Nurse's range addons are unhealthy and broken

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egg_
egg_ Member Posts: 1,933

This is not going to be a rant thread, because I actually did some maths and therefore I'm bringing some quality data to support my thesis, so brace yourselves because this is going to be a long thread, with numbers too. A lot of stuff will be repeated and/or redundant, partly to understand what numbers I'm using (so you can scroll back and see how I calculated them), partly for myself since I wrote this in pieces.

First of all, we will need some data. More specifically, power times and movement speeds, that can be gathered here https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Sally_Smithson#Power_Trivia and here https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Movement_Speeds#The_Nurse

I will expose the assumptions I'm making:

  1. we are taking into consideration raw distances. This to avoid discussions like "yes but break line of sight and double back" or stuff like that, which has no value whatsoever in the points I'm going to make;
  2. the nurse 'example' we are using will have no 'dead times': therefore, we are looking at the optimal use of movement blink charging times (no seconds wasted between the moment the blinks are ready and the moment the nurse starts charging them, no overcharging of the first blink: everything will be immediate), while always holding W (always moving forward) towards the survivor;
  3. we are assuming range addons are working as intended. More specifically, as stated in the pwoer trivia, a blink maximum time is 1.5 seconds. The addons descriptions only mention that the charge time is increased (maintaining the normal charge time / meters ratio) but not the blink time, which is capped at 1.5 seconds. Therefore I assume that for blinks longer than 20 meters, the cap will always be 1.5 seconds per blink -> changes the blink movement speed to compensate;
  4. the second blink is assumed to last 1 second and to cover the full distance of 12 meters;
  5. last assumption: I'm taking into consideration the "worst case scenario" for the nurse, which is having to catch up after blinking twice and lunging, giving her the longest fatigue + full recovery of both blinks.

So let's start with the numbers. At first I will analyze the distances covered while using no addons, dark cinture alone, fragile wheeze alone, and both the addons together. Then we will compare the results with range addons. The formula used is simple:

Total distance = Fatigue duration × Fatigue movement speed + Walking time × Walking movement speed + Blink charge time × Blink charge movement speed + Blink range (max) + Chain blink time × Chain blink movement speed + Second blink range (max)

The fatigue for the aforementioned scenario lasts 3.5 seconds, at which the nurse moves at 0.96 m/s. The distance covered is 3.36 m (constant).

Charging the first full blink takes 2 seconds, at which the nurse moves at 2.89 m/s. Space covered = 5.78 m.

The first blink lasts 1.5 seconds and covers 20 meters. The second blink is assumed to last around 1 second and cover 12 meters (^assumption). To charge it, the nurse will use 1.2 seconds at which she moves at 1.16 m/s. Distance covered: 1.392 m.

Total fixed distance: 42.532 m; total fixed time: 9.2s

The only variable in this case is the time that the nurse consumes walking normally after fatigue, which is affected by the addons. Therefore, I will calculate the single cases and add up the fixed values to each one of them:

  1. no addons: walks for 2.5 seconds at normal movement speed of 3.85 m/s. Distance covered: 9.625 m. Total distance covered: 52.157 m. Total time: 11.7 s. Avg speed: 4.46 m/s
  2. dark cincture: walks for 1.7 s. Distance covered: 6.545 m. Total distance covered: 49.077 m. Total time: 10.9 s. Avg speed: 4.50 m/s.
  3. fragile wheeze: walks for 1.3 s. Distance covered: 5.005 m. Total distance covered: 47.537 m. Total time: 10.5 s. Avg speed: 4.53 m/s.
  4. both addons: walks for 0.5 s. Distance covered: 1.925 m. Total distance covered: 44.457 m. Total time: 9.7 s. Avg speed: 4.58 m/s.

Now lets compare this data with a survivor's data, namely the survivor that has just been M1ed and is running in a straight line away from the nurse. The survivor's data is obviously easier to calculate. They will have a fixed 6 m/s speed boost for 2 seconds (fixed 12 meters), then run at 4 m/s for the remaining time. I'm not considering any decelarion aspect (is there even any?): the transition between the 6 m/s and the 4 m/s is instant.

  1. no addons: 12 + (11.7 - 2) × 4 = 50.8 m. Distance difference: 1.357 m.
  2. dark cincture: 12 + (10.9 - 2) × 4 = 47.6 m. Distance difference: 1.477 m.
  3. fragile wheeze: 12 + (10.5 - 2) × 4 = 46 m. Distance difference: 1.537 m.
  4. both addons: 12 + (9.7 - 2) × 4 = 42.8 m. Distance difference: 1.657 m.

This means that the better addon you use, the more distance the nurse covers, giving a smaller window of reaction to the survivor. Bear in mind that we're not taking into account the lunge too, as it would happen instantly after the data provided. But anyway, as you can see, the actual difference between using and not using addons is merely 30 cms. The 'actual' difference is that everything is sped up as it takes place in a smaller window of time. However, this is not what this thread is looking into. This data is used as a source of comparison with the actual point of the thread, which I'm going to explain now.

When we take into consideration range addons (Heavy Panting and Kavanagh's Last Breath), we intoduce another variable: charge time. However, most of the numbers used until now stay the same.

  1. Heavy Panting only: we add 0.4 seconds to the first blink charge time with a speed of 2.89 m/s = 1.156 m, and 4 meters to the blink range. Since no addons are affecting the blink recharge time, we take the previous no addons data and simply add this. Final data is: 57.313 m in 12.1 s. Average movement speed: 4.74 m/s.
  2. KLB only: we add 0.6 seconds to the first blink charge time with a speed of 2.89 m/s = 1.734 m, and add 6 meters to the total distance = 59.891 m in 12.3 s. Avg speed: 4.87 m/s.
  3. Both addons: we add 1 second to charging time at 2.89 m/s = 2.89 m, and add 10 meters to the total range. Total distance covered: 65.047 m in 12.7 s. Avg speed: 5.12 m/s.
  4. Heavy Panting + Dark Cincture: Total Distance = 49.077 + 1.156 + 4 = 54.233 m. Time = 10.9 + 0.4 = 11.3 s. Avg speed: 4.80 m/s
  5. Heavy Panting + Fragile Wheeze: Total distance = 47.537 + 1.156 + 4 = 52.693 m. Time = 10.5 + 0.4 = 10.9 s. Avg speed: 4.83 m/s.
  6. KLB + Dark Cincture: Total Distance = 49.077 + 1.734 + 6 = 56.811 m. Time = 10.9 + 0.6 = 11.5 s. Avg speed: 4.94 m/s
  7. KLB + Fragile Wheeze: Total distance = 47.537 + 1.734 + 6 = 55.271 m. Time = 10.5 + 0.6 = 11.1 s. Avg speed: 4.98 m/s.

Looking at the average speed alone, you can already conclude how strong range addons have. But let's compare it in terms of 'closing the gap' with the survivor, by calculating the distance covered by them in the same fragment of time and then subtracting it to the distance covered by the nurse:

  1. Heavy panting: 12 + (12.1 - 2) × 4 = 52.4 m. Distance difference: 4.913 m.
  2. KLB: 12 + (12.3 - 2) × 4 = 53.2 m. Difference: 6.691 m.
  3. Both addons: 12 + (12.7 - 2) × 4 = 54.8 m. Difference: 10.247 m.
  4. HP + DC: 12 + (11.3 - 2) × 4 = 49.2 m. Difference: 5.033 m.
  5. HP + FW: 12 + (10.9 - 2) × 4 = 47.6 m. Difference: 5.093 m.
  6. KLB + DC: 12 + (11.5 - 2) × 4 = 50 m. Difference: 6.811 m.
  7. KLB + FW: 12 + (11.1 - 2) × 4 = 48.4 m. Difference: 6.871 m.

Conclusion + personal comment:

As you can see, the distance covered when using range addons is a lot higher than that of the survivor. Not only that, but the use of Fragile wheeze only, in terms of raw distance, gives almost 300% more distance than using both recharge addons together. This renders almost any effort of making distance from the nurse useless, as she can immediately close the gap. I don't think this is healthy at all for the game, and the fact that those addons have no downside whatsoever is mindblowing for me.

As I said earlier, recharge addons almost have no impact on the difference of the raw distances covered, they just impact the speed at which the game is played, and I don't want to discuss the balance of that in this thread, as the numbers are very similar.

If we want to consider a more realistic scenario, the nurse will hit the survivor, and they will run somewhere where they can break line of sight. The nurse will be forced to walk for longer than the recharge time required. Then she will blink again to catch the survivor, who is probably trying to break LoS and build distance. If they 'win' the mindgame, they have a chance to actually make said distance, forcing the nurse to be a lot more precise in her next blink series. However, outplaying a nurse with range addons is basically useless, because she can close the gap immediately.

If we take an addonless spirit for example, in the situation where she M1s a survivor and has her phase ready to go, you will find out that the duration of the phase is just enough for her to be in lunge range, if she tracks the exact same pathing as the survivor, and provided that there are no pallets or windows in between (you can do the math). Nurse doesn't care about these. So I don't think it is healthy for her to keep having these addons, at least with no downside. Taking spirit as example again, it would be as if Yakuyoke Amulet was never nerfed, or if MDR showed scratchmarks).

Finally, even though in terms of raw numbers, double range addons combination is the strongest, I personally think that the 'best' is KLB + FW, as it helps cover the gap while also giving only 1.3 seconds of 'forced' walking time while the nurse can locate the survivor again.

Again, this is not a thread about nurse, but about her addons.

NB: I posted the average movement speeds as a normalization metric, as every case examined took into consideration different times and distances covered. However, this is not a discussion on the average speed of the nurse. Don't interpret it as "wow, she's actually faster than a standard 4.6!", because every killer has a way of closing the gap with survivors, and on average they will have an overall speed higher than 4.6 m/s too (blight, spirit, billy moving extremely fast almost as much as they want, clown and freddy slowing down survivors which could be seen as them speeding up, and so on).

NBB: I really hope the math is correct. Maybe I made some mistakes here and there, if someone had the time to double check this it would do me a great favor :)

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Comments

  • tenoresax
    tenoresax Member Posts: 794
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    No they won't, none of them are gonna bother reading all of this.

    If they do bother then it's probably because they want to add proper constructive criticism.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
    edited April 2022
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    Yes. It took me a while to write, mind reading it? :(

    It doesn't bother me tbh. But I'll listen to counterpoints if they give me any, or maybe my calculations are completely wrong.

    To be fair, I could've just taken into account only the first blink only. In that case I'll just use three examples: No addons, double recharge, double range.

    1. No addons: distance = 38.765 m in 9.5s. Avg speed: 4.08 m/s
    2. Double recharge: distance = 31.065 m in 7.5 s. Avg speed: 4.14 m/s
    3. Double range: distance = 51.655 m in 10.5 s. Avg speed: 4.92 m/s

    This still kinda proves my point. I used both blinks in my calculations because a survivor will always be within double blink range, even in the worst case scenario (perks like overcome, sprint burst, boons and other hastes excluded), so it could potentially always go down the next set of blinks.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333
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    And do you think these swf killers are complaining every day have 10 hours each?

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,359
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    Do you honestly think Nurse travels at 4.46 m/s without addons?

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
    edited April 2022
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    None of your points counter what I said. My conclusion is that addons on a killer who can by basekit imemdiately close the gap with a survivor, shouldn't be this strong. I didn't talk about other killers, except spirit, who was only an example.

    It's an average speed, calculated by dividing the overall distance covered by the time required (also known as normalization). So yes, she can, by blinking twice at max range and holding W during the full process.

  • KrazyKatFTW
    KrazyKatFTW Member Posts: 203
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    Didn't read the wall off text but yeah she could easily live without them

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    Again adding nothing to the discussion, just whataboutism and trying to derail the thread. Do you have counterpoints on how these addons are actually balanced?

  • emetSdidnothingwrong
    emetSdidnothingwrong Member Posts: 290
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    You're complaining about someone littering when there is a 5 car crash and 3 people are dead, I don't really think the trash on the ground is the priority.

  • Murgleïs
    Murgleïs Member Posts: 1,046
    edited April 2022
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    Are you for real ?

    • You main point is : "hey guys, these addons make her better !". Sure, that’s the point of addons you know.
    • "But these addons are stronger than the others !". Sure, one of them is a purple rarity, you know, it’s supposed to be better than the green, yellow and brown rarity.
    • "But it’s not balanced !" Last time we got balance, we got MMR. Was that fun ? DBD is a party game, by bringing absolute balance and competition, you remove all the fun. Some balance is OK, but bringing Nurse to Trapper level is absurd.
    • "But it’s broken". No it’s not. If it was broken, everyone would be playing her and winning, and the reality is the exact opposite. If anything, according to stats, she needs a BUFF.
  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    Thank you, you're actually one of the people I was hoping would read the thread too.

    And that was exactly my point. When you 'win' a mind game with nurse, the most important thing is to build distance to force her to be extremely precise. These add-ons neutralize that part of the counterplay.

  • dreamsy10
    dreamsy10 Member Posts: 142
    edited April 2022
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    If you wanna talk about broken things in this game, let's talk about swf and dead hard first, huh? Nurse in this actual form is fine, we talk about nurse but blight with actual base 5 rushes and his broken busted addon not, how weird is this huh.

  • SuzuKR
    SuzuKR Member Posts: 3,910
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    As a frequent Nurse player, I agree. Recharge is healthy, distance isn't. Even while recharge is strong, against good players, all it does is let you try again after a miss sooner. You still do have to win the mindgame regardless at some point to land a hit. With distance add-ons, it changes how you are able to land a hit entirely to an unneeded point. Even though it really only is OP at extremely high levels of play/balanced for the majority of players (because average players are just not good on either side), it is just fundamentally bad design, and thus should be changed.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333
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  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,095
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    Exactly. I think most of the problems people have with her boil down to "get good" except in the case of range add ons. Then there's not much you can do.

  • Alphasoul05
    Alphasoul05 Member Posts: 601
    edited April 2022
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    Personally, I value her CD reduction addons far more but that is mainly a playstyle thing. I will throw matches to perform blinks most people shouldn't in an attempt to predict people's movement because it is fun. Of course, she was my main killer for 4 years before I quit.

    Her ranged addons were too strong forever and, in my opinion, simply shouldn't exist. That said you would have to put a lot of time and investment into one killer to have enough purples to last you a long time, and I don't think the green really is strong enough to justify it being nerfed. I think the most popular combo is obviously green CD + green/purple distance so a suggestion to make them not stack would be an obvious choice. Purple could use a nerf, and green I really don't think is necessary. Just my thoughts on it.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • ThatOneDemoPlayer
    ThatOneDemoPlayer Member Posts: 5,623
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    Yes

  • dreamsy10
    dreamsy10 Member Posts: 142
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    You guys won't stop until all killer's are nerfed so there won't be any killer in que, don't you? Her addons overall are fine, don't forget it takes actual skill and time to play her even with her "op range addons". If you change her range addons then first time you change the map sizes, since even nurse struggles against bad big maps and therefore some nurses play's with range since map design in this game is really bad.

  • SuzuKR
    SuzuKR Member Posts: 3,910
    edited April 2022
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    ??? I consider Nurse by far the best-designed and best-balanced killer in the entire game by a landslide. Her distance add-ons are not good design, but not OP against most players. Her recharge add-ons is good design. Map size/map design are problems of their own and need addressing regardless.

  • humanbeing1704
    humanbeing1704 Member Posts: 8,779
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    Coming from a survivor perspective I always felt like those add ons just remove a large amount of counterplay against nurse

  • dreamsy10
    dreamsy10 Member Posts: 142
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    As i said, first let's fix the actual annoying and "OP" things in this game which are obv, swf and dead hard. Let me ask all of you this question.

    How many times per day you see nurse? And then how many times -per match- you see dead hards or how many times you go against a sweat squad? Eh.

    And yes i'm not here to defend her addons, as I don't care but there are other bigger problems in this game than her addons. Let's not forget that many killer's stopped playing this game since mmr.

  • SuzuKR
    SuzuKR Member Posts: 3,910
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    Rework Torn Bookmark (+1 Blink)/distance add-ons, and everything about Nurse will be perfect.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333
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    How many times per day you play against 4 boil over swf?

  • SuzuKR
    SuzuKR Member Posts: 3,910
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    One thing being an issue does not mean other things are not also an issue. They can be addressed and acknowledged simultaneously.

  • bjorksnas
    bjorksnas Member Posts: 5,251
    edited April 2022
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    I think their fine, you still have to be good at nurse to play her and range addons on a bad nurse sending them flying across the map with a power they can't control is the counter balance, not everyone is a perfect nurse who will use the addons perfectly and the addons create a larger margin for missing and overshooting.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    This was not a thread suggesting reworks, since I didn't propose any change to those add-ons. I didn't say fix anything.

    I exposed my conclusions based on raw data. And I wanted to establish a discussion in case people had valid counterpoints to my conclusions.

    This is not a thread for feedback and suggestions, this is a thread for general discussions.

    Now, do you have counterpoints to what I posted?

  • PlaysByShady
    PlaysByShady Member Posts: 590
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    Err... no

    I didn't read the whole thing because I lost interest at the part where you essentially argued against a hypothetical scenario of perfect movement and play (e.g. optimal movement blink, not breaking LOS, etc).

    This is called a straw-man, when you over-simply a situation to the point that it's easy to dismiss. You can look at the numbers and addons for strength, etc, but not at the expense of ignoring all other factors of being able to actually put them into practice.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    Not at all, because that scenario is used to compare different numbers within the same situation, showing a similarity between basekit and recharge add-ons (while still gaining a slight advantage with the add-ons, which is exactly the point of using them), while range add-ons just have the numbers skyrocket

  • Pepsidot
    Pepsidot Member Posts: 1,659
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    Problem I have with the range addons is that they are apparently still bugged in terms of speed (although I don't know for sure) and also seem to let the nurse hit you before they can be seen to land their blink from the survivors perspective.

    And of course they make the best killer in the game much more powerful, which is concerning.

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    I don't think this is a valid argument because people not being good with nurse don't change the inherent strength of the add-ons. Same reasoning could be used for anything else busted in the game: "bad players won't make good use of it"

  • egg_
    egg_ Member Posts: 1,933
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    That's one of my assumptions. If they are working as intended, the maximum blink time is capped at 1.5 seconds (which happens for the 20 meters range), therefore for anything longer than that, the speed will be compensated.

    It's just an assumption based on what's written in Nurses wiki

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,359
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    I lost interest when you tried to argue that Nurse can sustain 4.46 m/s without addons.

  • Ruma
    Ruma Member Posts: 2,069
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  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,595
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    Read it all. I have to agree and I appreciate you actually going out of your way to run the numbers on this.

    LOS is important when it comes to nurse counterplay but I often see people forget about distance as well. I can break LOS against a nurse but if I’m still close to her it’s going to be that much easier for her to correct after the first blink (if she needs to correct at all), and extra range helps make up distance more easily after a mistake.

    None of that matters here. Yes, she has low killrates because she is very hard to learn and play properly, with or without addons. It doesn’t matter whether extra range is OP or not if the player can’t take advantage of extra range properly.

    ”You guys won’t stop until all killers are nerfed”

    Not at all. A lot of killers need buffs. And map design/map size is a problem whether you take Nurse into account or not.

  • dallasmedicbag
    dallasmedicbag Member Posts: 571
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    hundreds of hours... mate i can literally 4k every match within 2 hours of first trying her out, and then meta perks to help out too. dont spread misinformation.

  • Murgleïs
    Murgleïs Member Posts: 1,046
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    After 2 hours you are still low MMR, against baby survivors. Do at least 50 4k and then come back.

  • SkeletalElite
    SkeletalElite Member Posts: 2,681
    edited April 2022
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    Yeah nurse need some addon tweaks. I'd say green range +2 meters, purple range +4 meters. Down from 4 and 6 respectively.


    Maybe combine with a buff to the blink retracing addon so that using it doesnt consume blink charges.

  • bjorksnas
    bjorksnas Member Posts: 5,251
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    Well I don't think your argument of numbers in a vacuum is valid since it doesn't account for both the human element and actually playing around survivors so I guess agree to disagree

  • Mewishis
    Mewishis Member Posts: 305
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    The problem is Nurse is addon dependent after the power rework and addon rework and it left most Nurses' addons useless or so niche that there is zero point to using them. Yes, they are very very strong add-ons her best in fact, though only for experienced players as the ranges can mess with people learning Nurse.

    People refuse to admit that is Nurse addon reliant and is one of the worst killers to use addonless, because they still remember how awful the old nurse was to face even addonless, the new Nurse struggles immensely using just the base kit with her slow charging speed and just how strong distance is and can be used against her if she makes a mistake which can and will happen.

    That's why the only addons worth using are the range addons and the recharge addons because recharge makes it more in line with the old base kit nurse and range makes it so if they do manage to evade or are quite far away you can easily make it back the distance to the survivor.

    My question is what do you want to do with this information knowing just how strong her range addons are for her and how beneficial they are, unlike other killers the majority of Nurses' addons are useless so making them worse, would just make her in a similar situation to killers like pyramid head and hillbilly where the rest of their addons are just memey or too niche to consider being worth using in the first place.

    I can agree that it's not the best addons to have in the game, but at the same time if Nurse players do lose their other best addon combo they will be left in a similar situation to say pyramid head, so would you make her other addons actually worthwhile or just take away them is what I'm wondering.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531
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    I understand I’m not the most well liked when it comes to discussion involving nurse but can we actually discuss this? All im seeing mainly is “But survivors have broken things too” or “She isn’t played much so that means she’s bad”

    To your point I agree, Balancing add ons for nurse is essentially impossible which is why she has so many niche effect/meme ones. Problem is this has lead to people only using range/recharge because the others are so meaningless. Recharge is fine but range needs to be removed while they buff/change some of her others

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,055
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    Yes, nurse counters hold-W. Its one of two reasons why she is top-tier. the other reason being that she ignores god pallet and safe loop design. The latter design is bad design to begin. Holding W is by product of bad pallet design and health state design doing more than just extra-hits.

    I did this math long time ago, about 2 years ago when nurse was changed. I think major problem though is factoring in human error. This is realistic data if an AI was coded to play nurse and blink perfectly on top of the survivor every single time. Humans are not AI so there is mistake ratio in blinking for nurse.

    I am not sure how to put this in good words, but recharge add-ons are human nurse add-ons. range add-ons help nurse be more time-efficient in practice but there is a problem with your logic. Your assuming that all maps have an infinity amount of length and width. The maps limited size generally restricts the need for such long distances.

    Nurses generally control a certain amount of space near them. This is to say that being next to a nurse below say 12 meters is near guaranteed hit if the nurse knows where you are/knows where to blink and has enough practice/skill on nurse. Her blink movement speed and charge time are so fast at lower distances that it is nearly impossible for a survivor to exercise any counter-play towards it. At further distances, Nurse is much more fair because it takes longer to charge up blinks and it takes longer to reach destination after blinking meaning that survivor has more prediction time to anticipate the first blink destination, move away from it and this leaves nurse with 2nd chain-blink where she precisely needs to make a read in very low time frame to confirm the hit.

    Depending how accurate you are at predicting first-blink largely dictates how easy it is to counter-play second nurse-blink. Strong nurses are very precise with their first blink as it enables their success to hit 2nd blink.

  • GingerBeard
    GingerBeard Member Posts: 271
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    "This is not going to be a rant thread...", stopped reading there as you're clearly just a whiny survivor main. /s

    I can probably count the amount of times i've played a match of Nurse on one hand, and that'll probably never change. Played against her much more as survivor, but she is still rare and played by players of differing skill levels. Due to that my opinion doesn't hold much weight. All I really have to go off of is the viewpoints of other players more experienced with her. Seems to be agreed that her range addons are strong, probably too strong. Basically i'll take your word for it OP. Especially as the naysayers have not said anything to win me over, and in fact they have done the opposite.

  • Plsfix369
    Plsfix369 Member Posts: 566
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    Dude, i'm not gonna tell you to give up, i'm just gonna advise you ahead of time that the people you're arguing with are as stubborn as brick walls and doesn't know what they're talking about or wouldn't know when to quit, if they were they wouldn't have kept playing this game would have just moved on.

    also they couldn't make half the effort you did in your post with their comments even if they do know how to play Nurse.

    You're smart don't waste your potential in this game and its community. Both would just makes your brain foggy and stressed.