Nurse's range addons are unhealthy and broken
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me??
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i agree title, but remember most killers can't do much with their best addons against brain having survivors
or only playable with them
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Disagree on the addon dependant, at least for public matches. I almost always play her addonless, and those rare times I end up facing really good survivors yes, I do get defeated, but I always end up with 4-7 hooks, while running no slowdowns either. Adn that's really map dependant too (badham and yamaoka being the maps I perform the worst in). Most of my games are 2-4ks. But that's still beyond the point. Addons for a killer are fine when they complement their power in a good way. The numbers I posted show that on average, cooldown addons are well rounded, strengthening the power without overdoing it. Range addons seem simply too busted.
As others have pointed out, it is difficult to find a 'balanced' solution because we're talking about nurse. I just don't think that these addons are healthy in their current state - just the fact that in terms of raw numbers, Heavy Panting is so much better than Fragile Wheeze (same rarity) + Dark Cincture together, is beyond ridiculous imho.
The reason why I did the calculations like that is because we introduce far too much uncertainty if we start taking into consideration variables such as breaking line of sight. I wanted to show the baseline of the numbers. My counterargument to what you said is exactly the fact that maps aren't infinite size, which forces them not to run in straight lines forever. This in turn makes any added distance gained even more valuable, so the fact that a strong killer like nurse 'lost' the mindgame, and is able to close the gap immediately with one single blink without wasting any time is simply broken.
Also, I agree that my maths were basically how an AI would work, but I think you should consider that most of the added time of a human player would be spent walking at normal movement speed (3.85 m/s), and not slowed down. So, unless the nurse literally starts walking in the opposite direction from the survivor (which I deem very unlikely in the situation of a chase, because as a killer you should have an idea of the general direction the survivor ran), the survivor gains distance too slowly for the nurse not to be able to close the gap with a single blink, since she does it diagonally, in a straight line.
That's not what I said but you do you. Considering you said you didn't even bother reading, let alone understanding the comparisons I tried to make, I don't think I have any interest in continuing this conversation.
I expected some dumb commments, but only a few people are actually trying to argue in a normal way :( Namely, the two people I'm replying in this same comment. I appreciate them
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look at this way, if your within 20 meters of a nurse, a ranged add-on is not impacting her ability to blink on you. Range add-ons only matter if your further than 20 meters away from her first blink. The extra range also does not come into play for 2nd blink because nurse cannot charge fully in chain blinks. In essence, if you run out of map, there is no purpose in running a range add-on.
This is why some nurse players do not use range add-ons, but instead use double recharge add-ons. the reason being is that they can travel 20 meters with first blink and by the time they recover from fatique, they can blink again. Eventually, you will run out of map if you are staying outside of nurse's first blink range. Ranged add-on are not unfair, they just help optimize nurse's time like recharge.
The difference between her and other killers when it comes to shift-W is that holding shift-W is skillful interaction between survivor and killer player. You can compare pig's hold-W vs nurse. Pig is running forward mindlessly into forced god pallet kicks. Nurse is using her blink skills to optimize the chase. a funny comment that survivor mains would sometime say is that oppressive anti-loop killers like old slinger or artist created hold-W meta. The actual killer that created hold-W meta is nurse because she is the one killer where you cannot use loop. Your forced to shift-W in a skillful manner to outplay her blinks.
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OhTofu's recent video explains quite well how busted her range addon is:
Take a look at what happens at 10:39 if you still have your doubts about the whole range/speed issue.
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I promise I tried watching this video, but he just talks too much, I can't take it 😵💫
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Uh I am honestly way too lazy to read all this. But I agree that range addons for nurse are op. The nurse is already very strong without them when the player knows what they're doing, so she really doesn't need them.
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While I respect your opinion, I personally just cannot stand new addonless Nurse, the blinks feel so long to recharge and if you run into any teleport blocking hitboxes it's very unforgiving, while at least recharge like if you get hit with an object with some massive hitbox its way more forgiving. Basekit Nurse is much too slow for me and it makes me feel like I am intentionally making myself weaker for no reason, I already play on console and when I tried PC nurse for some reason the blinks felt way longer and more fluid.
So in my personal opinion, the old nurse wasn't addon dependent, but the new nurse is addon dependent unless you actively want to hinder yourself for whatever reason. Also to your other point, I think range addons should be changed, but not until they actually make the other addons worthwhile to use, because I see zero reasons to use anything besides range or recharge. Also a controversial opinion, but the third blink addon is overrated so the people who hate Nurse can have that addon as long as actually useful addons are given in return, I would actually love that lol.
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That is most likely the most theoretical "please nerf Nurse" thread i have ever seen.
All these numbers and stuff.......its way too theoretical.
It doesnt factor in the human equation on both sides.
People dont play like machines or perfect AI bots.
But i am sure this thread among others will be at some point the nail in the coffin for Nurse.
If enough people complain about her BHVR will nerf her.
I can already see how this might turn out. Best case scenario for Nurse after the nerf?
Imagine playing her with matchbox and the addon that makes her a 115% M1 killer for 60 seconds.
This could be the future Nurse with best addons.
And even then people would still complain. She can teleport through things, so unfair........
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Completely agree, whats the point of outplaying her then breaking FOV and gaining distance when she can just easily get in your ass again. Garbanzo design
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Other than distance addons and Torn Bookmark, everything else about Nurse is perfectly designed and balanced.
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I don't think she will be nerfed again, simply because she has bad stats. She is a very niche killer right now. OP can argue as much as he wants, and describe her bad stats as "dumb comments", it's the reality.
Nobody cares that in theory, you have this insane speed and you should not miss any blink, because in reality, nurses do miss, even with these "broken" addons and survivors do escape. We are not bots, we don't have wall hacks or enchanced sound. We do a lot of mistakes, and sometimes lose way too much distance or even the whole chase because of the fatigue and slow movement.
You don't balance a game around how bots making no mistakes would play the game in a perfect world. Remember they nerfed Pig and Pinhead because of stats.
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I hope you are right. And i agree 100% with what you said.
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I didn't say I want nurse nerfed. Her basekit is fine imho, and the numbers showed that the recharge add-ons are fine too.
I argued why I think the range add-ons are unhealthy to the gameplay. Some agreed, others disagreed, but implying that two add-ons should be reworked, doesn't mean I want her basekit nerfed
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Your math is really bad though. Nurse's sustained map traversal speed is actually terrible without any range addons, and your math was so terribly bad that the entire post should be thrown out.
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Big maps being bad design is something that should be changed regardless. Distance addons are still bad design.
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Well i have to disagree.
The range addons are quite important, so calling them unhealthy is calling for a nerf.
And no the range addons are not unhealthy for the game at all.
A Nurse without any kind of range addon is quite awful to play, especially on large maps.
And as mentioned your "thesis" is just a theoretical construct. People are playing the Nurse not some AI super bots.
There are many instances where you can make mistakes with your blinks, make a bad prediction, land in a spot where you cant teleport through a wall even with a range addon etc.
You just cant compare these numbers to real actual gameplay where real people are playing it.
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You're the one who can't understand a basic concept like average speed within a time frame, but ok
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Nurse's range addons are healthy for the game, because we have large maps, and her sustained map traversal speed is terrible without any range addons.
If Nurse is on a large map, range addons encourage her to actually traverse the map, instead of just staying near a hooked survivor. If Nurse is on a large map without range addons, she is heavily encouraged to proxy camp every hooked survivor, because she's way too slow to leave a hooked survivor to patrol generators on a large map without range addons.
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nurse range add-ons never increased blink movement speed. Nurse has max blink phase time. I believe its like 1.5 seconds, basically you cannot exceed that amount. so if you blink really far away, it will make you go faster to get your destination faster. Either way, 1.5 seconds is a lot of the time for survivor to react, it poses no issues.
Fun fact, Nurse did have add-ons that increase blink movement speed. One of them was grey called wooden horse. Nurse for reference moves at 333,33% speed in blinking. The add-on increased her blink movement speed slightly. If I remember correctly, it increased blink movement speed by 50%. 50% moving at 333% m/s is like 500% movement, so yes she did have instant blinks. she had a purple add-on that double her speed, but it reduced 1 blink charge. old nurse add-ons.... just about all of them were like ultra-rare power-level.
haha maybe they should bring one of those add-ons back as UR so you can experience good old nurse. If you think nurse is hard now a days to escape, you should seen her like 3 years ago.
10:39 is normal blink. its describing what I said about nurse's sphere of influence. they're really fast up-close and charge quickly. if your good at nurse, you'll usually get those hits almost consistently It is why she is strong. But hey, lowest kill-rate in the game, must be trash killer according devs, wraith over-performing. wink wink.
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Large maps should be reduced also. Multiple things can be addressed simultaneously.
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The devs nerfed nurse by making her need recharge addons unless your blinks are absolutely perfect. Most people are actually pretty easy to beat as nurse when they have no addons (if you know her limits). The addons in Tofu's video are broken because they make her move faster in less time and require her to charge for less time to move more distance.
Omega blink nurse is broken and should not exist. What ends up happening with the broken addons is you charge for less time to go the normal distance. That makes it so that once the nurse gets within a certain distance they literally cannot miss. As a survivor you have no reaction time and there is zero counterplay.
No addon should change the travel time of a nurse's blink as a function of: move more distance with less charge time. It would be fine if you could charge for 20% longer and get 20% more distance. Furthermore no addon should make the nurse move a greater distance faster than the normal travel time. One of the reasons Nurse was reworked was due to the fact that so many of her addons changed her blink mechanic and required constant "remembering" of how a specifc addon changed her mechanics.
While we are on the subject I still believe every killer should have a weapon cooldown animation whenever they damage a player (with the exception of the trapper). Nurse should be forced to wipe her weapon and then have fatigue on a hit. Huntress should have a delay after hitting with a hatchet equal to an M1 swing unless using STBFL). Yes that would nerf these killers but it is a required step to make all killers be on the same footing (and the next step would be making all maps be as close to the size of Coal Tower as possible).
And yes I will also be the first to say that DH should be nerfed into oblivion. If using DH gave the survivor an action interrupt (doctor's power effect is normally 2.5 seconds) for 5 seconds then it would allow you do dodge a hit but not reposition to continue looping. The most common use of DH is to avoid a hit and then vault a window or drop a pallet. A 5 second action interrupt would prevent tile chaining. This would make DH viable but not broken.
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Nurse's range addons need to exist as long as the large maps exist.
And let's be honest here. The vast majority of the people in this thread aren't trying to promote for large maps and range addons to be changed at the same time. They want the range addons to be changed way before the large maps are fixed.
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I always knew nurse was the slowest killer in the game! You really feel it playing basekit nurse on mothers dwelling.
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not to mention those range addons give her some disadvantages as well
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Yeah, as if mother's dwelling isn't miserable on literally any killer except maybe blight
If you're referring to the blink charge time added, that's not a disadvantage, because it maintains constant the ratio charge time : distance traveled. It's arguably an advantage compared to the old 'omegablink' because it doesn't screw up muscle memory
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I’m no Nurse main by any stretch, but I do have a bit of experience on her and I agree. The value you can get from the range add ons is overtuned and I’m not sure why they kept it in her rework. I do appreciate the work put in to get some raw numbers to back up the claims.
It’s late and I’m tired but I will say if anyone’s counterpoint is Nurse is hard to play, or her stats are bad, or there are more broken things in the game I think you missed the point. The unanimously agreed best killer should not have an add on that removes the one consistent counter to her power, it is bad for the game.
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The best killer on the game…at very high MMR…for a tiny minority of players…that have thousand of hours on her….having perfect muscle memory…making NO MISTAKES…using both range addons…using the best perks too…on a good map…against survivors that make 0 effort to break line of sight and counter her.
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Thats being extremely hyperbolic. I have maybe a 50 hours on her, and can have success vs most players. She isn’t that hard to learn, it took me maybe 5 hours to get a handle on her, and I’m very average mechanically. Pretty much everything you said isn’t true, she doesn’t take a god gamer to play her, just a basic understanding of her and the game’s mechanics, and ok execution.
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Show us gameplay footage of you getting a huge winstreak with nurse at high MMR.
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- No one can see MMR, so how can I show exclusively “high mmr” matches
- I never said I was unbelievably good, my point was the exact opposite, I’m average and can still succeed with Nurse.
- I can record games, but it has nothing to do with my point. I’m an average player and can win games just playing my normal style, in match made public games, so anyone can do so as well. You don’t NEED all the best add ons, perks, perfect reactions and timing, since she ignores most of the survivors defenses against a killer. Range add ons remove THE biggest counter to poor blinks, which is distance.
- Continue to be a salty troll
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Can you have consistent wins with the range addons or not ?
First you say she is easy to pick up, you did it under 5 hours. Then you say you are only average with her, not that good...I mean, do you really understand this killer ? Because, it seems you have a lot to learn.
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How is it a poor blink if the nurse makes an accurate prediction? The further away the survivor is, the more guess work involved. It sounds like a balanced mechanic to me.
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Let me clarify if there is confusion, I have success with nurse, the last 10 games I’ve played with her I’ve had 8 4k’s/3k and a hatch. That means nothing, there have been mmr tests and because of that matchmaking has been even more wonky than normal. I have no idea what my mmr is, and since it is hidden without external programs I will not know until BHVR makes it visible. When I use range add ons the games are significantly easier, because they can cover for and misplaced blinks. My point is if an average mechanical player as myself can 4K 70-80% of the time with those add ons, they are more than likely too good, and in my opinion they are far too good.
You misunderstand, the best counter to Nurse is to gain distance when she blinks poorly, not her blinking from a far distance. For example, Nurse misses a set of blinks and goes into cool down, if the survivor can get distance they absolutely want to. Range add ons mitigate that penalty to the Nurse player as they can blink farther than normal with both add ons. It’s so substantial that those first set of blinks have a much smaller time penalty, removing one of the only two counter plays to Nurse.
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I agree range add-ons are bad design but your win rate is kind of a bad argument considering you yourself literally acknowledged how MMR is.
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Yes but what I’m saying is that even with the range addons, and especially if they have broken line of sight, Nurse can’t tell where they went and has to use that extra blink charge to guess. If the survivor decides to double back and Nurse blinks max distance, she will be in an awful position.
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