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Nurse needs nerf
Comments
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On the contrary, yesterday when I posted a screenshot of a somewhat recent match of a Nurse with ‘the build’ and the purple range add-on getting a 1k, with me as a solo.. crickets. No replies how it could have possibly happened, the thread basically died. And all I had for chase/evasion was Sprint Burst.
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Well, yea. Above all, range addons on nurse are really fair and balanced. :')
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By all means nerf Nurse if you want to kill any potential chance the game has at high level play. It's only really Blight and Nurse you see every game (Which I completely understand why) and even then it's not a guaranteed win for her she will still struggle. I guess the game would become Blight by Daylight till he later gets complained enough to then lead to a nerf then i dare say that will be a nail in the coffin for what's left of the killer playerbase.
Overwatch 2 beta looking real promising right now, at least Blizzard are taking notes for balance from their Esports players so the game can be balanced for high level (As all games should be).
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It’s amazing how many people continue to use the same inane argument she ignores every defense as if mindgaming wasn’t the most important aspect of chase for and against any killer anyways.
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Nurse is like any other killer except you can't use loops, you can't use pallets, you can't use windows. Nurse is exactly like all the other killers, except she gets to ignore every defense survivors get to use against all the other killers.
So technically, she's unfair not only for survivors but all the other killers that don't get to ignore all the defenses survivors have, except for mind-games.
So it kind of amazes me that people continue to defend the Nurse even though she's like every other killer except she can ignore everything every other killer cannot ignore, accept for mindgames.
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She has some crazy add ons. I play her sometimes and I suck without add ons with her but when I put those distance add ons I destroy survivors so they need nerf. I can't imagine how quickly experienced nurse will end matches with them.
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Yeah, and she can’t use any other killer assistance method either. It’s almost like she eliminates all clutter from both sides and makes it only skill-dependent on who is better at mindgaming.
She can’t chase via pure move speed (without meme-tier add-ons), she can’t utilize Bloodlust, window blockers are basically irrelevant to her, she cannot realistically utilize most mindgames 110-115% killers can (eg double back walking around a loop), and she can’t use a normal lunge either (her lunge post-blink is 5.667m compared to the standard 6m, her regular post-blink is 3.333m compared to the standard 3m, to punish inaccurate blinks and better reward accurate ones).
She doesn’t nullify chase. She makes it different rules, and one that still performs at a fair even level when players of even skill go against each other. If you want to contest this, you should go ahead and cite proof. The aggregate self-report collection-only site of a few thousand games is not proof.
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Yeah, I'm sorry to still be inexperienced after 2.5k hours and more than 18k blink attacks. Imagine how insulting it is for these teams who regularly call me a "god Nurse" (*) but were in fact destroyed by a beginner.
I'm sorry for SupaAlf too, as he still make these "beginner" mistakes from time to time after more than 5k hours, despite being one of the strongest Nurses out there.
Nobody to suggest the Nurse was AFK? Strange, usually there is always someone to find the worst excuse to fit his narrative.
(*) To which I invariably explain : there is no such thing, it's just "survivorship bias" (look it up). I just had a one good match and they were on the receiving hand.
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She can’t chase via pure move speed (without meme-tier add-ons)
She has teleport, which is much faster than any killers walking speeds, of course she doesn't walk. This is like saying the Nurse can't use her bike all-the-while she's driving everywhere in her Lamborghini. Well let me tell you, every other killer is riding a bike while the Nurse is keeping hers in the trunk of her Lamborghini.
she can’t utilize Bloodlust
Again, she teleports. Would you really walk when you can teleport right on top of people.
window blockers are basically irrelevant to her
So the Nurse ignoring windows that every other killer has to deal with, is a downside...
she can’t use a normal lunge either (her lunge post-blink is 5.667m compared to the standard 6m, her regular post-blink is 3.333m compared to the standard 3m, to punish inaccurate blinks and better reward accurate ones).
Every other killers teleport-lunge is much worse than Nurse's teleport lunge. When I was teleport-lunging with Trapper, it just didn't seem to work.
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I'm going to list the downsides to each killer.
- Nurse: Some Mindgames
- Trapper: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
- Wraith: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
- Billy: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
- Michael Myers: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
- Hag: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
- Doctor: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
- Huntress: Mindgames, Windows, Pallets, Loops, Walls
Do you notice a pattern here. 1 killer in the entire DBD roster gets to ignore everything except for mindgames. And by the way, the Nurse can actually ignore a lot of mind games that every other killer doesn't get to ignore. Specifically, the Nurse ignores every mindgame that doesn't break line of sight.
So if a survivor is on the other side of a short wall, all the other killers have to try and force the survivor toward the shortest side of the loop. Nurse just teleports across and completely ignores the short wall.
Nurse is not and will never be balanced while she can teleport through objects.
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It’s almost like chases being heavily tilted in one side’s favor due to RNG is bad design because it makes skill irrelevant when you auto win or auto lose a chase based off the tile setup. Also just cause there is LOS doesn’t mean she can’t be mindgamed. Read what she’s going to do and play against it.
Still waiting for you to back up your claims with an actually meaningful show of proof.
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You are wrong about the downsides of the Nurse. If it's all you know I'm betting you are having and hard time against her. Check some streamer tutorial, there are plenty available.
You are also incomplete for the rest of the killer list.
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LOL, I am incomplete with the rest of the list.
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Wait.., what??! So because she only has one playstyle, that eliminates her from having the highest skill ceiling even though her power takes the longest to master and is the hardest out of all killers?
Your labelling Blight above her skill cap, because he has his own playstyle and if it doesn't work he can just resort to the same playstyle as 90% of the killer roaster?
I'm super confused and at the same time under impression you either don't play Nurse or you haven't mastered her.
I play all killer's and imma let you know right now, no killer in the game comes remotely close to Nurse's skill ceiling besides Billy!
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Coming from someone who declares turning about in place to be the pinnacle of DbD gameplay, I'm going to have to take that as a compliment.
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So, let me get this right.
Running in little circles to avoid a killer hit isn't a gamble, it's 'skillful counterplay'?
Diving left or right just before a hatchet is thrown isn't a gamble, it's 'skillful counterplay?'
What happens when it doesn't pay off? is it 'Actually kinda silly counterplay?'
What exactly are you countering when you do a spin or dive? The killer is going to swing either way, you aren't preventing them from doing anything or tricking them - you're taking a gamble and hoping for the best.
it's no more 'counterplay' than unhooking yourself with 4%. You took a risk and it paid off.
Unhooking yourself with 4% isn't a mind-game, is it?
Spinning around in little circles isn't a mind-game.
If what you describe as counterplay was, in actuality, counterplay, then every single step taken, movement made, or breath exhaled as a survivor is counterplay - and every choice made in a match that results in killer failure is 'mind gaming'.
Both of which are definitively untrue.
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all the nurse mains defending nurse like she hasn't been number 1 for years lol
sorry guys, she needs to drop to A or B tier 😴
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Who cares. No other killer has come out that has a higher skill ceiling than her. The closest is Billy - who was released before her! We’re allowed to have S-tier killers that require skill.
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Blight has higher skill ceiling + no amount of skill ceiling should prevent a character from balance changes
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But she already is balanced. When she is matched against players of even skill, she gets an average of 2 kills. It is not a Nurse balance issue if MMR puts a Nurse with survivors worse than the Nurse. That is what is called matchmaking problems. It is also not a Nurse balance issue if DBD puts them into a map super good for Nurse, much like how it also is not a Nurse balance issue if it’s a super bad map for Nurse. That is what is called map design problems.
If you want to contest this, I’d like to see meaningful evidence to back up your claims.
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I would kindly disagree with that claim. Lower floor and ceiling than Nurse. He gets base movement speed, five to seven rush tokens (hmm.. kinda sounds like old Nurse!), a power that is even faster in its mobility than Nurse without needing to charge it up, which can also destroy pallets if it doesn’t result in a hit... and there’s always all those busted add-ons, just in case!
Sure there are different techs and tiles you have to learn with him, but just keep bouncing around until you hit something. Someone can master Blight much quicker than Nurse.
And as someone else has already replied, Nurse is balanced. Maybe the range add-ons can come with a little downside to either blink charge speed or recharge, but that’s really about it.
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Oh please, you cannot compare Nurse's blinks to Hillbilly back-revving, or Nemesis tentacle strike, or Huntress hatchets, or Demo's shred etc.... for one very simple reason that clearly demonstrates you know nothing about Nurse!!!!
Hillbilly and Bubba can cancel their chain-saws
Nemesis can cancel his tentacle strike
Huntress can cancel her hatchet
Demo can cancel his shred
And all do so without any penalties.
Nurse CANNOT cancel a blink once she starts to charge it (i.e. there's no faking it)
Nurse CANNOT reduce the duration/distance of the blink once it's charged up (which presents problems for her on maps with multiple levels)
Nurse suffers mis-blinks, objects that cannot be passed through, etc, and then suffers a COOLDOWN on top of that where she cannot attack, her vision is obscured (which allows smart survivors to hide), and she has to WAIT for her blinks to charge back up again
So, tell me again how you're comparing these completely separate mechanics as though they're one and the same?
A mind game is not an educated guess. It is forcing a killer or survivor into making a play against their best interest.
No, you're completely wrong here. A mind-game is where you force the opponent to have to choose correctly for success. It's not forcing a player to play against their interest.
As a killer, it's perfectly possible to zone survivors into dead areas of the map... that's not in their interest, and it's not a mind-game either.
As a killer, it's perfectly possible to force survivors to trade hooks... that's not necessarily in their interest, and it's also not a mind-game.
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The Nurse is broken because she ignores every defense that survivors have and use against every other killer in the game
I only have several hundred hours playing Nurse so please do correct me if I'm wrong here.
Are you saying Nurse's cannot get stunned by pallets?
Are you saying Nurse's do not get stopped by walls, etc?
Because I gotta tell you, I've been stunned by pallets several times. And walls also present problems... yes, Nurse can blink through walls, but only if the intended landing spot is free. Otherwise you may end up on the wrong side of the wall, or in the wrong place entirely.
So when you say she ignores them, do you perhaps mean that she doesn't behave like other killers in general with regards to them, or are you saying that there's literally no use to walls and pallets... 'cos I gotta tell you, if that's the case, her kill rate would be way higher than it is right now!
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Uhh... did you read what I said? Because you're acting like I said that Nurse was anything like those killers, and you'd be right to criticize me if I did.
I didn't say that she was at all like any of those.
I was saying that sidestepping a projectile/spinning to avoid a lash or dash is not a 'mind game'. Plain and simple.
You don't 'mind game' a Huntress Hatchet by stepping to the side.
And in that split second before, when it's a joust of predictions - the level of play makes it a total gamble - Like the Sherlock Holmes poison pill. You can hedge your bets, but it's still a bet. That's my point. Not that they were like Nurse or that survivors should play the same against the Nurse, just as an illustrative example of the difference between 'outsmarting' an enemy with a mind game and using chance to dodge a projectile.
Also, uhh... You do know that as a nurse - you can look down to ostensibly cancel your blink, right? If survivors double back, you can fatigue yourself to keep yourself in position or stunt your distance appropriately. It helps when cheeky survivors double back or when you change your mind about things.
You're talking as if Ii haven't played as her before or something - as if we both haven't played the game for thousands of hours.
All in all, no complaints about what you said - I just feel like you got the exact wrong idea of what I was saying. I hope this helped clear that up.
We're going to have to disagree on what constitutes a mind-game, though.
Forcing a player to choose correctly to win is called booting up the game. You are not mind-gaming by running around a window or standing at a pallet while they do a little dance trying to predict where you're going.
The game is all about making tiny choices, you already have to make the right choices or you lose.
Showing your red-stain to trick a survivor into a dedicated vault that you punish at an LT isn't 'Forcing them to make the right choice', you have provided false stimuli to provoke them into dedicating to what they believed to be the right choice. By feeding an opponent misinformation in the joust, you entice them to play into your hand. That is the nature of a mind-game. Crouch behind a generator to make it look like you lost a DS, you have starved the killer of the basic information to "make the right choice" because you have fed them misinformation. If you feed someone a lie to trick them, this is quantifiably against the definition of "Forcing them to make the right choice" because you have removed the very nature of a choice through misinformation. If you hide your red-stain as Ghost Face and moon-walk crouch by a window when a survivor isn't looking, they believe you're on the other side of the wall, looking the wrong way - expecting the wrong things - completely ignorant of the danger you have placed them in as they round the corner.
There is no 'right choice' to be made here, you have removed their ability to make the right choice by making them believe the lie that you were somewhere that they were not. Even if they were to deduce that you were making a play, but had no idea where you were, how are they supposed to know what the 'correct' option is? You are incapable of forcing a survivor to make a 'correct choice' if you are confusing them and corralling them towards a mistake.
Not all 'you messed up' situations are mind games - but all mind-games are designed to cause your opponent to mess up. However, this is done by forcing a commitment through false information, or a lack of usual information. There is no 'mind game' where you are positioned where your opponent thinks you are, but likewise, there is no mind game unless you are attempting to trick your opponent into doing something specific.
If you hide in a locker, you may have avoided the killer by not being where they think you'd be, but it isn't a mind game.
And once you're in direct contact with the Killer, all mind-games are out the window, there's no misinformation to give, positions to subvert, or expectations to play off of. The killer will try to hit you and you will try to force a miss or tank the hit.
Just because your opponent does something silly or disadvantageous does not mean you outwitted them with a mind-game.
Just because your opponent played into your hands does not mean you outwitted them with a mind-game.
Just because you played into the hands of your opponent does not mean they outwitted you with a mind-game.
Just because yo did something silly or disadvantageous does not mean your opponent outwitted you with a min-game.
However, if you or your opponent - in a duel - feed one another false information to illicit a favorable outcome, you are mind-gaming.
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Uhh... did you read what I said?
Yes I did. Your opening statement - in reference to my pointing out that Nurse having to guess where to blink is a mind-game - was "If what you constitute as a mind game IS a mind game - then back-revving with Hillbilly and Tentacle whips in the open are pinnacle of mind games."
Because you're acting like I said that Nurse was anything like those killers, and you'd be right to criticize me if I did.
We were discussing mind-games, and what constitutes mind-games. And I was very clear that for the Nurse to guess where to blink is a mind-game. You somehow then made a leap to assert that Billy's back-revving, etc, the pinnacle of mind-games!
Now, whilst I will agree that back-revving, etc, is a mind-game (will he charge, won't he charge, who knows?), it's hardly the pinnacle of mind-games, and I believe you were trying to be sarcastic in making this point, thusly attempting to negate the actual weight of Nurse's blinks.
The crucial difference here is that with Billy's back-revving, or Huntress's hatchet, etc, the survivor has zero control over whether the killer will perform that action or not. All they can do is plan for an either/or scenario.
However, when Nurse is holding her blink, she is definitely going to blink. She cannot cancel it, and the longer she holds it, the more problematic it can get. There is 100% a mind-game here because you can use your knowledge of Nurse's mechanics - that is assuming you have any - to force her into mistake.
It's a mind-game, and it's a completely fair mind-game because it's one the survivor has good chance of manipulating.
I was saying that sidestepping a projectile/spinning to avoid a lash or dash is not a 'mind game'. Plain and simple.
I know what you're saying. You're failing to realise that by side-stepping any projectile etc, you're losing distance. It is a mind-game on the side of the killer, and not a particularly fair one IMHO because the survivor has little influence. Unlike Nurse's blinks which I believe are much fairer.
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This is all 'agree to disagree' territory.
I have very clearly and deliberately outlined the differences between guessing and mind-games from an objective point of view. You offer your own.
The definition, at this point is purely subjective.
But if anything that involves guesswork, anticipation, or uncertain prediction in this game is considered a 'mind-game', then literally every faculty within Dead By Daylight is.
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She doesn't need a nerf. She's hard to pick up, has a massive skill ceiling, the only reason people whine on the forums is because it's hard to understand how to counter a nurse. It's easier when you've played her before, break LOS, decide to hold w or double back. If you pull off a successful double back you get 40+ seconds of chase automatically. The fact is, she's unsual, but when you learn to counter her she's very risk reward. The main goal is to get distance whenever she's in fatigue. Just pactice and you'll learn how to beat a nurse.
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It's not about agreeing to disagreeing.
There are so many points where you seem to ignore what the situations really are ...
The hatchet in a chase is about mind games. Kind of the same as against a blink except harder as the Huntress can cancel the throw. (And retry immediately up to 6 other times)
Aren't you looking at the killer when you run? Aren't you looking at him to know what he will do and where? (If not, you'll get there.) This is used both sides to influence and, yes, mind game each other's next move.
And this is only one example of the kind of mind games involving an hatchet throw.
Plays who try brute force and simple random reactions will get downed fast by a killer who mind games his hits (or blinks). (Huntress is my second favourite killer.)
It seems difference of experience and skill do matter.
edit: autocorrect correction
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Literally everything is "agree to disagree" territory when you're discussing with someone who refuses to accept simple facts.
Is the sun a big ball of burning gas? I dunno, it could be made of cheese. Let's agree to disagree?
Fact is, you're saying that the Nurse having to guess which way a survivor is going to go, and having to make predictions, etc, is not a mind-game... when it literally involves having to make guesses based on cues the survivor is giving and completely in control of! Seems to me the very definition of a mind-game.
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issue of skill
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You have both proved the point in spades with these statements:
if anything that involves guesswork, anticipation, or uncertain prediction in this game is considered a 'mind-game', then literally every faculty within Dead By Daylight is.
My friends, you're saying that the minute decision to walk in any particular direction at any time for any reason is a 'mind game' if it is at all influenced by knowledge of the opponent's actions; which, at its core, is every fiber in the tapestry of this game's design. If your definition of mind game is any action made based on your opponent's action, this is the truth.
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No. That's not it. Your paragraph seems to be missing how the influence works. It's not about prediction or knowledge. It's about influencing each-other. Poker? A bluff? Does that helps?
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Correlating mind-games to poker is more than fine.
I just don't see how literally every single movement or decision made in the game is so lofty as to be considered on-par with Poker.
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You might want to look up what a straw man is
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She has a very high skill floor. People who manage to get good with her deserve their victories.
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She has teleport, which is much faster than any killers walking speeds, of course she doesn't walk.
It's only faster in a straight line. When you need to go around objects, etc, it's much slower. To be good at Nurse, you have to try to get it right more often than not, because getting it wrong is very punishing.
Again, she teleports.
Only in straight lines, and with a cooldown, etc. It's not a straight comparison as you're making out.
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Lmao. Except that I've unlocked all the characters, I've also unlocked at least half of all the perks (I don't spend bp on survs because I don't play a lot of surv), and not to mention that I've been playing since the fourth anniversary, I don't have any experience in the game
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Twins, isn't it? It's not very used because it's not strong. I can't believe you're smart (!) enough to ask this question. Look at the Rift. Outfit for Twins, why? Because no one is playing with it.
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My rank gold 3, in the 2 matches I played today, the Nurse came 2 times and they both did 4k lmao
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Get good
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Not impossible with Nurse lol. She is powerful even without an add-on, and she becomes even more powerful with an add-ons. Pallets in the game, but you can't drop them, because even if you drop them, you can't stun her. The Nurse against of you must be a rookie, so that you can stun her
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If we ignore that it passes through almost all the walls, pallets and ceilings/floors in the game, she is the most powerless killer
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Given your statements about her, I'm not sure you are in a position to call anybody a rookie.
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I think it would be fairer for the killers to play without camping and tunneling, and for the survs to play without teabag every time they drop a pallet
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The problem is that the other killers are very weak, but the Nurse is stronger than these killers. Other killers can win when they play well against a avarage SWF team, but nurse wins even if she plays avarage. Do you understand me? More precisely, "DO YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND"?
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Oh c'mon, man, is this where we're getting at?
My original statement abridged:
- Nurse is balanced very delicately (any small change would be drastic as she is now)
- She is very punishing to play for the vast majority of players due to their skill level
- The difference between skilled and unskilled nurse players is the most jarring in the game
- Her kit completely circumvents conventional gameplay
- She completely ignores many perks due to her exemption from contemporary play
- She can be very discouraging to play before reaching a certain skill level
- Playing as or against Nurse includes mind games but also has a lot of bling gambles and guessing games
- Her primary balancing element is that her power demands perfect skill
- She is fine where she is - she'd need a rework if we wanted to make her less risk/reward oriented
I don't see where the straw-man is here, aside from the fact we just had this incredibly long and opinionated debate on if there is ever any 'guessing game' or random chance incorporated while playing against her, or if it's 100% psychological jousting at all levels.
This entire time the philosophical spearhead of our discussion was 'Aren't all guessing games and 'blind gambles' just mind-games as well' meaning it has all shifted from the original intent of the threat into a subjective argument as to the definition of what a "Mind Game" is.
Which more or less has devolved into such a guttural discussion of even if minute considerations can be considered 'trickery' by the simple reactionary nature of the game. Even in light of the fact that I never said that ALL plays against the nurse were gambles and that none were skillful.
Which is a very bitter takeaway from the body of such a statement.
We can argue all day and night as to what a "Mind Game" is with points on both sides. But regardless - the statement of the Nurse still stands.
She's fine as is. She needs no changes.
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The most logical thing is that Bhvr should remove all other maps, make a flat map, and there should be no pallet, no window, and no wall so that all the killers have a S tier. Cuz when the Nurse against to you, it's like you're playing on a flat land. Except for the rookie Nurses.
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Are you sure about that, rookie?
I have many more ss like this, rookie ;)
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Please actually read what I write before making such statements.
My first comment - the one that started it all:
"She does NOT need a nerf - what she needs is a rework.
Right now, she teeters on a hyper fine edge.
For 80% of players, Nurse is incredibly punishing and super hard to get used to. Her power is thorny and unwieldy in the hands of newer players and a new survivor player vs a new nurse will win just about every time.
The disproportionate performance between the 'average' nurse player and the 'good' nurse player is staggering.
When an average player gets behind her, she can be easily punished by survivors and her power can seem unreliable at times.
But a good player can wipe the floor with survivors without breaking a sweat.
Her kit completely circumvents many parts of normal gameplay, which not only makes her incredibly strong in her 1v1, but also chokes many of the potential perks at her disposal.
There has never been an actual nurse player that ever thought 'Oh no! A pallet/window! My greatest weakness!'
There has never been a nurse that has brought Spirit Fury or Bamboozle.
There's no need.
She feels rotten to play as until you finally 'git gud', then it's hard NOT to cut players down.
Is there counterplay? Yes. But a lot of it involves stealth and breaking line of sight with complete gambles during mind-games.
She's far, far, far from balanced. The only balancing element to her is how unforgiving and punitive her power can be when execution is imperfect.
She's fine as-is where her numbers are concerned, but if we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and less of a face-stomp to play against, she needs a rework."
I didn't think I'd have any real disagreements there, but sure enough.
My second comment:
"She's very fun to play when you're good at her.
She's very unfun to play when you're not good at her.
She's very fun to play against when the killer isn't all that good.
She's very unfun to play against when the killer is skilled."
Again, didn't think I was going to get a ton of hatred for this. I think we can all agree there's relatively little you can do against a highly skilled Nurse player.
Then the argument became about PERSONAL ENJOYMENT.
How we, as individuals PERSONALLY feel about playing as her and playing against her:
Third comment, in reply to the protest from the audacious second post:
"I really don't see how.
It's binary.
You lose line of sight, you run contrary to normal pathing.
She blinks - you do your little spin or DH.
She either hits you or she doesn't.
Rinse and repeat for 7 minutes (Probably shorter, because if she's a good nurse, she's not going to miss much)
I don't see how a killer pointing at you and damaging you regardless of sightlines, pallets, mindgames, spins, or perks is considered 'fun'."
Because, while she does not need a nerf or even a rework - i do not find playing as or against her stimulating.
That is my PERSONAL opinion.
I don't think there's any argument that when you get into a 1v1 joust with a Nurse that it's anything more than "Try to bait her into missing her power or lunge"
From there, it is no longer a conversation about the nurse. it devolves into what a 'Mind Game' is.
Lengthy and long winded discussions on what defines a 'Mind-Game' and what's just spinning and hoping for the best. Where the difference between normal gameplay, random chance, guessing, and proper mind games are. Which, in all, has nothing to do with the Nurse.
I never, at any point suggested that she was OP, that she was too strong or too weak - that she absolutely should be reworked - or that a rework is a good idea for where she is now. Moreover that if there's any changes to be made, she'd have to be reworked to bring her out of the unique and delicate balance that she's found herself in.
The point of the original comment was not at all to suggest that she is languishing in need of a rework but that - if there's anything to be done, it would have to be a big one. She is not in a place where her numbers could be tweaked away - and no amount of changing her alpha numbers would make her any better to play as at low skill, or against at high skill. Saving a rework - she MUST be maintained.
However, this was not what we discussed. We discussed the very nature of counter-play, mind-games, and the nature of psychology in relation to the reactionary relationship between players in an asymmetrical game.
In my original, post I even declared that there is counter-play to the nurse. However, I was very firm to suggest that running in little circles or breaking line of sight is not 'counterplay' because it is not specific to the nurse and is generally wise advice. 'Breaking line of sight for nurse is no more counterplay than it is against any other killer.' was the heart of such points.
I'd love to have a discussion about the implications of the Nurse's current balance and how it effects players of different skill levels - and what a potential rework would look like, if one should come to pass, and why it would be important not to rework her.
However, here we stand discussing the definition of interpersonal gameplay mechanics.
Never said that she was OP, never said that she was bad, never said that she was in a bad place for the game.
Did say she was unfun, did say average players would benefit from a rework, did say that breaking line of sight was not 'countering' the Nurse.
The confusion must stem from the opening statement and the conclusion:
"She does NOT need a nerf - what she needs is a rework." Which could have been worded better, I did not mean to imply that she needs one by virtue - but that a rework alone would solve her 'problems' - which were defined in the statement and summarized in the conclusion:
"She's FINE AS-IS where her numbers are concerned, but IF we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and LESS OF A FACE-STOMP to play against, she needs a rework."
In this statement, the requirement for the rework would be 'IF' we want her to be more approachable for average players and less of a steam roller in the hands of high rank players. Which not everyone would agree with, hopefully.
In light of the OP suggesting a nerf. The outline you should be taking away from the conclusion is "I understand where you are coming from. If it is a nerf you seek, instead seek a rework. But seek you need not."
Please, my friend, read what I have said before pointing fingers.
I absolutely could have worded my points better, and I would have been more than fine with clearing up confusion.
I don't like writing poorly and miscommunicating my points. I'm more than fine if you disagree with me - but the important thing is that we are at least on the same page.
I hope that in the future as we connect in the forums, we can try to offer constructive and direct counterpoints that are relevant. How this entire conversation was miscommunicated, derailed, and devolved into something so ugly is unbecoming.
~
To clarify for the record:
Does Nurse need a nerf?
She's fine as-is. If we want her to be more enjoyable to learn and less of challenging to play against at high levels, she needs a rework instead and should never be nerfed in her current state.
I do not enjoy playing as or against her regardless of performance, but this does not mean that she should be buffed, nerfed, reworked, or changed based on my opinions. I simply find her to lack any and all stimulation for what amounts to purely subjective means.
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To be honest, a lot of times I accidently hit the crouch button when throwing a pallet. I did change my keyboard setup to run E,S,D,F and my crouch is on A.
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Is that supposed to mean something? 😂
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