Nurse needs nerf

Well, yea. Above all, range addons on nurse are really fair and balanced. :')

She has some crazy add ons. I play her sometimes and I suck without add ons with her but when I put those distance add ons I destroy survivors so they need nerf. I can't imagine how quickly experienced nurse will end matches with them.

Yeah, I'm sorry to still be inexperienced after 2.5k hours and more than 18k blink attacks. Imagine how insulting it is for these teams who regularly call me a "god Nurse" (*) but were in fact destroyed by a beginner.

I'm sorry for SupaAlf too, as he still make these "beginner" mistakes from time to time after more than 5k hours, despite being one of the strongest Nurses out there.

Nobody to suggest the Nurse was AFK? Strange, usually there is always someone to find the worst excuse to fit his narrative.

(*) To which I invariably explain : there is no such thing, it's just "survivorship bias" (look it up). I just had a one good match and they were on the receiving hand.

Coming from someone who declares turning about in place to be the pinnacle of DbD gameplay, I'm going to have to take that as a compliment.

all the nurse mains defending nurse like she hasn't been number 1 for years lol

sorry guys, she needs to drop to A or B tier 😴

Yes I did. Your opening statement - in reference to my pointing out that Nurse having to guess where to blink is a mind-game - was "If what you constitute as a mind game IS a mind game - then back-revving with Hillbilly and Tentacle whips in the open are pinnacle of mind games."

We were discussing mind-games, and what constitutes mind-games. And I was very clear that for the Nurse to guess where to blink is a mind-game. You somehow then made a leap to assert that Billy's back-revving, etc, the pinnacle of mind-games!

Now, whilst I will agree that back-revving, etc, is a mind-game (will he charge, won't he charge, who knows?), it's hardly the pinnacle of mind-games, and I believe you were trying to be sarcastic in making this point, thusly attempting to negate the actual weight of Nurse's blinks.

The crucial difference here is that with Billy's back-revving, or Huntress's hatchet, etc, the survivor has zero control over whether the killer will perform that action or not. All they can do is plan for an either/or scenario.

However, when Nurse is holding her blink, she is definitely going to blink. She cannot cancel it, and the longer she holds it, the more problematic it can get. There is 100% a mind-game here because you can use your knowledge of Nurse's mechanics - that is assuming you have any - to force her into mistake.

It's a mind-game, and it's a completely fair mind-game because it's one the survivor has good chance of manipulating.

I know what you're saying. You're failing to realise that by side-stepping any projectile etc, you're losing distance. It is a mind-game on the side of the killer, and not a particularly fair one IMHO because the survivor has little influence. Unlike Nurse's blinks which I believe are much fairer.

She doesn't need a nerf. She's hard to pick up, has a massive skill ceiling, the only reason people whine on the forums is because it's hard to understand how to counter a nurse. It's easier when you've played her before, break LOS, decide to hold w or double back. If you pull off a successful double back you get 40+ seconds of chase automatically. The fact is, she's unsual, but when you learn to counter her she's very risk reward. The main goal is to get distance whenever she's in fatigue. Just pactice and you'll learn how to beat a nurse.

Literally everything is "agree to disagree" territory when you're discussing with someone who refuses to accept simple facts.

Is the sun a big ball of burning gas? I dunno, it could be made of cheese. Let's agree to disagree?

Fact is, you're saying that the Nurse having to guess which way a survivor is going to go, and having to make predictions, etc, is not a mind-game... when it literally involves having to make guesses based on cues the survivor is giving and completely in control of! Seems to me the very definition of a mind-game.

You have both proved the point in spades with these statements:

if anything that involves guesswork, anticipation, or uncertain prediction in this game is considered a 'mind-game', then literally every faculty within Dead By Daylight is.

My friends, you're saying that the minute decision to walk in any particular direction at any time for any reason is a 'mind game' if it is at all influenced by knowledge of the opponent's actions; which, at its core, is every fiber in the tapestry of this game's design. If your definition of mind game is any action made based on your opponent's action, this is the truth.

Correlating mind-games to poker is more than fine.

I just don't see how literally every single movement or decision made in the game is so lofty as to be considered on-par with Poker.

She has a very high skill floor. People who manage to get good with her deserve their victories.

Given your statements about her, I'm not sure you are in a position to call anybody a rookie.

Please actually read what I write before making such statements.

My first comment - the one that started it all:

"She does NOT need a nerf - what she needs is a rework.

Right now, she teeters on a hyper fine edge.

For 80% of players, Nurse is incredibly punishing and super hard to get used to. Her power is thorny and unwieldy in the hands of newer players and a new survivor player vs a new nurse will win just about every time.

The disproportionate performance between the 'average' nurse player and the 'good' nurse player is staggering.

When an average player gets behind her, she can be easily punished by survivors and her power can seem unreliable at times.

But a good player can wipe the floor with survivors without breaking a sweat.

Her kit completely circumvents many parts of normal gameplay, which not only makes her incredibly strong in her 1v1, but also chokes many of the potential perks at her disposal.

There has never been an actual nurse player that ever thought 'Oh no! A pallet/window! My greatest weakness!'

There has never been a nurse that has brought Spirit Fury or Bamboozle.

There's no need.

She feels rotten to play as until you finally 'git gud', then it's hard NOT to cut players down.

Is there counterplay? Yes. But a lot of it involves stealth and breaking line of sight with complete gambles during mind-games.

She's far, far, far from balanced. The only balancing element to her is how unforgiving and punitive her power can be when execution is imperfect.

She's fine as-is where her numbers are concerned, but if we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and less of a face-stomp to play against, she needs a rework."

I didn't think I'd have any real disagreements there, but sure enough.

My second comment:

"She's very fun to play when you're good at her.

She's very unfun to play when you're not good at her.

She's very fun to play against when the killer isn't all that good.

She's very unfun to play against when the killer is skilled."

Again, didn't think I was going to get a ton of hatred for this. I think we can all agree there's relatively little you can do against a highly skilled Nurse player.

Then the argument became about PERSONAL ENJOYMENT.

How we, as individuals PERSONALLY feel about playing as her and playing against her:

Third comment, in reply to the protest from the audacious second post:

"I really don't see how.

It's binary.

You lose line of sight, you run contrary to normal pathing.

She blinks - you do your little spin or DH.

She either hits you or she doesn't.

Rinse and repeat for 7 minutes (Probably shorter, because if she's a good nurse, she's not going to miss much)

I don't see how a killer pointing at you and damaging you regardless of sightlines, pallets, mindgames, spins, or perks is considered 'fun'."

Because, while she does not need a nerf or even a rework - i do not find playing as or against her stimulating.

That is my PERSONAL opinion.

I don't think there's any argument that when you get into a 1v1 joust with a Nurse that it's anything more than "Try to bait her into missing her power or lunge"

From there, it is no longer a conversation about the nurse. it devolves into what a 'Mind Game' is.

Lengthy and long winded discussions on what defines a 'Mind-Game' and what's just spinning and hoping for the best. Where the difference between normal gameplay, random chance, guessing, and proper mind games are. Which, in all, has nothing to do with the Nurse.

I never, at any point suggested that she was OP, that she was too strong or too weak - that she absolutely should be reworked - or that a rework is a good idea for where she is now. Moreover that if there's any changes to be made, she'd have to be reworked to bring her out of the unique and delicate balance that she's found herself in.

The point of the original comment was not at all to suggest that she is languishing in need of a rework but that - if there's anything to be done, it would have to be a big one. She is not in a place where her numbers could be tweaked away - and no amount of changing her alpha numbers would make her any better to play as at low skill, or against at high skill. Saving a rework - she MUST be maintained.

However, this was not what we discussed. We discussed the very nature of counter-play, mind-games, and the nature of psychology in relation to the reactionary relationship between players in an asymmetrical game.

In my original, post I even declared that there is counter-play to the nurse. However, I was very firm to suggest that running in little circles or breaking line of sight is not 'counterplay' because it is not specific to the nurse and is generally wise advice. 'Breaking line of sight for nurse is no more counterplay than it is against any other killer.' was the heart of such points.

I'd love to have a discussion about the implications of the Nurse's current balance and how it effects players of different skill levels - and what a potential rework would look like, if one should come to pass, and why it would be important not to rework her.

However, here we stand discussing the definition of interpersonal gameplay mechanics.

Never said that she was OP, never said that she was bad, never said that she was in a bad place for the game.

Did say she was unfun, did say average players would benefit from a rework, did say that breaking line of sight was not 'countering' the Nurse.

The confusion must stem from the opening statement and the conclusion:

"She does NOT need a nerf - what she needs is a rework." Which could have been worded better, I did not mean to imply that she needs one by virtue - but that a rework alone would solve her 'problems' - which were defined in the statement and summarized in the conclusion:

"She's FINE AS-IS where her numbers are concerned, but IF we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and LESS OF A FACE-STOMP to play against, she needs a rework."

In this statement, the requirement for the rework would be 'IF' we want her to be more approachable for average players and less of a steam roller in the hands of high rank players. Which not everyone would agree with, hopefully.

In light of the OP suggesting a nerf. The outline you should be taking away from the conclusion is "I understand where you are coming from. If it is a nerf you seek, instead seek a rework. But seek you need not."

Please, my friend, read what I have said before pointing fingers.

I absolutely could have worded my points better, and I would have been more than fine with clearing up confusion.

I don't like writing poorly and miscommunicating my points. I'm more than fine if you disagree with me - but the important thing is that we are at least on the same page.

I hope that in the future as we connect in the forums, we can try to offer constructive and direct counterpoints that are relevant. How this entire conversation was miscommunicated, derailed, and devolved into something so ugly is unbecoming.

~

To clarify for the record:

Does Nurse need a nerf?

She's fine as-is. If we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and less of challenging to play against at high levels, she needs a rework instead and should never be nerfed in her current state.

I do not enjoy playing as or against her regardless of performance, but this does not mean that she should be buffed, nerfed, reworked, or changed based on my opinions. I simply find her to lack any and all stimulation for what amounts to purely subjective means.

Is that supposed to mean something? 😂