What's one big change you'd make to Sadako to make her truly viable or closer to that?

I'd say mine personally would be to add disadvantages to condemnation. A different effect for each stack. like maybe stack 1 inflicts hemorrhage, 2 inflicts mangled, 3 inflicts blindness, 4 slows survivors by 2%, 5 reduces generator repair speed by 10%, 6 inflicts exposed, 7 is normal murder one

Comments

  • EntitySpawn
    EntitySpawn Member Posts: 4,233

    Old newspaper and bloody fingernails addons as base. No lullaby.

    Maybe make it to picking up a tape drops your item, I know alot of people want a better condemned but I feel that's the worst way to go about it. You want your tvs active for that mobility, the last thing you want is all your tvs turned off as a basic attack killer. (Although they can make it so only when she teleports it turns the tv off, so if you take a tape she doesnt get even weaker)

  • kate_best_girl
    kate_best_girl Member Posts: 2,184

    Yeah but she needs game slowdown which condemnation is supposed to be. Even if all the TVs stayed on she still wouldn't be able to capitalize off the teleportation since she doesn't have anything to help chase or distract survivors.

  • EntitySpawn
    EntitySpawn Member Posts: 4,233
    edited April 2022

    I'd take her mobility over a slightly better condemned, mobility is so huge especially if you can macro your gameplay.

    Alot of tough games I have only won due to my ability to teleport causing huge pressure especially on bigger maps.

    Like I said I'd only want a better condemned if the tvs stay on. Shed be worse as a basic M1 with no map control

    Edit: slowdown isnt everything, her tapes equal the worst experience for pig, think how weak pig is due to her rng and sadako shows you which tv to take it too

  • Soundchaos
    Soundchaos Member Posts: 10

    I'd make Rickety Pinwheel base kit to entice people to remove tapes a little more frequently.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,280

    Make TVs actually face the gens, they should stay turned off for less time, and you should not slow down at all when going in and out of manifest/demanifest. That's the least they can do.

  • DragonMasterDarren
    DragonMasterDarren Member Posts: 2,835

    Make Condemnation actually threatening so that survivors have more incentive to get rid of it, and therefore not be on gens for a bit

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited April 2022

    No lullaby, it literally defeats the entire point of being undetectable and a stealth killer. Remove the directional sound when she teleports, it’s bad enough they get a global queue to begin with. No slowdown with manifest/demanifest. Condemn needs to build up faster to where the survivors are actually concerned about removing it, they currently are not.

  • Marigoria
    Marigoria Member Posts: 6,090

    I actually really like this idea. With Freddy being able to teleport to gens and already being on top of it since he teleports directly to them, I think the TVS since they aren't direct on the gen could definitely be turned directly to them.

  • calem
    calem Member Posts: 533

    Well, adding to her RNG, Pig is also weak because she has no mobility. I'd say Sadako is stronger because of her ability to teleport around the map. I'd gladly take the teleport over reverse bear traps.

  • EntitySpawn
    EntitySpawn Member Posts: 4,233

    Oh yeah definitely, I think pig is one of the worst especially due to the rng.

    I was just using her as an example that slowdown isnt what makes a good killer, even if sadako got abit more slowdown it wont help her in chases etc. Hence why I said I'd rather those addons base with no lullaby

  • Clueless
    Clueless Member Posts: 340

    They could start by giving her a power. lol

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713

    She’s actually already probably as good or maybe just slightly better than Wraith so she may not need a big buff. But if her stats turn out to be too low and the devs buff her some possible ones might be

    • Remove her lullaby. I’m not sure why a stealth killer has a lullaby in the first place? Maybe they’re worried that her being 115% and almost always Undetectable would be too strong? Like I said, she may not even need a buff so that thinking might be right, but if not removing the Lullaby would be helpful.
    • Lower the TV refresh timers. The faster the TVs come back the more often she can teleport where she wants which improves her map pressure and her frequency that she inflicts Condemned.
    • Make all survivors who have Condemned build it up passively over time similar to when they are carrying a tape. Maybe if you have a tape it passively builds up more quickly than if you don’t, but either way having the Condemned build up on its own once you have a stack would increase the pressure survivors have to deal with it.
  • Kurri
    Kurri Member Posts: 1,599

    Her phase can go through pallets, windows, and breakable doors

  • OpenX
    OpenX Member Posts: 890

    I think Wraith is way better, if only for his add-ons. Wraith addons make him a straight up better M1 killer. He can apply mangled, get wallhacks, get full generator information, etc etc

    Sadako's add-ons.....do almost nothing really. Or at least not that I have figured out. Good survivors don't fall for her flickering mindgames really and that's all she has. Maybe running through people while demanifested? Idk. They can still just camp the pallet.

    Wraith at least gets his super lunge so his power can do ~something~ in chase

    All Onryo has is S tier chase music. On a few occasions the RNG gods have shined upon me and I was able to TV spam someone to death by using literally every TV in a row mid-chase

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713

    Sadako’s add-on that applies Condemned to survivors who heal each other is amazing assuming you are slugging in combination with occasional hooks. Every time someone revives a slugged survivor who has a stack they gain a stack, and if they also heal that person to full that’s another stack. And if two survivors heal a third that’s two stacks. It’s not infrequent to see survivors get to full Condemned status when you use that add-on and slug a bit.

    Her red-addon that refreshes teleports on a hit after Manifesting is also pretty great. It significantly improves how often the TVs are avaialable.

    Some of her other add-ons are also decent but those are probably her best two.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,751

    Sadako isn't in as bad a spot as some people seem to think, but there are a few things that I think could be done to help solidify her strengths without taking her overboard.

    Mostly, her TV timers should be shorter, that's genuinely the biggest one. 100 seconds is a looooong time in this game, I definitely think that could be a fair bit shorter.

    I'd also like to see the TVs changed to face the generator more reliably, but that's a minor thing, it just bugs me when I play her.

  • OpenX
    OpenX Member Posts: 890

    Against a really good team, I am typically struggling for downs with her. Let alone having the luxury to slug. Some maps can be decent and I always buy indoor map offerings on her.

    But against a good team with 3-4 dead hards on say, Eyrie of Crows, it's usually a very painful experience. Especially if it's a genrush one finishing the first two gens before corrupt is over. I don't see where you can afford to be slugging on a map like that where every M1 hit is a battle

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713

    Slugging actually improves your pressure, especially with her because of her high map mobility. By slugging you are trading securing a hook state for an additional 10 seconds or so getting into a second chase. So if you can hook one specific survivor when you down them and slug the others for example then you are keeping typically three people off gens and also focusing your carrying time on just one person to eliminate them. Plus because of all the extra teleports you get doing this you have the side benefit of building up stacks more quickly which also adds pressure and sometimes even a kill.

  • MrDardon
    MrDardon Member Posts: 4,017
    • Remove lullaby.
    • Give a different debuff for each "Condemned" Stack (Gen debuff, Blindess, Oblivious etc.) The debuffs wouldn't add to another, just a different debuff for each Condemned stack.
    • Reduce TV cooldown from 100 to 60 seconds.
    • Make Bloody Fingernails basekit.


    Those changes would probably make her more enjoyable at base, maybe not viable or "Nurse" level (which she doesn't need to be) but at least more enjoyable.

  • OpenX
    OpenX Member Posts: 890

    Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that it's very difficult to slug a good team with a pure M1 killer. An unbreakable or two would shut that down so quickly that it's probably not going to be worth the risk. It's different on killers who down people easily.

    On a super safe and brightly lit map; with lots of people being greedy because of dead hard, I don't see where you are slugging everyone bar some massive misplays.

    If I was in a position where I can hook one person and slug multiple others, I probably could have won that game just using pop and actually hooking them the majority of the time. Sadako is exceptional at delivering Pop, I will say that. Assuming the survivors don't just turn off your power basically for free.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713

    I can definitively tell you slugging works well with Sadako against good teams. I’ve done it personally and there’s streamers who do it regularly.

  • OpenX
    OpenX Member Posts: 890

    Ok well I will give it a shot next time I am playing her. What perk build do you run on her?

  • Wampirita
    Wampirita Member Posts: 809

    Condemnation should be more threatening. Like make it build up passively, but slower than when holding a tape.

    Or make it that survivor is exposed when the bar is full.


    Legit my gameplay vs her is to collect a tape as soon as possible, turn off all tvs and return the tape. She's chasing me because I'm full, but I can just put the tape back right in front of her, cuz there's literally no threat.

    Yeah, there's been some Sadako players that absolutely clapped me, but never condemnation was a threat.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713
    edited April 2022

    Depends on how much you want to slug versus hook. For extra slugging though Jolt and Infectious Fright are both good since Jolt gets you extra slowdown per down without needing a hook or kick and Infectious Fright tells you immediately if the next survivor you want to chase is nearby or if you’ll need to teleport to a gen farther out.

    Also having a perk to help in chases is useful since, like you said earlier, once she’s in a chase that’s a weak point. So Save the Best for Last or Bamboozle for instance are both good depending on whether you want to go for followups after injures with STBFL or if you want to shut down very strong windows at certain loops. You could also try the Enduring plus Spirit Fury combo since part of a slugging strategy is playing the long game and forcing a lot of pallet drops to create dead zones for the mid and late part of the match.

    If you only want to slug very occasionally then Scourge Hook Pain Resonance and Dead Man’s Switch is a decent combo since you get the regression from the hook and can then immediately teleport to the gen that it pops to force it to be blocked. Plus with her teleporting Dead Man’s Switch has extra value in general since she can pressure multiple gens in rapid succession. You can also try Make Your Choice if you plan to hook more since you can often leave a gen quickly with her, then when a rescue happens usually use a nearby TV to try for a potential Exposed hit.

    In either case a lot of people would also recommend Corrupt Intervention as a way to slow down the early game to give you more time to get those early downs and pallet breaks you want for the long game. If you really want to focus quite a lot on early game pressure you could try Lethal Pursuer, although keep in mind that her TVs won’t be on until after Lethal Pursuer ends so you’ll be doing a standard Stealth ambush on someone with it instead. Likewise for Whispers to help get an early hit or down faster, plus Whispers has an added benefit with her teleport that if you teleport somewhere and see no Whisper ping you immediately know to move elsewhere.

    As far as add-ons go, especially if you’re slugging, the Green add-on that adds stacks to survivors who heal each other is huge. And that red add on that refreshes TV is also great. If you don’t happen to have the red add-on then you could maybe use the add-ons that reduce the TV refresh timers to get a little bit of that same effect, or possibly the add-on that speeds up the Condemned timer on people with tapes if you’re worried about someone using tapes to shut down TVs. (The goal being not so much to kill the person with the tape directly but to keep them off gens a bit more.)


    Regardless of the build though, I think the main things with Sadako are

    • She’s weakest in an extended chase, you definitely want to lean in to spreading pressure on multiple survivors. So having a solid macro game of knowing where everybody is and which survivors to chase over others and so on is really important. If a survivor drops a pallet, take it as a win that you get to remove the resource and move on to pressuring someone else off a gen unless you think you have an opening to follow up quickly on the pallet dropper.
    • Just because she’s Undetectable doesn’t mean they can’t see her coming. Take advantage of her short height to help her approach survivors from behind obstacles where they’re less likely to see her, and try not to always look directly at gens when you approach them to mitigate Spine Chill’s impact.
    • Prioritize keeping track of Boons and snuffing them when possible. Like all ambush killers Circle of Healing is somewhat strong against her if left unchecked. Fortunately once you know where they place a Boon the first time survivors tend to repeat placing Boons in the same spot so you’ll have a pretty good idea where to look when they replace it or run off to heal. And with the TVs there’s a good chance a TV is fairly near whatever Boon they place, maybe even within hearing distance.
    • It’s a small thing but her partial invisibility after Manifesting can help her mindgame at loops. Head one direction around a loop while Manifesting, then as soon as they lose line of sight backtrack. There’s a decent chance you will still be invisible while backtracking and the survivor will run right into you.
    • Obviously Unbreakable is a thing but since it only works once per match it’s actually not as impactful as you might think when you slug the same person multiple times. But as above watch out for Boons since Exponential might give them multiple free revives, and if you are running any Hexes keep in mind they might have Soulguard. (And of course No Mither survivors you may just want to hook out versus slug. But honestly if someone runs No Mither that’s usually good for you regardless. 😄)
    • Lastly when I say “slugging” I don’t mean necessarily going full throttle for a four person slug win. The idea is more prioritizing your hooks where you focus hooks on one survivor and mostly slug the others. And once you get one person eliminated then you have more time to capitalize on hooks more freely, especially if in the preceding part of the match you’ve eliminated a bunch of pallets to make the late game chases much easier.
  • AetherBytes
    AetherBytes Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 3,046

    halve tv recovery times. Survivors shouldnt be able to yoink a tape and be safe for almost all of the gen progress.

  • Tryharder
    Tryharder Member Posts: 173

    condemn gives other effect instead of a quick mori. Like she gain more invisibility and some debuffs on based on how many stacks.

    i don’t know what is the point of her actual ability you go semi invisible but still have a lullaby and can’t attack. Personally I would like to see a actual invisible killer like give her complete invisibility and no flickering crap. She already can’t attack so it can be used to actually patrol gens without being uav scanned every second by swf

  • PeaceNGrease
    PeaceNGrease Member Posts: 673

    Not gonna lie, ai like the idea of her invis getting stronger with more stacks. That would definitely take rework amounts of time tho, so we wouldn't see that for years

  • Aurelle
    Aurelle Member Posts: 3,611

    Make survivors carrying a tape suffer from the Oblivious status effect until it's deposited. And remove her unnecessary lullaby.

  • MigrantTheGreat
    MigrantTheGreat Member Posts: 1,379

    I'm probably being bias when I say this!

    Kit:

    GET RID OF THE LULLABY! WHAT IS THE POINT IN EVEN BEING A STEALTH KILLER IF YOU HAVE A LULLABY!!

    TVs: These take way too long to turn back on weather a survivors turns them off or if you project through them. My solution has to do with a add-on.

    Add-ons:

    Sadako needs add-on help because her add-ons are either useless or BHVR was too cautious as always

    Old Newspaper: Base Kit, better mind game potental at loops

    Clump of Hair: Base Kit, give her a better chance at ambushing unsuspecting survivor's

    Mother's Comb: Base Kit, TVs are her power why shouldn't she know when a TV has been turned off

    Iri Videotape: Base Kit, I'd change this to where maybe if survivor's carry a tape they become exposed and reveal there location until they get rid of the tape!

  • Wampirita
    Wampirita Member Posts: 809

    This wouldn't be a stupid idea if she could pass through them, she can pass through survivors, why she can't phase through stuff she can destroy anyway

  • kate_best_girl
    kate_best_girl Member Posts: 2,184

    Shes way worse than wraith since wraith actually has a stealth ability and chase powers.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713

    She can actually Demanifest and Manifest mid-chase no problem while Wraith comes to almost a complete stop while Decloaking so she's actually easier to use than Wraith in a chase in a way. And she has better map mobility than Wraith, plus a lower height with on and off invisibility which can even make her a bit better than Wraith at not being being spotted depending on the situation. And while she doesn't usually get kills with her Condemned it does provide some indirect slowdown over the course of the match and, if you're aggressively pressuring the survivors, does get full Condemned stacks not that infrequently. (Especially if she uses the Green add-on that adds stacks when survivors heal each other, combine that with slugging and the stacks build up very quickly!)

  • Sasu_Crow
    Sasu_Crow Member Posts: 12
    1. Remove her lullaby. I've had much more success at throwing on monitor and abuse and just not demanifesting save for teleports than "stealthing" with her lullaby. Stealth and lullaby do not go hand in hand for obvious reasons. Or significantly decrease the lullaby range. 24 meters is too much. By the time I approach a gen that I heard being worked on, half the time the survivor has already made it behind a tree. Her lullaby is essentially a 5th perk for all survivors who aren't already running spine chill. Because they know you're coming before you even knew you were going. Go figure.
    2. However, the biggest rework needed is for condemned. Tapes are completely a joke right now and often serve as more of a BM distraction than not. I understand that a free mori shouldn't be easy to achieve, but a killer's main ability shouldn't be completely and utterly useless and unused in a majority of games. A condemned survivor who gained their final stack of condemned through holding a tape should be punished. A survivor in chase should not be able to pop a tape in your face "as counterplay". In fact, as soon as they gain their final stack of condemned from holding a tape, they should become Exposed and unable to insert the tape for a full minute. "But the survivors at 4 stacks of condemned won't be able to strategically remove tvs." Good. Why is game balance for this killer alone centered around the survivor's ability to control the killer? The survivor will have to choose a generator near an already powered down tv or accept the risk that Sadako might teleport to them. Or they will assume the risk of becoming fully condemned and have to hide for a minute. Do something to make condemned not entirely meaningless. Making it to 4 stacks should be something to be avoided, not something easily remedied at your own delight.
      1. A survivor who gained their last stack from Sadako teleporting is not (entirely) a Survivor mistake so perhaps you could punish that less severely. Sadako should see condemned stacks as not knowing that information makes it difficult to determine when condemned was gained legitimately or if its just being used as a free alternative to Diversion. Otherwise, wholesale replace it. Perhaps, allow Sadako to see condemned stacks as base kit, and make an add on where teleporting near survivors gives her current ability of adding one stack.
    3. Reduce her TV cooldowns. In full SWF sweat lobbies, you're only going to get about 3 uses MAX out of a single TV before all 5 gens have popped. Don't buff it where her iri is unnecessary, but where it is now its more safe for survivors to literally ignore TVs and gen rush. Give them a reason to turn TVs off and assume the risk of grabbing a tape.
  • Nos37
    Nos37 Member Posts: 4,142

    Yes!

    This way, at least I'll know which way I'll be facing after a teleport so that I'm not screwing myself over by teleporting ahead of a survivor during chase.

    ----

    I just want to vault a window at any time while demanifested... Why do I have to wait in line for the survivor to finish vaulting first??

    It's not like I can manifest while vaulting and somehow end up fused with the survivor. Pls fix.