it went from a perk no one really ran to a solid perk you'll often enough.
Plus I don't think this rework is really a good idea. Most people aren't going to want to stay on hook longer to counter camping. A lot of survivors already just let themselves die on hook if being camp so they can move on to a different game.
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Are you insane?
Good luck checking them all with slower killers on larger maps before they pop. You do play killer right lol
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
I agree that there could be a teamwork aspect put into the perk to make it more interactive and thematic :)
However, I've heard a lot of people on communities ranging from the forum to facebook and Reddit that have requested things like this. I'd imagine a perk that somehow makes a killer rue the day they face-camped would be worth having in the game - even if this is not precisely how it should look.
I do, actually!
But I still don't quite understand. If you're worried about generators - why are you still next to the hook? Isn't that the exact place you don't want to be if your intention is to pressure survivors?
I don't see how this incarnation of the perk has anything to do with generators.
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Are you insane?
I only usually camp when the game is either already lost or gens fly in seconds and I'm trying to protect losing pips.
Cheap as hell when you know comm squads know your every move.
If you change one thing you often need to change something else to balance.
DBD needs a lot of that to be consistently fair.
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Are you insane?
So basically, it put the killer in a lose-lose situation and actually made camping worse for the one being camped. I'll try to explain best I can.
Survivor A is on hook, survivor B will be around the hook, survivor C and D will be on gens. So as soon as the killer hooks, survivor B would be close enough that they can contest the save and the killer can see them, but not close enough to be an easy hit. The killer now either leaves the hook to chase, or tries to defend against the save.
If he chases, well that's an easy save for another survivor since they'll be away from the hook. If he stays the hook timer will be paused and the gens are still rolling. Survivor C and D have no pressure to go since the timer was paused, so they could work on gens freely until the situation changed. If the killer started to head in the direction of B but then turned around, well the timer would just pause again so B would just went back again as well and we're back to square 1. Survivors B, C, and D had no problem letting survivor A stay on hook the entire game so they could get the gens done free of pressure and get out. Maybe they'd go back during endgame to get A, and now the killer has 1 hook and that's it. Pretty much guaranteed 4E.
IIRC you could also loop around the general area of the hook and the timer would be paused the entire time as there either were no rules in place for the survivors position, just the killer, or it was less restrictive. Just to add to the shenanigans.
Survivor A was having an even worse time not being able to interact with the game for even longer, and the killer couldn't feasibly win because if they contested unhooks they got punished and obviously letting people get free saves isn't good either.
The lesson from the test was if you punish killers for camping, survivors will force that punishment to their advantage in any way they can. If you make the timer take longer, well that's just more gen time before we have to worry about the unhook and more time survivor A can't interact with the game. The alternative, to reward killers for not camping with some kind of buff or something, would be a much better system. Hence why there's killer perks that specifically require you to be away from the hooked survivor. We just need something basekit that's substantial enough to make not camping a much stronger option.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
The situation you described is a perfect reason this perk works, though.
In the ABCD example here, it's a 3 man game with a hook. The killer knows this. Once the killer sees that Camaraderie is activated, they will know 'hey - if I sit around, I'm wasting my time, and the survivors are going to win the game anyway.'
If Survivor B is, as discussed earlier, 24 meters away from the hook - sitting there. Bam. Easy. Killer can leave the 24 meter radius and chase them. If there are multiple survivors waiting JUST outside of the 24 meter radius, the killer only needs to step out of a 16 meter radius to counter this perk. The killer can proxy easily enough, there's no reason they'd have to face camp after just seeing survivor B.
Especially with C and D doing generators - the killer cannot see any of them within a 24 meter radius - the hook is safe to leave. The situation, as you described it, should never have been a face-camping situation. Face-camping in these situations is the absolute worst idea regardless, because by the time the survivor dies - C and D will have finished 2 generators. If anyone in this example is at fault, it's survivor B - who should ALSO be on a generator.
There are three thing's I'd like to say about your conclusion.
1.) Killers already have MANY perks that offer buffs for not camping. Campers don't take these perks. Having a little 'camper's insurance' does not mean the killer should be buffed in order to give them 'positive reinforcement'. Your job as a survivor is not to give positive reinforcement to the killer - it is your job to threaten them with powerful perks until they learn the right way. Borrowed Time does not buff killers that target the unhooking survivor - it gives a hearty punishment for hitting the wrong one. Decisive Strike does not give killers warm and fuzzy feelings for killing other survivors, it is a smoking gun aimed at the killer's head if they dare try and tunnel a survivor out of the game. Unbreakable doesn't award the killer with bloodpoints when they pick survivors up, nor does it shower them with confetti if they go the entire trial without survivors laying on the floor for long - it screws over killers that don't hook. These three perks have done more to encourage healthy killer gameplay than any killer perk has ever done. Thanks to DS and BT - it's a lot rarer to see killers tunnel survivors off the hook. Thanks to Unbreakable and Soul Guard, slugging everyone is a lot more of a risk than ever before. If you want killers to play well - you can give them incentive enough. But the best way to eliminate the gameplay is by creating a threat powerful enough to potentially destroy the match for killers that refuse to learn their lessons.
2.) You say that nobody wants to wait on the hook longer. Camaraderie already does that. Not only this, but it sounds like you're speaking from a place of... well... wherever you are. But when people are fed up with being face camped - taking this perk is their way of mutual destruction towards the killer. Decisive Strike doesn't mean you don't get tunneled, and does mean you spend a lot MORE time getting tunneled if anything - and hell, you can miss the check and lose the perk, it's a waste of time... why do people take it? Borrowed time forces survivors to spend several seconds mending? Who likes mending? Not only would sitting on the hook for longer NOT be an issue for many frustrated players - especially those playing with friends - but when the perk is revealed, the killer should feel sufficiently motivated to go away from the hook and find someone who DOESN'T have this perk to be their victim of choice.
3.) You're saying 'no' to a perk that does something like this, then you turn around and suggest that there is a basekit option to entice killers away from the hook? Face-campers cannot be enticed. They do not care if they stare at paint dry for minutes at a time and walk away with 2 kills. You fundamentally cannot stop face camping with bonusses to killers. If there was something implemented base-kit, it would be something akin to this... which would be infinitely more of an overstep than reworking this useless perk to niche appeal.
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Are you insane?
"Once the killer sees that Camaraderie is activated"
If they know its in play sure, killers don't get told what perks the survivor has unless it affect them directly, like a DS stun. This affects the survivors timer, not the killer. Most players won't even notice or by the time they do it'll be to late to change anything.
"'hey - if I sit around, I'm wasting my time, and the survivors are going to win the game anyway.'"
Right, and give another survivor on a nearby gen an easy save immediately. Bad for the killer regardless. Both options are bad Like I said.
" the killer only needs to step out of a 16 meter radius to counter this perk"
Then the perk is useless and killers will just camp from 16 meters now, defeating the point. You make the 16 bigger, well now the killer cant contest saves because they're too far, survivors get free unhooks.
"The situation, as you described it, should never have been a face-camping situation."
Well it was, sorry to tell you. You can't give survivors more time on gens. Other solutions have the potential to work, not that one. You're rewarding the survivors by letting their teammate get camped, defeating the point of trying to save them.
" Face-camping in these situations is the absolute worst idea regardless"
Yup, and giving a free save is also a bad idea, again they were both bad options. You're putting the killer in a lose-lose.
1.) Yes I mentioned those perks that reward not camping. Al those perks you mentioned are exactly the problem perks that many complain about. they're there to fix problems that should be fixed at base on both sides. Survivors are tired of running them, killer's are tired of getting punished for playing the efficient way when the alternative, 12 hook games, are just asking to lose. Make the reward for not camping make 12 hook games viable, your change doesn't do that at all you're just nerfing killers when we need to go the other direction.
"Your job as a survivor is not to give positive reinforcement to the killer - it is your job to threaten them with powerful perks until they learn the right way."
Well both of those aren't the survivors job. I don't think the role labeled "survivor" should be threatening the one called "killer" lol. Its the devs job to push the killers in a more positive direction, not the players.
2.) Yes camaraderie does but its also restricted to only the struggle phase and its actually run in tournament play for the very reason I mentioned, more time on gens. It doesn't need to and shouldn't be stronger. DS does make you get tunneled longer, people do take it to help their own chances of survival sure, but at least you get to interact with the game with it. BT's mend is a lot shorter than spending 60 seconds on a hook for a hook state, so its the better option. Unbreakable is better than sitting on the floor. These are all meta perks and commonly complained about such as "the survivors have too many second chances", which is true imo.
3.) Yes players who want to facecamp no matter what will do so, but this change will not change that either. What we can change is the players who camp just because its effective, by making it no longer a better strategy than trying to hook everybody 3 times. As I said "We just need something basekit that's substantial enough to make not camping a much stronger option." this doesn't do that, it just makes camping weaker. Killers will just lose more and survivor ques will get even worse than they already are.
While you are right that this change will entice players away by punishing them, those weren't my words, the transcript is right there.
"reward killers for not camping with some kind of buff" not "punish killers for camping with a nerf". Both are enticements, both are very different directions to go in.
I mean if you just want to nerf killer's across the board then sure, this would be a great change. I don't think that's a good idea, but its your proposal not mine.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
Yeah, I was imagining it would reveal its use similar to Coulrophobia or something of that effect. It wouldn't do much good if the killer didn't know it existed.
If there's a survivor on a nearby generator - your priority is to chase them. You should not be leaving the area for no reason - but if there is a survivor on a nearby generator, then the perk doesn't activate. And if you go to chase that other survivor away - you won't be in the smaller radius to begin with. Your 'lose lose' situation confuses me, because it doesn't exist practically
16 meters is plenty of space for survivors to close the distance and make a save. Besides, the complaints are not about proxy camping - which is a legitimate strategy at times, but about FACE camping. If a killer is already 'camping' 16 meters away, they might as well contest what's in a 16 meter radius. If you get the campers to stand 16 meters away. You already are already in a much better situation.
You're trolling, right? You just proved yourself wrong in the same sentence you made your thesis. If survivors no longer have a desire to save their teammate because they are being face-camped, they should already feel that way in the first place. This perk is doing nothing in that regard that Kindred does not already do.
If you think that walking away from a hook that has no other survivors nearby is a 'lose lose' you need more experience playing killer. Perhaps watch some streamers? Ask some questions in chat?
1.) Okay, I think I'm starting to understand. You're a killer main - and you don't understand how to play well, so you are frustrated. You think that camping is a core strategy. Got it.
2.) Oh! Thank you! You see, I was terribly worried you'd go on some silly statement about how wrong I was - but I'm glad that you agree that I'm correct. Not sure why you chose to walk back your original statement and confirm that MORE hook time is beneficial enough to warrant tournament play - but yet, for some reason, you seem to argue that turning a 120 second hook into a 200 second hook (adding 80 seconds to your total hook time) is in some way a BAD idea for survivors. Ingenious.
3.) You're a face camping killer. We get it. You're upset because if this change was implemented, you'd have to learn how to actually play the game. We get it. Truth is, you're going to have to learn sometime. I'm sorry if making the game healthier makes it 'a nerf for killers' in your eyes, but truth be told - killers that camp already are nerfed. You're shooting yourself in the leg and crying that it has to be amputated. If you don't want anti-camping perks to 'nerf' your playstyle. Get a new playstyle, or get out of the game. Self-proclaimed face-campers that are confirmed to NOT be defending the hook and NOT contesting a hook are NOT the kinds of players that are appreciated. You, sir, give good killers a bad name.
It's one thing to disagree with the perk from a professional or design point of view, but if all you have to your argument is "I'm an unskilled face-camper, and such a perk would be deleterious to my playstyle!" then congrats - you've made the argument that this is the BEST perk to discourage such players.
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Are you insane?
- No I play both sides, this wont do anything but make things worse. Its already been proven. But I'm starting to understand you're a survivor main and have no regards to killers at all.
- You clearly have no reading comprehension.
- I don't camp period, including proxy camp because its boring af. But sure, go to personal insults because you're arguments are trash.
You've already been proven wrong by irl events, not some on paper shenanigans. I already won this argument before it began, you're just in denial at this point. Stay ignorant then 🤷
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
Enters conversation
Proves self wrong several times
Argues that the game is unplayable outside of camping
Constantly shifts their own goal posts
Refuses to elaborate
Pretends to have won
Yet another casualty of the public education system.
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Are you insane?
They're never going to implement this system because it's been proven trash. That's all there is to it, period.
Keep ignoring reality bub.
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Are you insane?
Yet another failure of an upbringing to accept when they're wrong when events have already showed so.
You asked about the test, what happened and how it was abused, then when you got told what happened and why, tried to argue that the reason why it failed, the situation it caused, is the reason why it'll succeed... somehow. "The situation you described is a perfect reason this perk works, though." It's not and it doesn't.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
This thread has been quite the journey. But ignoring all the mess, I like the idea very much. Maybe a tweak or two on numbers could do it well, but that's not for me to decide.
It's overall a good idea and would certainly help against camping killers.
However... You don't face camping killers that often. And if you do, that's some severe bad luck on your part. Most games where the killer is aware that camping won't lead to more than one kill will result in no camp situations and a wasted perk slot. That wouldn't be a good perk design, if you need to consider this scenario to have the perk take effect, then no survivor is going to use it anyway.
Camping is mostly seen in end game situations where the killer has no choice but to stand by the hook or risk not getting at least that one kill. This perk would help in that case, sure, but it wouldn't be as consistent as to encourage survivors to use this new version of the perk during the games that it'd matter most.
Facecamping is a real issue. And it requires a real solution rather than a perk bandaid like the devs are known to do with several issues.
tl;dr: I like the perk, but camping on first hook should be a problem the Devs should handle through game design rather than expect their players to run one of their four perks.
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I have a better suggestion: (Comment below!)
My version is this:
While hooked, if the killer is within 24 meters of the hook, entity progress is 20%/25%/30% slower. If the killer is within 6 meters of the hook, it's 40%/45%/50% slower.
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I have a better suggestion: (Comment below!)
Those are crazy numbers, but otherwise I think it would be ok as a perk. I originally wrote a long response because I thought you wanted it as a game mechanic. I'm old and don't pay attention.
To give a perspective, a killer can can change basement hook speed like 3%. Messing with hook speed is a big deal, it would have to be way smaller.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
Long responses are always welcome! (Don't worry, I'm young and I don't pay much attention either.)
Fair enough!
I don't think my numbers are rocket-science based, CNN fact-checker backed, Twitter blue sticker, FDA approved and ready to go.
I mostly post these things to start conversation. See where everyone else is at
3% of Entity progress is just shy of 4 seconds.
80% is a little over 90 seconds.
There's a lot between 4 and 90 seconds though!
What would you, yourself, feel most comfortable with as added time to a perk like this? :)
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I have a better suggestion: (Comment below!)
20% would be a minute, essentially an entire extra hook state, almost a whole gen. I feel like that would be punishing enough to get value out of the perk. It's ok if something is potentially game-changing, but you can't make it definitely game-changing. That's the problem with CoH.
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Eh. Whatever.
these poll options felt kinda polarizing.
I'd be willing to try this, but I'm not over the moon or anything.
I'd say I'm in favour, though.
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Yes! Perfect! This is just what the game needs!
Wouldn't 50% be a minute?
120 seconds total hook time. 60 seconds is half of 120.
I see where you're coming from, though!
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