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Davids Sexuality
So this may be a bit long but after reading that people feel that its forced/wasnt the right character/he has a ex thats a woman I feel like it should be talked about. I should not that these are all my personal opinions and it is kinda long so feel free to skip if you dont want to read.
1) "Making David King Gay Feels Forced"/"He had an ex that was a woman"
On the surface level, perhaps it may seemed forced but if you dig deeper beyond just scratching the surface, you will see that it truly does not feel like that. From the moment that we are born we are constantly learning about ourselves. We dont just come out of the womb and announce that we are gay, straight, bi, etc. These things take time to learn and sometimes you may never learn these things about yourselves(especially depending on how your parents raised you)
The fact that people feel that David having a girlfriend in the past and now coming out as gay is considered a retcon in lore really dont take into account(at least to me anyway) that maybe this is before he learned more enough about himself/finding out that he was gay. We live our lives through learning, experimenting, and experiencs; people change emotionally, physically, and mentally over time so the fact that people see this as a retcon doesnt make much sense to me.
2) "This was not the right character to choose to make gay"
Why does this character not feel like that? I see that people say that "they didnt get gay vibes from David Kink," my answer to that is, why do you mean that someone gives off gay vibes? Just like anyone else, gay men come in many shapes, sizes, personalities and more. Its not just someone with a fruity drink and saying "yaas queen" These could be considered harmful stereotypes but to be honest theres a lot of of us out there that are like that. I have gay friends that you wouldnt know are gay just by looking at them but thats because they arent into the typical things that some people would deem "gay behavior" Like personally I dont find drag shows fun to watch(im more of a criminal minds kind of gay myself) and some of my friends are appear as masuline as could be love watching those types of things. It all depends on peoples personal taste.
Comments
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They took the easy path. Could just have made the next upcoming char one of the letters, with bigger lore expansion. Turning some fictional character gay to please the crowd is just all around stupid.
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As soon as I saw the news I new there would be a Hugh fuzz. I think it's awesome we got the first confirmt character and to be honest no matter what character they pick people would complain that there aren't gay vibes from them (what ever that means) and if they did a brand new char to be the first gay every body would complain that it's a toke character so you can't make them happy :/
On another note I would love them to make a Charakter that "gives gay vibes" probably an male that is very feminine in its style and then two month later make a time that's reveals he is like barney Stinson and picks up girls on the fly just to mess with the people making fun of him
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Why do you assume that he wasnt gay to begin with? They kept the majority of the characters vague enough that they never confirmed they were gay or straight. Felix has a wife but that doesnt make him strictly straight. Why does david having a girlfriend in the past mean he cant come out as gay later? it isnt retconning, its exploring the previous characters that they have.
I much prefer them exploring the characters that they have rather than constantly adding new ones and not giving original the ones the love, attention, care, and stories that they deserve. If they just kept adding characters without enough story then we would end up in another overwatch situation where the lore is a mess.
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...Trickster?
(I have to admit that I have no idea who Barney Stinson is)
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Trickster definitely has some gay vibes. Ace Visconti has gaydar going off in my head.
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How I met your mother great show basicly a very charming guy that only wants one thing from woman and is very good at it.
Yes like trickster that certainly fits very well. Thats something I do myself I am a straight man I'm married and have a kid but I am very feminine I like to wear stuff that typically is woman stuff but I don't label genders on cloth and since I'm more from a more rural area from a small village I get strange looks often
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I just think the reveal was bad and it makes BHVR look like they just did it for brownie points and to stop people asking about an eventual rep character. If the reveal happened naturally through his lore and the tome, and people were allowed to find it out themselves, it would have been way less controversial imo. Still controversial, but less so.
All in all, personally I was happier with their original mindset of leaving every character's sexuality up to one's own interpretation, but representation is welcome and always good(even if it appears lazy)
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Quite ironic because lgbt always uses david as an example of straight character because of his "lore" and now "lore doesn't matter much (long explanation why) and he can be gay" btw
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its not. Its lazy.
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That's very long time ago :D
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I think I've heard more david x dwight than what ever it is your making up.
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Actually in a lot of the posts we use him as an example of a straight canon relationship (not character) and while it's entirely possible he could be bi, or gay, having confirmation of a homosexual relationship (not character) to equal things out would've been nice, but good way to completely misinterpret our arguments!
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Right?
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It's funny you mention Overwatch when this situation is the same copy/paste "We've made one of our characters gay to shut up the masses" that Overwatch did.
It's less of just having a gay character, and more of having an LGBT+ character that you connect with from their initial lore instead of it being thrown in after.
It's the whole throwing in after the fact that makes it appear forced. After the outrage, after the demands, and after the authenticity. It's also the same situation copy/pasted from many other game companies. "We need a gay character" "This character is liked by the gays" "This character is now gay". Instead of connecting with your LGBT+ community, researching their past, what they had to deal with, what they were feeling, and the characters they connect and empathize with to use as references, etc. Basically ignoring all the work and research into good character creation.
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I love this argument so much. Not because it's good, oh no, but because it implies you'd need to design a character around their sexuality.
Believe it or not, that's not how people work -- your sexuality being a part of your identity, I mean. People you see on Reddit whose "identities" revolve around jacking it to anime do not have personalities -- rather, they use the fact that they jack it to anime as a placeholder for their distinct lack of an interesting personality.
I am not trying to pretend there aren't people whose sexualities play a part in who they are now, of course -- being an Achillean, asexual man has obviously effected my life, but I'd not say it is to the ######### point that it is a major part of who I ######### am.
The announcement wasn't just "turning a character gay to please the crowd" or "taking the easy path," it's just a neat little thing BHVR decided to announce. I assure you, many people, myself included, wouldn't really have cared if BHVR ended up never confirming that a character in their game is gay. Unlike the people who are crying about "taking an easy path" and "virtue signalling," we don't quite care about the who other people are into, including those fictional, even if they do not align with ours, as long as it isn't some troll/offensive identity like superstraight.
Are we happy that David is gay? Most of us are, yes -- it feels nice to know a character you play as, or just like, has had similar experiences to you.
Would we have been mad if BHVR didn't make him gay? No? He hadn't been announced as gay until recently, and we were pretty happy with headcanoning him as gay, so the announcement literally didn't change anything for us outside of a nice feeling, our "gay David" headcanon coming true, and people coping really hard about the sexual preferences of a character most of them only levelled up for Dead Hard.
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I mean, the article linked in the other thread mentioned the research that they did on the subject, so idk.
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I've got zero problems with this. This wasn't a race I had a horse in either way (I'm ace, character sexuality means extremely little to me), but I'm familiar enough with the concept. And to be honest, I think creating a new character to be the 'first LGBT+ character' has its own pitfalls that'd have people up in arms with how they were just introduced to be the token gay person, their whole character identity is too focused on their sexuality and not as just a person (even whether or not that's true - that tends to be pretty subjective, and I suspect it's what people would be focused on due to the circumstances of their release), the implication that none of the existing characters can be LGBT+, etc. There's no perfect way to do this. As long as they actually do something with it in his tome and it's not just a token tweet type deal that's never brought up again, I'll be satisfied.
As for the whole "David King had a girlfriend!" deal I keep seeing around - as OP says, many LGBT+ people figure out their identities through life experiences where they follow what seems like the 'normal' thing to do with their life, it never clicks, and they plod along with varying levels of dysphoria until they realize (or accept) where the problem is. It's not remotely uncommon for gay individuals to spend years in lukewarm hetero relationships before they make the connection that what they feel isn't just what everyone else feels, or specifically an issue with their partner/their relationship/themselves. I think David's a pretty good choice for this - possibly just because I'm overexposed to AO3 where everyone makes David gay anyway, but also because he's already got a fully formed identity that rather coincidentally bucks most stereotypes of gay men, so he can't remotely be construed as an insensitive take. We'll see how integral it is to his lore, but if anything, the sheer backlash against what seemed like a stereotypical macho man also being a gay man just shows how fragile some people are about their identities and how... bizarrely threatened people feel by LGBT+ themes encroaching in their media.
I'm looking forward to what they do with his upcoming tome. There is a pretty fine line to be walked here - if they lean way too hard into it, or it feels like his actual character has changed from his previous story in tome 3, or it feels disconnected from everything else David King was, then it could fall back into pandering. But I feel like there's a lot they could do with it, and I'm pretty optimistic about where this is going.
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Yeah their whole "We did research, because we said we did, please believe us" article. Which in the article it seems their research reached the limits of a proactive reddit forum, and no further. Literally you can change every word of Behavior to Blizzard, and every word of David to Tracer and you get the same thing that happened in Overwatch.
Next they will be randomly mentioning Yui's gay with an image, because of their "research". (Popular character liked by the LGBT+ community, same thing happened with Soldier 76 in Overwatch).
Though I have no place to argue, by technicalities it means BHVR met their promise, and this represents some people I am sure. It appears to be more of a marketing direction which is what is disappointing to see. I had expected professional writing and story-telling for a whole new character that many can relate to, but at the same time be it's own story (which makes it more relatable).
Edit: Though they did mention in the article they plan to BRING more LGBTQ+ characters to the game, so fingers crossed, we might get a more relatable LGBTQ+ character. I'm not giving up hope.
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I mean, do you have a reason to doubt them beyond pessimism?
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Do you have reason to believe them beyond them just saying they did?
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I think it would've been a lot more meaningful if they had made an original chatacter part of the LGBTQ community.
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Nope, because I haven't seen the end result yet.
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They should have just put it in the tome for people to figure out through the lore instead of announcing it, that way it would feel more natural and not make it seem forced
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it's worth remembering this isn't all the rep that's gonna be added, i'm hoping the time between bhvr first announcing their work with gaymerx and now has been spent working on that. we'll have to see as more tomes and characters are added but i'm optimistic personally
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Agreed.
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Yeah there is still more to come.
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Rewriting an established characters lore feels very...idk. I don't think forced is the right word.
I could change my mind depending on how BHVR continues but it feels like they're looking for any good will they can get right now and that puts a bad taste in my mouth.
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Quite ironic that red herring is part of the shrine. :)
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gay man, no this is very ######### meaningful imho.
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This is good criticism, but I promise all of this was carefully considered.
First, to the notion that this was just the easiest way, that's not quite true. We're working on new characters anyway. Adding this to a new character's lore instead of David's is no more or less work; at the end of the day, new characters are still in the works.
(I know you haven't mentioned this, but I have seen other people point it out) I just want to make it clear that we're not rewriting a character's lore. I will not go into details on what exactly happens in this upcoming tome (you'll just have to find out for yourself ;) ), but we are not ignoring the past. People often learn things about themselves as time goes on.
That said, we did carefully consider our options, and there are ups and downs for both existing and new characters. For starters, new characters tend not to release with a lot of lore. Typically they'll have a short story that highlights their talents and personality, giving some insight into what they're good at and what kind of perks (or powers, for Killers) they'll have. Trying to shoehorn their sexuality into their lore would likely come across as very forced, and tokenism is one thing we absolutely wanted to avoid. It was important to us to make sure the first character- whoever they were- could stand on their own with fully fleshed out lore rather than focusing entirely on their sexuality. It's a part of who he is, but he is David King first and foremost. Even for a new character, odds are we would have preferred to build up their lore a bit before confirming anything (which in the end, leaves it feeling like a retcon anyway).
We worked with GaymerX to tell a story that fit with our existing characters' lore, and after many discussions, we all agreed that David King would be the best fit. I won't spill the beans just yet, but hopefully you'll find that his story in the tome does this justice.
On a personal level, I also wouldn't be too crazy about the first confirmed gay character being locked behind a DLC paywall. There's a lot of distrust, and rightfully so, with companies promoting pride for a profit, and I'm glad that's something we've always steered clear of. This is a subject that hits close to home for a lot of us and I'm grateful that it was handled with care.
All that aside, a new original LGBTQ+ character in the future is totally possible, and we absolutely are not ruling that out. Representation was long overdue and we wanted to make sure the first confirmed character was handled properly. Now that we've broken the ice, it'll be a lot easier to approach these subjects up front and/or in more subtle ways.
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I'm just waiting to read the lore. If it's well written, I'm happy. If it isn't, that'll suck, but it's the first at bat, they've got time to work on what doesn't get over.
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Agree with all of this.
No matter what direction they went, people would have trotted out the exact same complaints about the gesture being forced, pandering, insincere, etc.
I still say they should never have wandered into the topic in the first place, but since they first started this whole mess with David's lore it's fitting that they address it with him too. And honestly, I don't think it's very much of a 180 in his characterization. It's not like his girlfriend was brought up to imply he was enjoying a healthy, loving relationship.
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Well, then I'm glad it is meaningful to you.
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the butchered site i read it on made the formatting a nightmare but it was fairly standard for most of it. didn't explicitly go "DAVID KING IS GAY GAY HOMOSEXUAL GAY" but it was definitely there. then eventually we shall reach the final 2 sentences and i broke and now feel hollow inside.
imo it's well written.
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Wonderful!!!
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Especially in that all leopard clothing too.
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My complaint about this whole situation isn't that David is now gay, it's that we was turned gay just to pander to LGBBQWHATEVER9++, the twitter implies
1º BHV admitting there were no BBQW chars in DBD.
2º BHV due to 1º decided to turn a character gay.
This whole situation wouldn't have disturbed me if this announcement never existed and we just had the lore, or if it just came out and said that David is gay it just had never came up, but having it completelly just worded as "ohh yeah we need more representation so we gay-beamed david" is just insulting for everybody and comes off as pandering.
Character progression is a thing, but this is not that and is in fact the opposite, randomly swapping a characters sexuality as if it were just a level you could pull because for you BHV it is, but irl it's not and the how the message inplies you just did is insulting.
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i dont get how he was possibly "turned" gay when he wasnt explicitly said straight to begin with
nor do i get how creating a new character would be more impactful, at all.
representation is representation. if it was a new character it'd be "ugh tokenism". there was no good option.
i've read the accompanying story and i love it. i love this move. i wish it wasnt shouted about on twitter and people could discover it by themselves through the lore (like with saati in paladins, people found it out through her in-game voice lines to other champions before it was confirmed by a dev) but i digress- i am happy with the outcome. very happy.
and now it is time to
convert the restsee what else we get4 -
Just a heads up that is sounds slightly homophobic and ignorant when you repeatedly and purposely can’t even just use LGBT+ - I realise there are more letters now, but you don’t have to use them all, just be respectful. 😊
Would you have been okay if it was just in the lore? I feel like part of the reason it was made as an announcement is that not everyone likes the lore, but I’m sure there are, as is clear from twitter and the forums, people who would want to know because they don’t want to play a gay character - some people are uncomfortable playing a fictional character gay or straight - go figure. Others will be excited and will make them curious about the tome lore.
as for turning a character gay - that isn’t what happened, and that’s been stated. Just because he had a girlfriend in the past, does not mean he was straight. Lol. Fun fact, myself, a lesbian, other lesbians, and other gay men - have dated the opposite sex because we either - weren’t fully accepting of ourselves / confused / ashamed / worried about safety or for many other reasons.
Some people never come out, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t gay. A lot of straight people don’t understand the confusion/fear of coming out, and what we may do to try and bury those feelings or how we come to terms with them - everyone is different and experiences things differently. Some of us come out really early, some people don’t.
I won’t go on, but for you to say it was done on a whim, or they just randomly swapped his sexuality is… well. Yeah.
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Calling us BBQW/LGBBQWHATEVER9++ is honestly more insulting than this lmao
I find it funny that most people calling it pandering aren't lgbt people, and as a queer man I don't find it pandering at all. IMO I think pandering would have been creating a brand new character JUST to be announced that he is gay. I read someone say on the forums earlier that they liked that it was an existing established character with established lore already - and I tend to agree. A lot of lgbt+ people, including myself, have a growth period of finding this out, including being in straight relationships and it does feel more like a coming out story. That being said it would have been more exciting hearing about it in the lore/tome videos and such than just straight up said in a twitter post. But that's just me and whatever and either way, cool to be represented
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I haven't seen it on the Forums but I did see a few instances of some concerning behavior on Reddit.
Mostly it was of people who professed to be a part of the LGBTQ community saying they didn't like it and other people accusing them of lying about being LGBTQ, simply because they didn't like the change.
I also don't know if I'm allowed to state my opinion on how BHVR handeled this but I've got some red flags from it.
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How to make horror horrible.
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Yeah, that would be what I'm talking about.
Maybe I'm being too hard on BHVR and maybe I should be giving them the benefit of the doubt, but they've burned through pretty much all the goodwill I'm willing to extend to them as a company in the last year.
Something about them announcing it like that really rubs me the wrong way, idk why.
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I dunno if I quite agree with that rather extreme interpretation, but I can't quite put my finger on why their announcement rubs me the wrong way.
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I understand you can't quite figure out why, could it be any of these?
Is it BHVRs track record? The state of the game? The communities reaction? How long it took them, the amount of effort they put in?
Any of these things?
I'm genuinely curious because I think I get a similar feeling, the actual changes and the content is fine there's no issues there.
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I think his lore wouldn't want to him to come out in such a dramatic fashion. I would think he would'nt advertise what he does very openly, unless confronted about it most likely in a pub. Then it would account to "why yes i am gay" smack. I doubt we;'d see David dressing as ugly bearded drag queen on twitch or riding a unicorn float in the Sydney mardi gra.
For me i don't mind what people do in their bedrooms as long as its consensual.
My issue with this is if i tunnel that shirtless David out of the game, (because i hate shirtless inequality) am i going to be branded something.
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1) good news, that's not what his lore does. At all
2) no you won't this conversation has been had for over a year and there's been no evidence of people who weren't intentionally tunneling for the pride flag being banned.
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Definitely not the state of the game.
Probably the rest though, in varying degrees.
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Everyone complaining on how it feels forced when his lore entries aren't even out yet.....
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But they did for racism with blackface.
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