http://dbd.game/killswitch
How YOU (BHVR) Can Stop Hook Camping
I've played against a few hardcore hook-campers in my time, and I'll tell you what: it sucks. Now, I'm not talking about those tip-toeing "patrollers" or those proxy watch-me-die-from-afar types, nor those "well, exit gates are powered so what else do you want me to do" chumps. I'm talking those Killers who get the first hook of the trial and then stay close enough to hold your gosh dang hand whilst your sacrifice progress bar chips away, like some twisted hospice nurse. It's a real problem. But, just in case some of you are questioning my sanity or somehow lack the understanding of why this playstyle is so unfun to play against, I'll lay it out for you. If, however, you're already on-board the anti-camper choo-choo, skip down to the section labelled "The What (To Be Done About It)," and give yourself a pat on the back for already being reasonable. Well done.
The Why
If we want to stop hook camping, we have to know why it happens in the first place.
Ever hear that saying, "a bird in the hand trumps two in the bush?" Well, that's the crux of the Hook-Camper Killer Creed (it's a real thing for real, I promise--go look it up). By hook-camping, the Killer is securing a kill, or at least preventing that Survivor from being on objective. If more Survivors arrive to try and be a hero, objective progress stalls further, but the sacrifice progress bar continues to tick. Even if the Survivors realize the Killer is camping and abandon the unhook, it still results in a lot of wasted time. In hook-camping, the Killer has an advantage over the other playstyles that allow for unhooks.
The What
"So what, though?" I hear you say. "A strategy is a strategy, right? Hook-camping is just another strategy. That does not make it problematic. Run Borrowed Time and get gud."
But actually, though. Hook-camping is bad and you're wrong if you think it's valid. ... Yes, I am bad at Survivor, but this is not the point!
I mean, I don't think it's a hot take to say sitting on a hook from stage 1 until death is fun. In fact, a lot of hook-campers benefit from how awful it is to be in a match with them, getting Survivors to sacrifice themself so the Killer can go find a new victim to camp faster than normal. Being a victim of hook-camping is the equivalent of being put in time out for no good reason, except in DBD, all the items, add-ons, and offerings you took in also disappear. So I guess getting spanked, too?
Let's not forget, either, that one of the Killer medals specifically penalizes you for time spent near occupied hooks. So obviously this play style does not have the blessing of BHVR (Hello! I finally said your name! How are you? Doing good? I saw the Player Feedback Survey. Very excited to see where that goes...).
The What (To Be Done About It)
Let me beat you to the punch. You're about to tell me, in varying levels of politeness and detail, the tactics and builds that you can run to beat hook-campers. You know, now that I think about it, you'll probably just link me to Otzdarva. Hey, listen, that's great, but I don't play at as high a level as you and I definitely don't have those perks as teachables, or even unlocked. Or even available to unlock. And I'm not unique in that regard. I do play this game a lot, but some are just moonlighters who do a few games a week. Imagine one of those gets ruined by a hook-camper. So I think we need a more direct solution. Do I have it? That "direct solution?" Yes.
Let's just come out and say it: a few seconds after a Survivor is hooked, reveal the Killer's aura when they are standing next to a hook occupied by a Survivor, and are not currently in a chase. It's basically Kindred but for everyone, all the time, except under a few conditions. Let me explain.
Like I said, a big part of the hook-camper's strategy is to waste the time of the Survivors until they realize the death of their teammate is inevitable. During that time and after, the Survivors have less hands to finish gens, which counterbalances the time the Killer wasted standing at the hook. Therefore, the Survivors need to be able to detect a hook-camper killer early on, so they don't fall behind.
If the Killer stands close to the hooks and has their aura revealed, the Survivors can decide to stay on gens to rush objective. Since that counter-strategy usually works, it will discourage Killers from camping in future.
If the Killer stands just outside the range to have their aura revealed, that distance should be enough to enable Survivors the opportunity for an unsafe unhook.
Additionally, this change would make going for unhooks on late hooks much more interesting and viable, and would make me (as Killer) feel less dirty when I'm standing there with my thumb in my mouth hoping I'm not being judged while the Survivors make their way out through the exit gates, sans one.
The WHAT!? You Want *WHAT* To Be Done About It!?
Here we go again. Now you're saying "just run Kindred if it's so good at detecting campers, meh, I'm an imaginary community member made to sound antagonistic even though the actual response will hopefully be very nice," and I hear what you're saying, but that was a very long sentence so I didn't pay attention to the end. Please wait until the sub-posts to heckle me; this is my part of the thread.
I sort of brought this up earlier but I'll say it again: running special builds just to counter toxic playstyles (that ideally should not be possible in the game) is the worst form of a solution. Perks themselves should not be the solution to this problem, because there is no way to know when you're going to need your "anti-camper" perks. If you tell me just to run them all the time, well, now I can't try out other perks and have fun with them.
Not only that, but with Kindred specifically, it only reveals the Killer's aura to the person with the perk (unless that person is hooked, but if you are the hooked person in a hook-camper game, you're ducked anyway, so...), meaning that Kindred is not good enough in this situation. It will only tell one person not to waste their time going for the hook, or show them how to break through.
So, yes. It is clear that hook-camping is a problem. It is clear it is not wanted, both by the community and BHVR. It is clear that anti-camping perk builds are not a good solution, because to achieve 100% coverage you'll never be able to run anything else since you never know when you need them. Therefore, a higher level change needs to be made, one that specifically targets hook-camper behavior and punishes it by giving Survivors actionable information when it is detected, perks or not.
Show them the aura. Who says The Entity can't be just a little bit forgiving?
Comments
-
If you want to penalize camping, do gens. YOU'RE the ones that decide whether my camping works. I don't camp survivors to death unless all the gens are done, and even then I'm not trying to kill the one on the hook, I'm trying to get the others. I'll always leave if given a reason.
Hiding behind a nearby tree gives me a reason to stay. Don't do that, you're literally telling me "go ahead and let them die, I'll wait".
Read the rules. Not only do the devs approve of camping, there are youtube videos of them doing it. Please don't speak for the entire community.
7 -
Ok, please read the post before responding. Thanks.
2 -
Just do bones.
5 -
Top marks for melodrama.
When I get hook camped at 5 gens I hang out for as long as I can if I die I queue again because hey its only a game.
Some of the most exciting games I've played have been high intensity play around a hook, both as killer and survivor.
You lament using perks to make counter builds but then your solution is just make the suggested perks base kit.
Bring the staitc meta build and have your anti camp built in for you, why simply because I don't like camping.
I want to run the builds I want and have the tools to counter a particular playstile all in one because I feel cheated. waah.
Can we get killer gen regression built in too to stop gen rush? I want to bring a strong build that will get me kills and end chases but I gotta run regression so I don't get smacked down by gen jockies in 5 mins and I don't want to waah. Its all so silly.
You wanna reduce the risk of being camped at 5 gens then don't be the schmuck who gets found first, play smart.
Smash out the gens and then go for hook trades, the killer is either gonna trade or tunnel which will give 2 people time to finish the gens and 99/open the gates.
No one even tries to hook trade anymore they all just want to get away for free and then chuck a sookie when they can't.
0 -
So you want Kindred to be basekit. Okay, why did you need such a long bloated post for that?
Also the problem with killers camping is that most maps are either too large or dense in pallets/walls for most to effectively chase; even if you do manage it there's a half dozen perks that can get survivors out of any mistakes they make.
4 -
Gonna be honest, I wish the devs did. But every single suggestion I've made has been met with disdain and complaints, as you very well see.
it seems like, while camping and tunneling may be considered by many to be a BAD thing, the community largely defends these aspects as core - fundamental part of the experience.
Why? I have no idea.
Good luck making a big splash.
People in this community will defend these things to their dying breaths.
1 -
None of it works because of nurse (and other mobility killers, but mainly her) being able to just drop on top of hook and grab anyway.
0 -
Revealing the aura of a face-camping killer is a nice idea, but I think it's not enough because of stealth killers and insidious.
I though once that using afk crows on an hooked survivor would be neat, but it would probably not be explicit enough for most survivors.
There are few killers that can't use their powers near hooks (Pyramid Head's trails, Twins, Artist). Disabling more killer power next to hooks could be interesting, I mainly think about bubba (yes that would hinder a bubba chasing a survivor that loops near a hooked survivor, but this situation is a mistake from the chased survivor and is in the advantage of the killer in my opinion).
Another issue that makes facecamping strong is that you can be grabbed from rescuing survivors while being healthy. I remember Otz made a poll on one of his streams months ago, and he said he'd like that you can only be grabbed from unhooking if you're already injured and I think that would be fair.
On dbd mobile, there's a loading page that pop ups often, telling survivors they should do generators asap when someone is being face camped. However, facecamping is very commun on dbd mobile, and survivors always run to their death despite they should know not to do that. There was an attempt there by bhvr, but it's clearly not successful.
(I have 700h on dbd on pc, and probably close to 200h on dbd mobile)
Finally, if facecamping gets weaker, these players will certainly seek and find another cheesy strategy, like stalking from afar the hook with ghostface, iridescent head huntress watching the hook, one shot deathslinger, etc.
1 -
They tried implementing something like you propose with killer powers, the result was people abused it to get people off the hook while they're effectively a M1 killer.
2 -
First of all, that post was an absolute delight to read.
Also, everyone replying with "just do gens" is silly, why would I do a gen when a survivor is hooked and the memories of them tbagging after spawning is apparently not enough for your teammates to unhook them? Survivors will either go straight for the unhook, wait after they've finished their gen or go once they realise no one else is.
The point is, if your teammates are decent they will go for the unhook.
Maybe once they reach the hook and meet Bubba's stare they will go back to their gens, but then they've wasted precious time crossing the map, and it's likely the other two teammates will do the same. It's also possible your teammates don't want to let the baby Meg die on hook with only 3k bloodpoints and a de-pip as a compensation for this amazing gaming experience, after all the three of us, BT and a flashlight surely can try to beat this one man?Also, the Meg isn't killing herself on hook, is it a plea to for us to try and save her or is she hoping to discuss aprons with the killer until the gens are done?
"Just do gens" is an argument you can yell at swf while burning their survivor rulebook, but it's not something you can hold against solo queue survivors. Solo survivors have no way of telling their teammates they're being facecamped, have no way of telling them to stay on gens while hoping they black pip and have no way to assure them that "im sure don't worry i'll just waste time". Altruistic solo survivors will trade hooks, snowball and die trying to save a facecamped survivor because the only way for a facecamped solo survivor to let the others know what they want is to claim loud and clear that if this is their fate then it shall be everyone's, as they kill themselves on hook.
So yes, I agree that if BHVR isn't going to implement a "just do gens!!" emote for hooked survivors, they should make kindred basekit. It wouldn't fix the dilemma of "to save or not to save that random person who maybe would like to play the game" but at least it would diminish the time wasted by survivors to realize facecamp is happening.
1 -
Oh, I wasn't aware of this, thanks! But what do you mean by "people abused it to get people off the hook"? Isn't that the desired outcome? The current issue is it's impossible to unhook in some conditions and I think that sucks.
0 -
All you did was type a lot of words asking for Kindred base kit.
Guess what?
The devs have flat out said no to that idea. Directly. NO. A solid, flat NO.
If you don't like it, run Kindred.
Yes, you need to run perks to counter strategies. You not liking it does not make it true. Don't like getting tunnelled off the hook? Decisive Strike. Don't like stealth killers? Spine Chill. And so on.
Just saying "I shouldn't have to run a perk!" is not an argument. You get FOUR. You will manage.
4 -
Running kindred doesn't change the problem because unless you're the one being hooked you're the only who knows your teammate is being facecamped, so the other two teammates will still have to go the hook before even knowing facecamp is happening. Not only that but even your teammates being aware you're being facecamped doesn't counter the strategy at all, as they have no way of knowing if you want to sacrifice yourself for the team or if a rescue is possible because you have DS and a teammate BT or whatever. Only being able to tell your teammates to "just do gens" or "save me" could help, but i don't think that's ever going to be implemented.
It's not so much a "i don't like it so it should be forbidden" problem but a "it doesn't impact swf nearly as much as it does solo q" problem. Facecamping against swf is easily counterable, in solo q it's an easy win for the killer most of the time. Idc if people facecamp me, I'd just like an option to let my teammates know i don't want them to risk throwing the game by trying to rescue me. Kindred can't do that, and I can't assume people who run kindred think like that because from my experience when ppl who run it get facecamped while the rest of us just do gens they kill themselves and complains in post game chat about how "solo q is awful even when you run kindred you die on first hook".
BHVR says they want to reduce the gap between solo q & swf and has yet to implement the changes for that (and keep making things worse for solo q in the mean time), kindred isn't an op perk by any means, making it basekit (or a similar mechanic, or even ridiculous emotes/stickers that people would definitely spam) would improve solo q survivors' experience without buffing swf in the process. So no, i don't think survivors should have to run a perk just to know something swf do for free. You still need BT and/or DS to manage a facecamp situation, it's not like kindred is a "free out of facecamp" card. tho I will say I would definitely go back to running kindred if it got buffed so the killer's aura reading effect was for everyone instead of just the person running it. As of right now it's just not worth running tbh.
0 -
Yet another "We need to 'fix' a Killer tactic because Survivors don't like it, and everyone knows Killers can only do things Survivors approve of." post, huh?
All you said is 'I want Kindred baskit' in more words.
3 -
Hook Camping is valid
4 -
Even face camping at 5 gens?
0 -
Yes
4 -
I am a Killer main.
I'll run perks to counter valid strategies, like how when I play Killer I will run Lightborn to counter beamers or my pallet perks to counter pallet drops. The responsibility for dealing with face camping should not be on the players because it's not the intended way of play, anyway.
It is clear from this post that you did indeed read it and so that makes your comments that much the sweeter.
But yes, I agree and I give my personal seal of approval for this to be canonical supplementary text to the original post above.
The "catch" mechanic is a poor state. I can't tell you how many times the catch animation will start and then fail suddenly, or I will get points for a catch without getting one at all. So, whether it's the game ######### up or Survivors cheesing their interaction to prevent the catch, it's entirely unreliable. I don't really think Survivors being caught on the hook is the problem here; in my games, it doesn't happen even when it should.
You are correct when you say that face-campers will evolve their strategy, but I still think it is necessary, because you go from virtually no chance of a rescue to having the (pretty good) chance to dodge the axe or the shot. It might not solve all problems, like Insidious or Ghost Face, but with previous changes in place, now we can focus on those specifics. Survivors are pretty crafty. They really just need a tiny bit of breathing room and they'll make the plays happen.
The main issue is getting the Killer's physical body to get away from the hook to give more of a chance for an unhook. With Nurse and those other mobility Killers, closing that distance and getting the grab requires some amount of skill, and there's a chance to outsmart or outpace the Killer. It takes no skill to stand next to a hook and body block it.
If I just came in here with my first post looking like a Tweet asking for a modified Kindred to be added to basekit, that'd gone over worse. My hope is that I understand the issue and I show that in my explanation. My second hope is that with that context it becomes clear why my proposal would be effective. My third hope is that by putting in that work the developers see that effort and return it with an honest, thorough evaluation, which, because I'm a raging narcissist, I think will obviously lead them to my same conclusion. Fourth, quite a lot of the post is fluff to appeal to humor, in a hope I won't appear as "taking myself too seriously" which always attracts people who want to tear YOU down instead of your ideas. That, and to make it easier to stomach the read. If I thought I'd get the same outcome with a shorter post, I probably would have. It took way too long to write.
I'm a Killer main, so I feel like I can talk about this stuff pretty confidently. I agree on some maps in particular pallets are awful. Survivors also have a lot of perks that give them second chances. Big HOWEVER. Those are two separate problems. If me, a Plain Jane Killer Kid, still averages 3Ks on games that I explicitly go out of my way to not tunnel and camp, well, then....
So, yeah, I agree map design is a big issue. Personally, I would not give a hoot about a map dense with safe pallets if I had the heads up to run an anti-pallet build on it. The dynamic where no one knows each others perks until it's too late to change them is, to me, not just a head-scratcher, but a head gouger. But these are different things, and even if the game were "fixed" in those regards, face-camping would still be as effective and as possible as it was before.
It's probably because there are "anti-camping" and "anti-tunneling" perks built into the game? And you know, since they had to walk to school five miles uphill both ways in the snow while being chased by the neighbors dogs, everyone else just needs to get gud and develop an immuno-response to the toxicity. It's only natural.
Although, I will say that people have different definitions of camping and tunneling. My definitions are pretty strict.
The behavior must be intentional.
The behavior must be unmotivated by events in the game.
So this means a camper sits on hook at 3 gens the same way they sit on hook at 5 gens. Killer stays at hook during exit gates? That's motivated by events in the game and is (more) understandable.
It also means a tunneler purposefully tracks the same Survivor to hook them out of the game, even if other Survivors are around or easier targets. Coincidentally finding your last hook victim self-healing in a corner? Well it's not ideal to down and hook them, but it's far from egregious.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
Camping is a valid strategy.
You deciding it's not does not mean it needs to be punished by easily abused mechanics, or gift-wrap perks for Survivors to have basekit.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Explain why one of the Killer medals punishes the grade for staying near active hooks?
1 -
Explain how emblem score is in any way indicative of strategies to win?
The score is to ENCOURAGE Killers to do other things. Kind of like some perks ENCOURAGE Killers to leave the hook. The existence of those perks/scores does not mean 'DO NOT CAMP EVER!'. You're cherry picking 'evidence' to suit your argument.
The real evidence is that the developers have said camping and, yes; even tunneling and slugging, are VALID. That means they are valid, and you saying 'But your score gets punished!" does not make them wrong or you right.
3 -
Emblem score talks about things like keeping objective pressure, hooking survivors, getting hits, etc. All things you need to do to win.
If you wanna cherry pick, we can go and find some other choice things the developers have ever said and see if they're on the level ;)
The suggestion I put forth is literally, as you have so eloquently said, E N C O U R A G E M E N T for Killers to leave the hook. Therefore it is in the same spirit of what's already in the game.
So I do E N C O U R A G E you do check yourself.
1 -
I mean, if your best reason not to make the game more fun and balanced is - that by doing so - bad players will only make the game worse... then what's the point of the discussion in the first place?
That's like not stopping a bank robbery because 'bank robbers will find a worse way to rob a bank if we stop them' - it makes no absolute sense.
If IH Huntress is a problem, it should be fixed in addition to other problems - not used as a cudgel to discourage positive change.
This isn't constructive discussion. it's shutting down constructive discussion because bad construction exists somewhere else in the world.
Agreed.
Not only do we all need to come together to find legitimate community definitions for these terms, but Ii appreciate your wording. Intentionality.
Camping is when the killer is sitting within 6m of the hook, often staring directly at it, and doing basically nothing - even (especially) when unprovoked. When survivors are rushing the hook, or you're patrolling, perhaps staying nearby to defend the hook, or have nothing better to do - so you intend to secure the kill and force other survivors out. Completely fine. The problem is when killers choose to stay directly on top of a survivor in spite of everything - even to their own detriment. If they just had 4 sneaky BT unhooks in a row within seconds of a hook - sticking around to make sure there are no sneaky survivors waiting around is fine. Camping is NOT simply existing near the hook, nor is it returning frequently or staying in the general area. Camping is when the killer sits and stares - game be damned. 2 minutes is a lot of time, and survivors can get a lot done, but it isn't enough to make for a guaranteed 3e. It just makes the game stagnant and boring for all parties involved and must be discouraged wherever possible. If EGC has started and the other two survivors are at exit gates - go ahead and stick by the hook as killer, it's no big deal. But if you're sitting and staring at your first hook and waiting for 2 minutes (or for a silly would-be-savior to step up) you're just wasting everyone's time. I've played over 1k hours with the majority as killer; camping - by this definition - has not, is not, nor ever will be 'a legitimate strategy' in this game.
True enough. Tunneling, however, is not so much placing priority and mentally juggling hook states to know when you need to brute force a kill. it is, however when the killer refuses to extract health states from others or apply pressure to only lock down on another survivor - instantly acquiring them off hook and chasing them down world-be-damned. If the person unhooked has had 30 seconds to breathe, has worked on other objectives, has been restored to full health, been caught out in any way, or you - the killer - have invested time pressuring or injuring any other survivor after the unhook... you're not tunneling. It comes back to what you said 'intentional'. I've had silly survivors walk right into me after being unhooked because they thought I was approaching from a different place - that's on them. I've had unhooked survivors refuse to heal and hop on a generator - their risk, their fault. II've had survivors heal back to full health only for me to re-acquire them and beat them handily in another chase - it's fair game at that point. Some people seem to think that tunneling is an over-broad term, but I think you nailed it on the head with your 'intentional' feature. Quantifiably, though, tunneling is more-so accomplishing nothing outside of one survivor upon their unhook. If your only aim in life is to make one survivor's game dirty and rotten - mean, but fair enough, just don't forget to spread the love over the entire 4 survivor roster. You have lots of generators to defend, health states to strip away, survivors to chase, and pallets to break. If you cannot find ONE other thing to do with your time that doesn't involve a freshly unhooked survivor - you're just ruining the fun. Tunneling survivors off the hook is not sporting, and is extremely - extremely foolish. It serves little other than to make the game a frustrating bore for all parties involved for no net benefit.
~
Absolutely agreed.
When a survivor telegraphs an unhook, defending the hook is a major priority.
If there are no nearby survivors - or the survivors have clearly left - or there iis no REASON to suspect nearby survivors, snuggling up to the hooked survivor is the very definition of setting up a camp.
. . .
War Phead.
Not 'Pee-head' but like... 'fed'
Like in the cringy early 2000's when we said 'Phat'
Unless it IS War Pee-Head.
In which case it must be like Pinhead but with more... like... Call Of Duty sponsored Mountain Dew ?
Also...
Here's a perk change I wanted to get feedback on:
If you just make it so that face campers have to sit under the hook for 4 AGONIZING minutes when they sit there for no reason - it will completely shift the game around.
Campers enjoy the luxury of the 2 minute hook time - which is usually super well designed for normal gameplay, but campers rely on this 2 minute countdown to leave enough room for them to find another camping victim before the end game rolls around - or 3 if a couple kill themselves.
On a side note, it would also be nice if Killer players that meet this criteria (Remaining within a short range of the hook when no other survivors remain within a larger radius) have BP sapped from their post-match earnings and transferred to the hooked survivor.
For the killer, it's a clear punishment that may take hundreds of BP away - maybe even a couple grand! Easy BP are out the window for campers.
On the other hand, if you're being camped, just hang in there, you're earning all those bloodpoints that the killer is shedding and more.
Drag this out for a long period of time, and the killer will have their BP gains in the dirt if they choose to camp, and regardless of how unfun it was getting camped - you still leave with a lot more earnings than you previously would have had when falling victim to the predations of such grievers.
While I'm skeptical as to the viability and reception to making Kindred Base-Kiit, I'd love to hear your thoughts and approaches to something along these lines.
2 -
Yes it's a valid and accepted strategy by bhvr, but you're off-topic, the subject is not to know if it is valid or not.
The subject is about how face-camping can go from a viable strategy to a poorly consistent strategy. Yes there are counterplays, but the point of tastespurple is that a lot of survivors don't do these counter play. That is why facecamping is currently a viable strategy.
I'm not just a survivor main ranting about killers' strength (and I do play kinda equally survivor and killer). I just think cheesy strategies should get looked at and become weaker.
2 -
Re: Camaraderie
I'm unsure. The main change here is that instead of at least 2 Survivors being occupied (one with Camaraderie and the other triggering it), your rework gives potential for all other (3) Survivors to stay on objective (but this still does not seem likely).
I still don't think the perk avenue is the best way to find a solution, but here are some suggestions:
Buff Kindred
-When the Killer is within a short range of the hook, their aura is revealed to all Survivors, even and especially when the holder of the perk is not the one on the hook.
-The range from the hook at which the Killer is revealed to the other Survivors could be shorter than the holder of the perk, or it could be when they are within the Terror Radius, but nevertheless the range at which the Killer is revealed should be a range they have no business staying within when the hook is active.
A New Perk
-Take Your Time: When another Survivor progresses to second hook stage, for the next 15 seconds, any damage taken that would put you into the dying state will instead apply the Deep Wound status effect. [Stuff about mend times, getting hit again makes you go down, etc.] [You also can't be "caught" whilst performing the unhook action while this perk is active, but that is a secret effect not in its description.]
-This perk in particular would work well against face-campers but also be viable in many other scenarios. It's basically "Borrowed Time" but for the benefit of the hero instead of the victim.
Something Else Entirely
The main idea of my suggestion in the original post is to notify Survivors when the Killer is face-camping. There's lots of ways to do that. Someone suggested an icon. There could be some kind of audio or visual cue. Maybe the Entity starts whispering. Who the hell knows? It really doesn't matter what the method of delivery is, just that the information (the Killer is face-camping) is delivered promptly to the Survivors.
Killers have crows, so Survivors need something. These are both abusive scenarios, but only one has a fix.
1 -
Oh, I just opened doors about what could happen, but I completely agree that facecamping should be weaker. Sorry if my writing looked like I though these changes were useless.
3 -
But why should it punished or nerfed or 'become weaker' when you said it yourself;
is that a lot of survivors don't do these counter play
So, basically, you're advocating that anything Survivors hate, but are too lazy (Or too META-slave) to combat, should be nerfed so they don't have to go off-META or grow a brain? That's a GREAT way to keep Killers, right there.
'Yes, we know Camping is valid. Yes, we know camping has counters. But we're still nerfing it because Survivors are too lazy to use those counters, and they don't want to go off-META. W-why are there 0 Killer players left!? 😮'
So I will ask again; if there's counters and if there's perks; Why should it 'weakened'? Just because Survivors don't want to counter it? Just because Survivors want easy unhooks? Just because Survivors want to stay on META and glue themselves to gens for 5 minutes?
Why should it be changed, just to appease people who are too lazy to use the counters that exist?
0 -
What are the counters, though? This is a genuine question. I'll admit there MUST BE counters, but the only one I really know is staying on objective (and Kindred, but only kind of sort of), and you don't know to stay on gens until you find out you're going against a face camper. Which you often find out too late. If there's perks, well, it takes a lot of BP to Collect 'Em All, so am I supposed to stay miserable throughout that until I earn the privilege of finding the counterplay perks in bloodweb? Perks I may not even have access to with the default Survivors?
The issue isn't "laziness." It's lack of accessibility.
0 -
I appreciate the level-headed clarification even though it wasn't for me specifically. This is a very healthy response :)
1 -
I think Kindred should work as-is, but reveal the killer's aura in a 24 meter radius. Would make it a much stronger pick and you'd see it a lot more often.
~
100%. on the Take Your Time idea.
Honestly, there are so many weak perks out there - this could easily be added to many of them to make them more attractive. We'll Make It granting Endurance while within 8m of a hooked survivor and making it proc after the final gen is completed would spring it into the stratosphere, for instance.
I want to see your perk idea in the game, But I'd also like to see it in the form of a preexisting garbage bin perk - like Desperate Measures.
~
I like the idea of the killer accruing crows for every 10 seconds the game detects them as 'camping' without legitimate need.
Maybe just a little killer icon on the HUD that shows that the killer is being cheeky.
As you say, maybe it really is just that simple!
0 -
Thanks for being calm and clear about it. Miscommunications happen, it's a nice feeling knowing we can work through them.
0 -
The counters are:
- Going for the rescue with teammates. The Killer can only hit one person (depending on the Killer). Have one take the hit so the other can grab and unhook during the blood-wipe cooldown. Make sure the healthy Survivor also body-blocks for his friends.
- Yes; stay on gens. If the Killer wants that ONE kill; the best way to punish him is to do your objective. Remember; his objective is TO KILL. Why can Survivors focus on a gen, but Killers focusing on a Survivor is somehow bad?
- There are perks to mitigate camping. Use them if you run into campers as much as some Survivors claim.
Remember; the Killer's goal is to kill you. And there's no rules staying WHEN he can start. I don't get genrushing (AKA; going for the nearly complete gens) is fine, but Killers trying to win is 'evil' just because 'it removes someone from the game'.
Because that's literally, how the Killer creature pressure; my whittling down the Survivors. It's not bad that he can do his objective, just because some Survivors dislike losing.
Part of the game, as a Survivor, is being knocked out of a match, and, unlike what some people say; there's not 'premature' way to be killed. If you were caught, and you died; you played. You did not lose 'prematurely'.
THAT SAID: Camped Survivors should get a BP bonus for 'distracting' the Killer from going for fresh kills. That way they at least earn decent BP for being camped out of the map.
If we start putting in mechanics to 'punish' camping; we run into Survivors abusing said mechanics for an advantage (It happened in the past). We also run into Killers losing legit kills to the hypothetical punishment/mechanics because the game decided 'That was camping' when it was not.
In short: If we start forcing Killers to play a certain way, with programmed rules and mechanics; Why have Killer players at all? Just add bots that won't camp and call it a day. Because why should a human being, with human agency & decision making, be told 'No, not that way. No, not like that, either. Ok, THAT is allowed, but not what you're doing now.' until they lose because their hands are tied?
1 -
It IS a valid strategy. Source: the developers. You know, the people that made the game.
#DEALWITHIT
0 -
This guy is great at Making Friends and Influencing People.
You better not complain about ANYTHING in the game ever at all, because the developers can do no wrong. And I'm not convinced the developers have condoned face-camping specifically. "Camping" can be a wide net of a term for some people.
- Coordinated hook rescue in Survivor solo queue is not something I would expect until you have a lot of time in the game.
- Again, you don't know to stay on gens until you know you're dealing with a face camper, but that information is extremely rare to come by until it's too late. The reason Survivors focusing on a gen is okay is because that does not prevent the Killer from playing the game. Sitting on a hook is effectively timeout.
- Specific perks? I only have default Survivors and hardly any teachables. You might forget how much time it takes to grind through an entire bloodweb, but I play the game often and put a decent amount of points in and I'm still where I am after over 150 hours. It is simply unreasonable to expect someone to grind that much just to deal with a cheap strat which doesn't require nearly as much effort.
Just because the last attempt at something vaguely similar had a supposedly bad outcome doesn't mean you should stop trying to invent. And, I'll say this once again: I'm a Killer main. In my games, I specifically go out of my way to avoid camping and tunneling, and I still get 4Ks and high BP matches like the rest of them. If you face camp and tunnel, it's more likely that YOU need to shape up, rather than the other way around.
1 -
Why should it be changed, just to appease people who are too lazy to use the counters that exist?Nothing to do with laziness! It's the opposite! To me, face camping is an issue because it's boring, and the purpose of nerfing face camping is to make it interactive. It's boring to sit on gens, it's boring to stay on a hook, and I find it boring to face camp as a killer.
This means I'm not satisfied with the current counters. Why not making face camping more interactive?
That's a GREAT way to keep Killers, right there.Face camping isn't great to attract new players or to keep survivors in the game. I'm sure there's people on this forum that pressed alt+f4 as soon as they got face camped. Would you say face camping in its current state is healthy for the game? I don't.
Also, I don't think face camping has something to do with the balance of the game. To me, killers that face camp just want easy kills, and face camp would exist even if the game was balanced.
If you are one of these killers, there are still plenty of other cheesy strategies out there that are slightly more interactive you can use (I don't like them, but I would prefer killers to use them rather than face camping).
[Survivors] don't want to go off-METAThat's not the point, and do killers want to go off-meta? I think you should take a step back.
Yes it is valid, but that does not mean it should not become interactive. You are off-topic.
Post edited by Ula on1 -
ORLY?
You sure about that?
3 -
That's cool. This isn't in the report system. You probably didn't notice, but we're in the feedback and suggestions section on the forum. I'll have the orderly escort you back to your room.
2 -
That is a list of things BHVR is cool with. They are not reportable, bannable, and are not against the rules in any way.
You say BHVR doesn't condone camping. It's right there.
3 -
See bottom negative points.
2 -
Deductive points is not the same thing as not condoning. It is incentive to go do something else. At no point have they condemned it. They just give you reasons to go do something else, like Devour Hope and BBQ & Chili.
If they had an issue with it, perks like Kinship would not exist to help you combat it.
I don't know if you have been playing this game long enough, but the hook timer used to pause when Survivors were on the hook and a killer was close. And then Survivors abused this by looping the hook in chase, and BHVR PROMPTLY REVERTED THE CHANGE.
2 -
My problem with hook camping isn't that it's a valid tactic, but it's "anti-fun". Lets be honest when I get hooked camped I just open a youtube and start watching on my second monitor while the bubba is chilling next to me. And being a killer and face camping someone on a hook, isn't really fun for me either, so its not fun for any team.
The aura perk showing the killer won't really do anything, survivors will still kill themself on hook and the killer gets bloodpoints and more kills from hook camping.
What to do then? Reduce the overall score with a camping modifier. Lets say 99% reduced bloodpoints in this regard, sure killers problably will still face camp you, but they won't be able to go into their bloodweb and spend their 50k earnings from doing nothing a whole match. The problem is that face camping is rewarded, not discouraged.
1 -
They don't... need to condemn it to make changes to discourage it? Like the emblems discouraging face camping in the first place.
0 -
I like the concept provide the aura read dosent go to far. But i would much rather put a system in place to encourage spreading out hooks. No not emblem score actual baseline gameplay advantages. Opening fast travel zones for killer and a pre nerf mori for scoring x hooks across unique survivors an earnable mori baseline. Two birds one stone discourage camping making funner games reduce tunneling with earnable moris.
We can also do a similar thing for survivors with faster healing and repair speeds the less survivors alive the greater the bonus. Games in dbd are to linier in terms of decision making and varied win conditions. Hook camping is a symptom of a much greater problem.
Actual balance changes are necessary but in order to give you gotta take and i do agree camping is mind numbingly bad for this game. I agree it shouldnt just be the stick, a carrot to encourage other methods of play is important.
0 -
Tomatoes tom... that saying doesn't really work through text. Anyway, personally, I don't consider face camping valid because it's anti-fun. If it was not a chore to fight face campers then this thread wouldn't exist. So, I think we're on the same page.
0 -
Really combative post. I'm sorry you feel that folks who are just trying to win the game are "toxic". Your language doesn't really engender sympathy.
1 -
There should be nothing done about it. Hook camping is fine as it is. Do the gens.
2 -
Aw, shucks. Well now you done made me feel like I should be more doggone understanding toward those folks who ruin others' fun just fer ther own. Sommun shoulda just told me they were tryna win!
Deleting OP.
0 -
Except @YOURFRIEND is not wrong; Your opening post was insulting people for playing a way you don't like. And your replies are caustic towards anyone who disagrees.
You're doing nothing but trying to pick fights with people you perceive as playing in a way you don't approve of.
0 -
With all due respect, and I mean that, and I mean this: I could care less if you want to fight or not. You say your piece; I say mine. If you don't like what I say then you are not obligated to respond. If you or others are offended by my posts calling people out for making the game unfun for others, perhaps that's some deep-seeded guilt or insecurity from a behavior that you'd already guessed isn't great.
The vast majority of negative replies here are not constructive. They simply seek to dismiss or destroy any attempt at understanding or remedying the problem. I'm going to read them, but I'm also going to reply as constructively as they present.
Are there other ways to handle it? Yes. Can those ways make more friends than the way I'm doing now? Sure. But that's not my job. The people who can actually do something about the issue in the OP are the developers. Winning the heart a community member whose already stained negative doesn't help me in the slightest, and I know enough by now than to try and change people's minds on the internet.
If you or anyone interprets that fun-having or poking as particularly sharp and prickly, then I genuinely am sorry, and I'll keep an eye on myself going forward not to take it out of hand. Otherwise I'll be returning the ball just as fast as it comes down field.
2
