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Wake Up Call: Why This Game Should Not Be Balanced Around Voice Comms
https://youtu.be/YH5jhyU6GjUThe lack of information was a SELLING point for this game to me. That I was on my own, with my own wits to beat the Killer, with only the possibility of my fellows helping me, and an even greater chance they would be my downfall. This was RIVETING and is one of the best experiences gaming as to offer. It is the entire reason I fell in love with this game.
I was against the inclusion of SWF from the very inception of it, I knew what it would cause before it even happened. I can link you to some of my old Steam Posts, and exactly what I predicted would come true. This game steared away from the reasons I bought it, the devs caved their artistic integrity for profit. But I held onto the game and still play it to this day.
If you balance this game around voice comms, you will rip away everything this game set out to originally be, it will no longer be the Dead by Daylight I spent my money on. It will be a clone of Death Garden and F13, games that miserably failed. It will be indistinguishable from Last Year because of how Last Year's systems are intended.
The solution to this is the thing SWF groups dislike the most, and that is making 2 separate game modes. I once made a post on Steam about this that garnered over 4k comments, the largest DbD thread in existence. But my opinions of then have since changed. Instead of simple Ranked and Casual, I have a way of making SWF involve Ranked as well:
In Ranked SWF, two 5 man teams face off, one player is a designated Killer while the others are Survivors. Each team of Survivors facing the opposing Killer, and the team the overall has higher Emblem Quality will be the winner. This will make the gameplay drastically different of the standard Solo queue, which will remain in traditional DbD fashion. You will not be required to go in will a full 5 stack, matchmaking will fill empty slots, even solo survivors could play this mode. Killers who dont mind facing SWF groups can be designated Killers for teams that lack one, and would be able to enjoy small buffs to the Killer that compensate for the comms the Survivors will have.
The reason I ask for this is simple player choice, do not rip away what I love about DbD simply for profit, this is a request from a die hard fan and a consumer of BHVR products. Sometimes the bottom line isn't what's always most important. The game's population has grown to be able to handle this kind of split now, and this would bolster it further by attracting old players back to the game.
TL;DR: Including voice comms to this game would require more than simple buffs to the Killer, it would require the entire game to be restructured from the ground up into a similar game like Death Garden, which failed. An idea that would make Ranked modes for Solos and SWF groups was proposed by me, I suggest looking for that in the OP. I believe this is the best way to handle the comms issue in the least amount of effort needed to do so.
Comments
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I'll be the first to say that I agree!weirdkid5 said:I'll continue to bring up this video every time it becomes relevant. Now that more issues are getting fixed for Killers, the attention is now coming back to the genrush and the capabilities of SWF groups. I would just like to quickly remind everyone what the original intent of this game was, and why I and many other solo Survivors bought this game. Because we have the choice to play Solo.https://youtu.be/YH5jhyU6GjU
The lack of information was a SELLING point for this game to me. That I was on my own, with my own wits to beat the Killer, with only the possibility of my fellows helping me, and an even greater chance they would be my downfall. This was RIVETING and is one of the best experiences gaming as to offer. It is the entire reason I fell in love with this game.
I was against the inclusion of SWF from the very inception of it, I knew what it would cause before it even happened. I can link you to some of my old Steam Posts, and exactly what I predicted would come true. This game steared away from the reasons I bought it, the devs caved their artistic integrity for profit. But I held onto the game and still play it to this day.
If you balance this game around voice comms, you will rip away everything this game set out to originally be, it will no longer be the Dead by Daylight I spent my money on. It will be a clone of Death Garden and F13, games that miserably failed. It will be indistinguishable from Last Year because of how Last Year's systems are intended.
The solution to this is the thing SWF groups dislike the most, and that is making 2 separate game modes. I once made a post on Steam about this that garnered over 4k comments, the largest DbD thread in existence. But my opinions of then have since changed. Instead of simple Ranked and Casual, I have a way of making SWF involve Ranked as well:
In Ranked SWF, two 5 man teams face off, one player is a designated Killer while the others are Survivors. Each team of Survivors facing the opposing Killer, and the team the overall has higher Emblem Quality will be the winner. This will make the gameplay drastically different of the standard Solo queue, which will remain in traditional DbD fashion. You will not be required to go in will a full 5 stack, matchmaking will fill empty slots, even solo survivors could play this mode. Killers who dont mind facing SWF groups can be designated Killers for teams that lack one, and would be able to enjoy small buffs to the Killer that compensate for the comms the Survivors will have.
The reason I ask for this is simple player choice, do not rip away what I love about DbD simply for profit, this is a request from a die hard fan and a consumer of BHVR products. Sometimes the bottom line isn't what's always most important. The game's population has grown to be able to handle this kind of split now, and this would bolster it further by attracting old players back to the game.
TL;DR: Including voice comms to this game would require more than simple buffs to the Killer, it would require the entire game to be restructured from the ground up into a similar game like Death Garden, which failed. An idea that would make Ranked modes for Solos and SWF groups was proposed by me, I suggest looking for that in the OP. I believe this is the best way to handle the comms issue in the least amount of effort needed to do so.
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I would much rather them get rid of the damn thing entirely, game wasn't supposed to be centered around groups of people playing together. You got all these streamers playing with their friends, and the minute you say something bad about SWF they get all mad and topsy turvy simply because they think you're berating them for playing with their friends.
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Swf was always intended for the game. It just wasnt included at launch.
Edit - i misread. The swf suggestion seems great but there are too many tiny problems. Dc'ers and match length like one group finishing in 5 and the other match taking 20.2 -
@PandaChris said:
Swf was always intended for the game. It just wasnt included at launch.Edit - i misread. The swf suggestion seems great but there are too many tiny problems. Dc'ers and match length like one group finishing in 5 and the other match taking 20.
Please tell me where SWF with Voice comms was always intended for the game.
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I agree, I think adding voice coms would not work out very well. Not just from a technical standpoint, but also from a community standpoint. Giving people the ability to share their thoughts I feel like would spread more toxicity. Plus, any game that requires mics I usually get harassed in and it really dampens the experience.
I think the only problem with what you suggested is that I feel no killer would purposefully go against a SWF group if it can be prevented. Especially if it holds no benefit over going against solo survivors.
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@Detective_Jonathan said:
@PandaChris said:
Swf was always intended for the game. It just wasnt included at launch.Edit - i misread. The swf suggestion seems great but there are too many tiny problems. Dc'ers and match length like one group finishing in 5 and the other match taking 20.
Please tell me where SWF with Voice comms was always intended for the game.
Devstream where they discussed it last year I believe and they said that they had the choice of KYF or SWF making the launch and they chose KYF because they thought it'd be more popular on launch. They only had time before launch to include one while the other was at least a month off in development launch time.
The swf patch arrived about a month later and to all the conspiracy theorists they couldn't have made it in less than a months time, got it tested and working.
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Of course SWF was intendend. You cannot make a Multiplayer Online Game without the possibility to play with multiple people.
If people really think that it was not intended, they are simply wrong. As wrong as you can be.
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@powerbats said:
The swf patch arrived about a month later and to all the conspiracy theorists they couldn't have made it in less than a months time, got it tested and working.Quoted for truth.
For the derps that know nothing about game development, a massive feature like SWF does not come about in a month. It takes significant development time to implement such a feature. Therefore it stands to reason that SWF was planned LONG before the game came out.
The devs should not add voice comms to the game I agree. What they need to do is bite the bullet and nerf SWF in some fashion. You can team up with your friends, but you are limited in some capacity when you do. If you have a problem with this, play solo. As a survivor main that plays SWF and solo I have absolutely no problem limiting SWF. It's literally a cake walk compared to playing solo.
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You're a smart donny.
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I feel like this is a flaw in the basic game design. The game was built around the survivors having little communication with each other, and yet because it's a group game, people would want to play with their group. I couldn't think of other multiplayer games which is built around no communication between teammates.1
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In the developer streams before the game launched. Playing with your friends was highly requested and they said they were going to have it. Just wasnt ready at launch.Detective_Jonathan saidPlease tell me where SWF with Voice comms was always intended for the game.
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So you wanna remove SWF or keep an unbalanced game?
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For the people saying SWF was intended, that directly contradicts the video I posted and the store description of Steam itself. This is not a team based game, so whether SWF was inevitable for the game or not, it was shoehorned into the game quickly without first considering the balance ramifications.
Maybe it was always intended, maybe not. But this does not change that when it was implented, nothing was rebalanced and the game has been festering for it for 3 years.
The reason it was shoehorned is because Survivors kept lobby dodging to play with friends in a game that was balanced around SOLO players. So they basically caved and gave cheaters exactly what they wanted.
@Beverly the fact you said no Killer would purposefully face SWF is one of my main points. The fact you recognize this means SWF is busted and is exactly why it needs fixing. This "reason" is simply enabling the balance abusers to keep doing so, under guise they are just pLaYinG wItH fRiEndS3 -
Try reading the OP man. I want the game to be split into two modes, as this is something the devs also want to do.Master said:So you wanna remove SWF or keep an unbalanced game?
Making a team based SWF game consisting of 5 man teams, with a designated Killer for each team, is one of the best ways to go about this. Keep solo Survivor a separate queue. The balance issues of the game itself don't particularly always involve SWF, such as genrush. That is something 4 competent solos will pull off everytime.
The two issues, SWF and balance, need to be treated separately.0 -
I always thought your idea to separate swf and solo into their own gamemodes was a decent idea, but not the best.weirdkid5 said:I'll continue to bring up this video every time it becomes relevant. Now that more issues are getting fixed for Killers, the attention is now coming back to the genrush and the capabilities of SWF groups. I would just like to quickly remind everyone what the original intent of this game was, and why I and many other solo Survivors bought this game. Because we have the choice to play Solo.https://youtu.be/YH5jhyU6GjU
The lack of information was a SELLING point for this game to me. That I was on my own, with my own wits to beat the Killer, with only the possibility of my fellows helping me, and an even greater chance they would be my downfall. This was RIVETING and is one of the best experiences gaming as to offer. It is the entire reason I fell in love with this game.
I was against the inclusion of SWF from the very inception of it, I knew what it would cause before it even happened. I can link you to some of my old Steam Posts, and exactly what I predicted would come true. This game steared away from the reasons I bought it, the devs caved their artistic integrity for profit. But I held onto the game and still play it to this day.
If you balance this game around voice comms, you will rip away everything this game set out to originally be, it will no longer be the Dead by Daylight I spent my money on. It will be a clone of Death Garden and F13, games that miserably failed. It will be indistinguishable from Last Year because of how Last Year's systems are intended.
The solution to this is the thing SWF groups dislike the most, and that is making 2 separate game modes. I once made a post on Steam about this that garnered over 4k comments, the largest DbD thread in existence. But my opinions of then have since changed. Instead of simple Ranked and Casual, I have a way of making SWF involve Ranked as well:
In Ranked SWF, two 5 man teams face off, one player is a designated Killer while the others are Survivors. Each team of Survivors facing the opposing Killer, and the team the overall has higher Emblem Quality will be the winner. This will make the gameplay drastically different of the standard Solo queue, which will remain in traditional DbD fashion. You will not be required to go in will a full 5 stack, matchmaking will fill empty slots, even solo survivors could play this mode. Killers who dont mind facing SWF groups can be designated Killers for teams that lack one, and would be able to enjoy small buffs to the Killer that compensate for the comms the Survivors will have.
The reason I ask for this is simple player choice, do not rip away what I love about DbD simply for profit, this is a request from a die hard fan and a consumer of BHVR products. Sometimes the bottom line isn't what's always most important. The game's population has grown to be able to handle this kind of split now, and this would bolster it further by attracting old players back to the game.
TL;DR: Including voice comms to this game would require more than simple buffs to the Killer, it would require the entire game to be restructured from the ground up into a similar game like Death Garden, which failed. An idea that would make Ranked modes for Solos and SWF groups was proposed by me, I suggest looking for that in the OP. I believe this is the best way to handle the comms issue in the least amount of effort needed to do so.
I feel like once the community gets split into multiple game modes it'll take EVEN longer to find games... And that's without the Dev's adding a hardcore mode (which is no addons, perks, offerings, items) just bare bones vanilla DBD0 -
It's by no means the best solution, but I think it's the most reasonable at the moment. If anything, do a PTB for the Ranked SWF mode and if it goes well push it into a live build.ItsYourBoyGuzma said:I always thought your idea to separate swf and solo into their own gamemodes was a decent idea, but not the best.
I feel like once the community gets split into multiple game modes it'll take EVEN longer to find games... And that's without the Dev's adding a hardcore mode (which is no addons, perks, offerings, items) just bare bones vanilla DBD
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I never said for it to go away. Try to not put words in my mouth, dont pull that ######### here mate.Thaznar said:SWF is not going anywhere - accept it. It was always intended for the game as the devs confirmed it recently, but was not ready upon launch. My only problem when I play some killers is that killers are not given enough time to deal with how fast gens are being done. Good team will always put pressure on gens SWF or not.
Also the vid I posted, released in 2016, contradicts the recent PR statement it was "always supposed to be there."0 -
@weirdkid5 said:
I'll continue to bring up this video every time it becomes relevant. Now that more issues are getting fixed for Killers, the attention is now coming back to the genrush and the capabilities of SWF groups. I would just like to quickly remind everyone what the original intent of this game was, and why I and many other solo Survivors bought this game. Because we have the choice to play Solo.The lack of information was a SELLING point for this game to me. That I was on my own, with my own wits to beat the Killer, with only the possibility of my fellows helping me, and an even greater chance they would be my downfall. This was RIVETING and is one of the best experiences gaming as to offer. It is the entire reason I fell in love with this game.
I was against the inclusion of SWF from the very inception of it, I knew what it would cause before it even happened. I can link you to some of my old Steam Posts, and exactly what I predicted would come true. This game steared away from the reasons I bought it, the devs caved their artistic integrity for profit. But I held onto the game and still play it to this day.
If you balance this game around voice comms, you will rip away everything this game set out to originally be, it will no longer be the Dead by Daylight I spent my money on. It will be a clone of Death Garden and F13, games that miserably failed. It will be indistinguishable from Last Year because of how Last Year's systems are intended.
The solution to this is the thing SWF groups dislike the most, and that is making 2 separate game modes. I once made a post on Steam about this that garnered over 4k comments, the largest DbD thread in existence. But my opinions of then have since changed. Instead of simple Ranked and Casual, I have a way of making SWF involve Ranked as well:
In Ranked SWF, two 5 man teams face off, one player is a designated Killer while the others are Survivors. Each team of Survivors facing the opposing Killer, and the team the overall has higher Emblem Quality will be the winner. This will make the gameplay drastically different of the standard Solo queue, which will remain in traditional DbD fashion. You will not be required to go in will a full 5 stack, matchmaking will fill empty slots, even solo survivors could play this mode. Killers who dont mind facing SWF groups can be designated Killers for teams that lack one, and would be able to enjoy small buffs to the Killer that compensate for the comms the Survivors will have.
The reason I ask for this is simple player choice, do not rip away what I love about DbD simply for profit, this is a request from a die hard fan and a consumer of BHVR products. Sometimes the bottom line isn't what's always most important. The game's population has grown to be able to handle this kind of split now, and this would bolster it further by attracting old players back to the game.
TL;DR: Including voice comms to this game would require more than simple buffs to the Killer, it would require the entire game to be restructured from the ground up into a similar game like Death Garden, which failed. An idea that would make Ranked modes for Solos and SWF groups was proposed by me, I suggest looking for that in the OP. I believe this is the best way to handle the comms issue in the least amount of effort needed to do so.
u cant fight the SWF fenomenon with 3rd party software voice communications
DBD should follow the newest trends and implement distance-based voice chat and VR
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Edit: Apparently a double post.
Post edited by knell on0 -
weirdkid5 said:
The lack of information was a SELLING point for this game to me. That I was on my own, with my own wits to beat the Killer, with only the possibility of my fellows helping me, and an even greater chance they would be my downfall. This was RIVETING and is one of the best experiences gaming as to offer. It is the entire reason I fell in love with this game.
Same here. Which is why the performance of other solo survivors has never bugged me much, even if it meant a 4K for the killer. In many horror movies, aspect of fear usually is not just centered around the monster alone. It often revolves around the victims all having different temperaments and different motives. Some are cowards that would betray you at the most critical moment. Some are well-intentioned, but are clumsy and will drag you down at the most inopportune time. Some likes to play the hero without knowing what he/she is up against. Some are just unlucky and have missed connections and interpretations of the events. These imperfect personalities are all part of the horror genre. I mean, what real horror fan would want to watch a bunch of perfect people overcome a monster with ease without any sacrifices, right? It's horror because it feels like a miracle to have survived in the first place. And that is what this game is based on.
I've quoted these before, but I'll do it again since it's important.
The game is supposed to be "an asymmetrical multiplayer game where you can live in the world of these 70s and 80s horror movies. It’s anti-social multiplayer where survivors have to collaborate and cooperate up to a certain point. The old saying is that you don’t need to be fast than the killer, you just need to be faster than your friends." (McCote on 11/12/18) and "a game where we tried to have this horror atmosphere, this sense of isolation, there's no spoken dialogue in the game, it's very lonely and quiet, except for the pounding of drums when you are about to die. And that's all intentional. It really builds up the feeling of the game." (McLean on 10/26/18)
The only reason why they had the intention of adding SWF Mode from the beginning was because "2018 now. We are not going to tell people you can't talk to your friends while you play a videogame." (McLean on 10/26/18). It never had anything to do with the core idea behind the game, nor was it integral to its mechanics. It was actually the opposite (breaking the balance of the game), but they added it in because "all multiplayer games do it." It is like if the makers of Scrabble or Words With Friends legitimized anagram decoders because they can't tell people not to google or download a third party anagram decoding app. Sure, there is no way to stop it, but it also breaks the whole idea behind Scrabble, where you are expected to use the information that is already in your head, not some outside source.
And note that McLean had said "The Kill Your Friends Mode and Survive with Friends MODE were always intended." (McLean on 10/26/18) Notice that a swf MODE was never added. Instead, they forcefully jammed SWF into the core experience and ruined the balance of the gameplay. That is what bothers me the most. If people wants to play as overpowered 'Super Power Rangers with Telepathic Abilities' vs overpowered 'Super Mecha Godzilla on Steroids', that's fine. Just play it in another mode, and keep the core experience and the core feeling of the gameplay separate in the original mode.
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Spot on analysisknell said:weirdkid5 said:
The lack of information was a SELLING point for this game to me. That I was on my own, with my own wits to beat the Killer, with only the possibility of my fellows helping me, and an even greater chance they would be my downfall. This was RIVETING and is one of the best experiences gaming as to offer. It is the entire reason I fell in love with this game.
Same here. Which is why the performance of other solo survivors has never bugged me much, even if it meant a 4K for the killer. In many horror movies, aspect of fear usually is not just centered around the monster alone. It often revolves around the victims all having different temperaments and different motives. Some are cowards that would betray you at the most critical moment. Some are well-intentioned, but are clumsy and will drag you down at the most inopportune time. Some likes to play the hero without knowing what he/she is up against. Some are just unlucky and have missed connections and interpretations of the events. These imperfect personalities are all part of the horror genre. I mean, what real horror fan would want to watch a bunch of perfect people overcome a monster with ease without any sacrifices, right? It's horror because it feels like a miracle to have survived in the first place. And that is what this game is based on.
I've quoted these before, but I'll do it again since it's important.
The game is supposed to be "an asymmetrical multiplayer game where you can live in the world of these 70s and 80s horror movies. It’s anti-social multiplayer where survivors have to collaborate and cooperate up to a certain point. The old saying is that you don’t need to be fast than the killer, you just need to be faster than your friends." (McCote on 11/12/18) and "a game where we tried to have this horror atmosphere, this sense of isolation, there's no spoken dialogue in the game, it's very lonely and quiet, except for the pounding of drums when you are about to die. And that's all intentional. It really builds up the feeling of the game." (McLean on 10/26/18)
The only reason why they had the intention of adding SWF Mode from the beginning was because "2018 now. We are not going to tell people you can't talk to your friends while you play a videogame." (McLean on 10/26/18). It never had anything to do with the core idea behind the game, nor was it integral to its mechanics. It was actually the opposite (breaking the balance of the game), but they added it in because "all multiplayer games do it." It is like if the makers of Scrabble or Words With Friends legitimized anagram decoders because they can't tell people not to google or download a third party anagram decoding app. Sure, there is no way to stop it, but it also breaks the whole idea behind Scrabble, where you are expected to use the information that is already in your head, not some outside source.
And note that McLean had said "The Kill Your Friends Mode and Survive with Friends MODE were always intended." (McLean on 10/26/18) Notice that a swf MODE was never added. Instead, they forcefully jammed SWF into the core experience and ruined the balance of the gameplay. That is what bothers me the most. If people wants to play as overpowered 'Super Power Rangers with Telepathic Abilities' vs overpowered 'Super Mecha Godzilla on Steroids', that's fine. Just play it in another mode, and keep the core experience and the core feeling of the gameplay separate in the original mode.
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Whatever they do against SWF they need do it fast. Personally I think they should just add voice chat in game. Most survivors already use it and it's not going anywhere. Their original artistic intentions for the game were destroyed when they added SWF in the first place. They need to admit that and finally balance their game.
It's been 2 years of killers dealing with a broken feature. 2 years of Billys and Nurses only. 2 years of gen rush. 2 years of mandatory ruin. Enough is enough.
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Voice chat will not resolve anything as I stated in the OP. It would require an entire reworking of the games fundamental cores, which would essentially reworking everything from the ground up. It's not as simple as adding voice and giving the Killer some measley buffsOkapi said:Whatever they do against SWF they need do it fast. Personally I think they should just add voice chat in game. Most survivors already use it and it's not going anywhere. Their original artistic intentions for the game were destroyed when they added SWF in the first place. They need to admit that and finally balance their game.
It's been 2 years of killers dealing with a broken feature. 2 years of Billys and Nurses only. 2 years of gen rush. 2 years of mandatory ruin. Enough is enough.
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Make it happen Cap'nweirdkid5 said:
It's by no means the best solution, but I think it's the most reasonable at the moment. If anything, do a PTB for the Ranked SWF mode and if it goes well push it into a live build.ItsYourBoyGuzma said:I always thought your idea to separate swf and solo into their own gamemodes was a decent idea, but not the best.
I feel like once the community gets split into multiple game modes it'll take EVEN longer to find games... And that's without the Dev's adding a hardcore mode (which is no addons, perks, offerings, items) just bare bones vanilla DBD0 -
@weirdkid5 said:
Okapi said:Whatever they do against SWF they need do it fast. Personally I think they should just add voice chat in game. Most survivors already use it and it's not going anywhere. Their original artistic intentions for the game were destroyed when they added SWF in the first place. They need to admit that and finally balance their game.
It's been 2 years of killers dealing with a broken feature. 2 years of Billys and Nurses only. 2 years of gen rush. 2 years of mandatory ruin. Enough is enough.
Voice chat will not resolve anything as I stated in the OP. It would require an entire reworking of the games fundamental cores, which would essentially reworking everything from the ground up. It's not as simple as adding voice and giving the Killer some measley buffs
The thing what else can they do? It's been 1 year since they promised to buff solos up to the level of SWF and then balance around killers around that.
Nothing has been done to buff solos since then. The most they did to close the gap was block the killer's load-out when someone dies. Hell they still haven't fixed SWF matchmaking and to this day high rank players use SWF to bully baby killers.
They clearly have no intention of separating SWF into their own mode or lobbies. Which would be the correct decision as the game does not have a large enough player base to support 2 modes.
I'm losing faith in the devs to balance both solos and SWF at the same time. If they can't do it why not bite the bullet and kill of solos by adding in-game voice chat?
The people have spoken and they prefer playing survivor with voice chat. Hence the game wining the "Better with Friends" Steam award. Give them what they want and fix killer at the same time.
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Honestly I don’t care if the game remains as imbalanced as it is now. As long as DS and NOED are removed0
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I lost faith in the Dev's after Ds was created and freddy fiascoOkapi said:@weirdkid5 said:
Okapi said:Whatever they do against SWF they need do it fast. Personally I think they should just add voice chat in game. Most survivors already use it and it's not going anywhere. Their original artistic intentions for the game were destroyed when they added SWF in the first place. They need to admit that and finally balance their game.
It's been 2 years of killers dealing with a broken feature. 2 years of Billys and Nurses only. 2 years of gen rush. 2 years of mandatory ruin. Enough is enough.
Voice chat will not resolve anything as I stated in the OP. It would require an entire reworking of the games fundamental cores, which would essentially reworking everything from the ground up. It's not as simple as adding voice and giving the Killer some measley buffs
The thing what else can they do? It's been 1 year since they promised to buff solos up to the level of SWF and then balance around killers around that.
Nothing has been done to buff solos since then. The most they did to close the gap was block the killer's load-out when someone dies. Hell they still haven't fixed SWF matchmaking and to this day high rank players use SWF to bully baby killers.
I'm losing faith in the devs to balance both solos and SWF at the same time. If they can't do it why not bite the bullet and kill of solos by adding in-game voice chat?
The people have spoken and they prefer playing survivor with voice chat. Hence the game wining the "Better with Friends" Steam award. Give them what they want and fix killer at the same time.
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I know I have been waiting for DS to be removed since the Halloween DLC came out. And NOED since it’s recent buff to one shot at any level.Okapi said:@Zagrid said:
Honestly I don’t care if the game remains as imbalanced as it is now. As long as DS and NOED are removedWell it's been what, 1 year since they said they would nerf DS? So you better get used to a long wait.
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Just cleanse the totems 4headZagrid said:
I know I have been waiting for DS to be removed since the Halloween DLC came out. And NOED since it’s recent buff to one shot at any level.Okapi said:@Zagrid said:
Honestly I don’t care if the game remains as imbalanced as it is now. As long as DS and NOED are removedWell it's been what, 1 year since they said they would nerf DS? So you better get used to a long wait.
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@weirdkid5 said:
ItsYourBoyGuzma said:I always thought your idea to separate swf and solo into their own gamemodes was a decent idea, but not the best.
I feel like once the community gets split into multiple game modes it'll take EVEN longer to find games... And that's without the Dev's adding a hardcore mode (which is no addons, perks, offerings, items) just bare bones vanilla DBD
It's by no means the best solution, but I think it's the most reasonable at the moment. If anything, do a PTB for the Ranked SWF mode and if it goes well push it into a live build.
I be all for this.
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The whole alone and horror feel get stripped away when you're coordinated and know whats happening on the map all game. There's little to no suspense or surprise with SWF as compared to being solo. Not to mention the hell it is on the Killer's side. The Killer a lot of the times becomes the play thing for a group of friends.
Solo gameplay is what makes this game so appealing for me and many others but they kind of shot themselves in the foot when they introduced SWF but SWF is a majority of the playerbase now and Is what keeps new players interested. From a business standpoint It'd be idiotic to remove it.
Introducing Voice coms would be an easy solution but one that goes against the nature of the game, much like SWF already does. Personally I think an Indicator for SWF would be a nice solution but we all know BHVR are afraid to hinder SWF in any way.
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People saying swf was ment to be in game. Then why game isnt balanced around it after 2.5 years?
I play solo or duo. And even duo feels like a god mode.
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Your statement makes no sense. As of right now most people are already playing in voice comms, adding actual ingame chat to the game would barely change anything except that matches without SWF would be more challenging than usual. If you don't like voice chat, turn it off in the options. It's that easy.
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Turning on voice does nothing to help the balance at all. It's a useless feature that does not belong in the game. It makes sense the moment you understand voice comms breaks the whole balance but yknownomorevideos said:Your statement makes no sense. As of right now most people are already playing in voice comms, adding actual ingame chat to the game would barely change anything except that matches without SWF would be more challenging than usual. If you don't like voice chat, turn it off in the options. It's that easy.
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Just a clarification - as I stated earlier, the exact phrase McLean used was, "The Kill Your Friends Mode and Survive with Friends Mode were always intended." The problem for many of us, as we have expressed repeatedly, was the fact that unlike the KYF mode, they never created a SWF mode - instead they forcefully jammed it into the core gameplay, not only completely upsetting the game balance, but also destroying the thematic intensity that made the game what it is for many of us. Because in the same stream, McLean had clarified exactly what builds up the feeling of this game: "this is a game where we tried to have this horror atmosphere, this sense of isolation, there's no spoken dialogue in the game, it's very lonely and quiet, except for the pounding of drums when you are about to die. And that's all intentional. It really builds up the feeling of the game."
As to why they decided to add it, this was what Horvath said in that stream: "Dark Souls and Bloodbourne have tried this, and we've always gotten around voice chat, whether just talking on the phone with my buddy. You can get around anything." and then McLean: "So was the game balanced for it originally? I don't know if I would say it was or wasn't, really... even if it is NOT the 'intended' way to play, we just got to acknowledge that that's how some people do." Ultimately, what they are saying is this: They, the developers, felt powerless to stop people from taking advantage of how the game should be played, so instead they are condoning it. SWF didn't have anything to do with the core idea behind the game, nor is it integral to its gameplay mechanics - they are legitimizing it because they don't want to / can't do anything about it.
Now let me ask what I asked earlier: If makers of Scrabble or Words with Friends can't stop people from using anagram decoder/generator apps, should they legitimize its usage, knowing that it breaks the whole idea of playing Scrabble/Words with Friends, in which you are expected to use the information that is already in your head, and not relying on some outside source/ third party program? And if you think they should, would that even be the same game?
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To "curb the spread is exactly what I mean by a PR statement. It is a RECENT PR statement that backtracks things they have said, they contradict themselves because despite what they say RECENTLY about intention, it was still never actually intended as @knell analysis of McLeans statement proves.Thaznar said:@weirdkid5 said:
Thaznar said:SWF is not going anywhere - accept it. It was always intended for the game as the devs confirmed it recently, but was not ready upon launch. My only problem when I play some killers is that killers are not given enough time to deal with how fast gens are being done. Good team will always put pressure on gens SWF or not.
I never said for it to go away. Try to not put words in my mouth, dont pull that ######### here mate.
Also the vid I posted, released in 2016, contradicts the recent PR statement it was "always supposed to be there."
Your video proves nothing as the devs themselved recently during QA confirmed that SWF was always intended for the game but it was not done so they were forced to release the game without it. They confirmed it specificly to curb the spread of false information further pushing agenda of people like you with their conspiracy theories. As for SWF, they need to implement secondary objective for survivors, punish camping later because it would become to powerful and balance some killers later. Problem witgh this game is it is hard to balance as at times even the smallest thing can cost either side the entire game from which you no longer can recover from.
It's a damage control LIE. Nothing more. Or as Knell puts it, they intended to have a SWF MODE. There is not a separate SWF MODE. It is integrated into the main game. It is not a MODE0 -
I'm not saying i'm for or against it.
I am saying that times change, and so do plans & ideas & concepts & whatnot...1 -
They're never gonna nerf DS. Too popular a perk and survivors would reviewbomb the game in protest.
Behavior doesn't want their cattle upset.1 -
There isn't an easy way to close the SWF and solo Q gap. You can either bring solo Q to SWF levels, SWF down to solo Q levels, or make them both separate game modes. Separate game modes may be our only option to be honest.weirdkid5 said:
It's by no means the best solution, but I think it's the most reasonable at the moment. If anything, do a PTB for the Ranked SWF mode and if it goes well push it into a live build.ItsYourBoyGuzma said:I always thought your idea to separate swf and solo into their own gamemodes was a decent idea, but not the best.
I feel like once the community gets split into multiple game modes it'll take EVEN longer to find games... And that's without the Dev's adding a hardcore mode (which is no addons, perks, offerings, items) just bare bones vanilla DBD0 -
@weirdkid5 said:
To "curb the spread is exactly what I mean by a PR statement. It is a RECENT PR statement that backtracks things they have said, they contradict themselves because despite what they say RECENTLY about intention, it was still never actually intended as @knell analysis of McLeans statement proves.It's a damage control LIE. Nothing more. Or as Knell puts it, they intended to have a SWF MODE. There is not a separate SWF MODE. It is integrated into the main game. It is not a MODE
It would take way more than a month to develop SWF, and therefore they must have been planning it WAY before the game's launch. Also, you ever consider that maybe JUST MAYBE they didn't say anything about SWF before it came out because they didn't want to build expectations? Kind of like what happened with the DS/SC nerfs and Freddy rework. When they say stuff and make promises, then don't deliver they look like asshats. If they keep their mouth shut and only announce things once it's ready they don't. So no it's not damage control, it's not a lie, they aren't backtracking. That's them taking a proper approach to game design and community interaction. They failed at this recently which is why so many people keep posting "Freddy rework when?". They made a promise and failed to deliver in time now they have to deal with people's expectations.
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Well then that still contradicts their intended game design and exactly what M. Cote says in 2016. Sorry but you wont ever convince me that SWF wasn't shoehorned simply because of complaints. Like @knell said, they may have intended a SWF MODE. But that is not what we got.thesuicidefox said:@weirdkid5 said:
To "curb the spread is exactly what I mean by a PR statement. It is a RECENT PR statement that backtracks things they have said, they contradict themselves because despite what they say RECENTLY about intention, it was still never actually intended as @knell analysis of McLeans statement proves.It's a damage control LIE. Nothing more. Or as Knell puts it, they intended to have a SWF MODE. There is not a separate SWF MODE. It is integrated into the main game. It is not a MODE
It would take way more than a month to develop SWF, and therefore they must have been planning it WAY before the game's launch. Also, you ever consider that maybe JUST MAYBE they didn't say anything about SWF before it came out because they didn't want to build expectations? Kind of like what happened with the DS/SC nerfs and Freddy rework. When they say stuff and make promises, then don't deliver they look like asshats. If they keep their mouth shut and only announce things once it's ready they don't. So no it's not damage control, it's not a lie, they aren't backtracking. That's them taking a proper approach to game design and community interaction. They failed at this recently which is why so many people keep posting "Freddy rework when?". They made a promise and failed to deliver in time now they have to deal with people's expectations.
Also, SWF wouldn't take all that long honestly. Lobby infrastructure already exists, as does the matchmaking infrastructure, along with the KYF infrastructure.
All they needed to do was mash these 3 things together. I realize programming isn't easy, I'm a programmer myself. But when you already have 3 of the main facets needed to do SWF already in place, it really shouldn't be that arduous of a task to make a slightly different lobby where the people search together instead of starting a private match.
Yall suckin up that good PR juice mmm1 -
@weirdkid5 said:
... Survivors kept lobby dodging to play with friends in a game ...That is your issue right there. Most of it boils down to this and the concept of circumventing the game.
Basically... You want to include a mode that allows friends to play together but still be in "ranked"... or earning Blood Points... bascially.. Not in a KYF type of mode, where you don't progress at all.
Now...
You want a separate the queues for solo players and a "ranked game mode for SWF / solo"?
However... You state one of the biggest issues in the game that occurred when there was no ability to play with your friends in a "ranked" lobby (one that earns progress, rank and bloodponts).
So how are you going to prevent people from dodging lobbies like before? Put in a penalty for the lobby dodging?.. How much of a penalty do you give to those dodgers where it won't damage the queue? Maybe this issue can be fixed... but...
What about those that are in an existing lobby and tell others to join their discord? Remove chat?... Ok.. So...
How do you prevent others from figuring out who you are in a match.. Send an invite in steam and send you a discord link?
I mean to remove all these sort of features to prevent people from joining up in Discord, seems like allot of effort for nothing.
Cause it seems to me.. If you are being forced to play solo, you can still join up is discord with solo players if you want. It doesn't take 5 minutes to join a discord server. Do you think others won't do this?.... Cause I've seen it sometimes in a random lobby, so to me that would increase.
You have no way to prevent people from using VOIP... Are they going to start banning for it?... But if you include SWF within another "game mode" then you accept VOIP on their machine.. So how can you determine they aren't using VOIP in the solo queue compared to the SWF queue?
The issue in general is... You can't for 100% remove VOIP from the game, cause if there is a will there is a way to circumvent it.
If you can't remove it 100%... without being able to punish it 100%... Then you might as well accept it will be in all aspects of the game, even if you don't like it. So you might aswell then balance around that concept, since it is there regardless if you want it or not.
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I actually have a fix for lobby dodging in the Solo queue. It would work like this:TheBean said:@weirdkid5 said:
... Survivors kept lobby dodging to play with friends in a game ...That is your issue right there. Most of it boils down to this and the concept of circumventing the game.
Basically... You want to include a mode that allows friends to play together but still be in "ranked"... or earning Blood Points... bascially.. Not in a KYF type of mode, where you don't progress at all.
Now...
You want a separate the queues for solo players and a "ranked game mode for SWF / solo"?
However... You state one of the biggest issues in the game that occurred when there was no ability to play with your friends in a "ranked" lobby (one that earns progress, rank and bloodponts).
So how are you going to prevent people from dodging lobbies like before? Put in a penalty for the lobby dodging?.. How much of a penalty do you give to those dodgers where it won't damage the queue? Maybe this issue can be fixed... but...
What about those that are in an existing lobby and tell others to join their discord? Remove chat?... Ok.. So...
How do you prevent others from figuring out who you are in a match.. Send an invite in steam and send you a discord link?
I mean to remove all these sort of features to prevent people from joining up in Discord, seems like allot of effort for nothing.
Cause it seems to me.. If you are being forced to play solo, you can still join up is discord with solo players if you want. It doesn't take 5 minutes to join a discord server. Do you think others won't do this?.... Cause I've seen it sometimes in a random lobby, so to me that would increase.
You have no way to prevent people from using VOIP... Are they going to start banning for it?... But if you include SWF within another "game mode" then you accept VOIP on their machine.. So how can you determine they aren't using VOIP in the solo queue compared to the SWF queue?
The issue in general is... You can't for 100% remove VOIP from the game, cause if there is a will there is a way to circumvent it.
If you can't remove it 100%... without being able to punish it 100%... Then you might as well accept it will be in all aspects of the game, even if you don't like it. So you might aswell then balance around that concept, since it is there regardless if you want it or not.
All Survivors cannot see other Survivors nor can they communicate with them before the match starts (it's already this way on console, there is no pregame chat) all Survivors are represented by blank placeholder models that do not indicate which Survivor the person is playing. Names cannot be seen, and neither can the other Survivors items. This way, even if people queue together, there will be no way you can tell if you are in the same game together.
This goes back to the "no communication" aspect of the game. The Survivors should not be able to coordinate their efforts before the game starts, unless it is specifically in the SWF mode. The reason I don't want the game to be balanced around it generally is because I will cease to enjoy the game at that point. I play the game for the solo experience. That's why I bought it. The moment I get paired with a 3 stack of SWF hand holders my game is already less enjoyable from the start.
As far as dodging, you could implement a method for both Survivors and Killers so that the first dodge is only 5 seconds, but begin to exponentially increase how long it takes so that dodging doesn't become an issue, up to waiting 2 minutes for dodging so much. The timer would not reset until after 24 hours of your first dodge. This will keep Survivors from dodging to find friends (which they wont be able to anyway if they can't see who's in the lobby) and the Killer would have less reason to dodge because the Survivors cannot coordinate their efforts as easily. This way you make it similar to games like Siege and Overwatch where once you are in the match, there is no backing out.0 -
Personally I think any developer making a game such as this when you put 4 people versus 1 always has to plan on having friends playing together and I truly believe the devs planned on this mode.
What I do not think they planned on or had a clue about was the impact people on comms could and would have on the game and now they have the problem of trying to balance between the two sets of players.
They now have to think about how to do it and seperating the queues could be detrimental to the game as how many killers would willingly want to play that mode? They could give incentives so they would want too but if they are too much that could make solo queues too long.
They have tried buffing solo and it has not worked so far as each buff also buffs swf, it keeps the gap intact and a lot agree there is no way to make solo as strong with what they are doing.
Adding voice is also not the answer imo as it takes away fundamental parts if the game, it also makes those who don't want to speak, live in regions with multiple languages or have no mic at a disadvantage so it creates issues with the playerbase who have played how the devs envisaged the game.
This is why over the years my stance if SWF changed and I think they should look at bringing them into line with solo players by ways of nerfs, it's going to take a lot of thinking and work about how to go about it but that's my opinion on the scenario.0 -
I have also proposed nerfing people that are queued together in a SWF squad, but they already shout and moan about being "punished" for playing with their friends.twistedmonkey said:Personally I think any developer making a game such as this when you put 4 people versus 1 always has to plan on having friends playing together and I truly believe the devs planned on this mode.
What I do not think they planned on or had a clue about was the impact people on comms could and would have on the game and now they have the problem of trying to balance between the two sets of players.
They now have to think about how to do it and separating the queues could be detrimental to the game as how many killers would willingly want to play that mode? They could give incentives so they would want too but if they are too much that could make solo queues too long.
They have tried buffing solo and it has not worked so far as each buff also buffs swf, it keeps the gap intact and a lot agree there is no way to make solo as strong with what they are doing.
Adding voice is also not the answer imo as it takes away fundamental parts if the game, it also makes those who don't want to speak, live in regions with multiple languages or have no mic at a disadvantage so it creates issues with the playerbase who have played how the devs envisaged the game.
This is why over the years my stance if SWF changed and I think they should look at bringing them into line with solo players by ways of nerfs, it's going to take a lot of thinking and work about how to go about it but that's my opinion on the scenario.
They need to realize that there needs to be some give and take here for breaking the balance of the game so heavily. The Killer in the SWF mode would need more than just a BP increase, he would still need buffs to compensate for the communication, but I agree that buffing Solo Survivors only buffs the SWF squad even further and makes the gap just as wide as it was before.0 -
@weirdkid5 said:
I actually have a fix for lobby dodging in the Solo queue. It would work like this:All Survivors cannot see other Survivors nor can they communicate with them before the match starts (it's already this way on console, there is no pregame chat) all Survivors are represented by blank placeholder models that do not indicate which Survivor the person is playing. Names cannot be seen, and neither can the other Survivors items. This way, even if people queue together, there will be no way you can tell if you are in the same game together.
This goes back to the "no communication" aspect of the game. The Survivors should not be able to coordinate their efforts before the game starts, unless it is specifically in the SWF mode. The reason I don't want the game to be balanced around it generally is because I will cease to enjoy the game at that point. I play the game for the solo experience. That's why I bought it. The moment I get paired with a 3 stack of SWF hand holders my game is already less enjoyable from the start.
As far as dodging, you could implement a method for both Survivors and Killers so that the first dodge is only 5 seconds, but begin to exponentially increase how long it takes so that dodging doesn't become an issue, up to waiting 2 minutes for dodging so much. The timer would not reset until after 24 hours of your first dodge. This will keep Survivors from dodging to find friends (which they wont be able to anyway if they can't see who's in the lobby) and the Killer would have less reason to dodge because the Survivors cannot coordinate their efforts as easily. This way you make it similar to games like Siege and Overwatch where once you are in the match, there is no backing out.
Well you never know. They could remove it so you can't tell who you are playing against / with, until the end of the match.. I would have not issue with that. I feel allot of killers won't like it, but maybe it would be worth it if they knew they weren't getting SWFs in their lobby.
I just don't see it happening though. I think it would be more of a nightmare from their side in.. cause now you have to think of more balancing issues between the 2 modes.. Do you have some killers who only play within the one game mode cause of balancing issue with playing against 4 solos.. etc.
But you never know.. The pop is getting bigger.. so they could do some experimenting with some ideas.
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The Killer would still be able to see the Survivors so he can plan his loadout, that won't change. It's just if he see 4x toolboxes he'll only be able to dodge a few times before being forced to suck it up and play. He just won't be able to see the names of the Survivors so he cant dodge certain players. This is part of the intended design, where the Killer is allowed to prepare for the Survivors.TheBean said:Well you never know. They could remove it so you can't tell who you are playing against / with, until the end of the match.. I would have not issue with that. I feel allot of killers won't like it, but maybe it would be worth it if they knew they weren't getting SWFs in their lobby.
I just don't see it happening though. I think it would be more of a nightmare from their side in.. cause now you have to think of more balancing issues between the 2 modes.. Do you have some killers who only play within the one game mode cause of balancing issue with playing against 4 solos.. etc.
But you never know.. The pop is getting bigger.. so they could do some experimenting with some ideas.
I suggested that this kind of thing be tested in a PTB, and it goes well, test it in a live build with the main population. If it doesn't go well, simply roll back the previous update.0 -
Agreed, I think they should first look at 4 man SWF and test some changes on a ptb and ask the streamers to participate as a favour, adding extra gens, totems perks respawning after being destroyed to another once or twice, no add-on or item stacking could be a start.weirdkid5 said:I have also proposed nerfing people that are queued together in a SWF squad, but they already shout and moan about being "punished" for playing with their friends.
They need to realize that there needs to be some give and take here for breaking the balance of the game so heavily. The Killer in the SWF mode would need more than just a BP increase, he would still need buffs to compensate for the communication, but I agree that buffing Solo Survivors only buffs the SWF squad even further and makes the gap just as wide as it was before.
Perks is a bit of a grey area to myself as go nerf something they earned doesn't feel right but at the same time some are stronger with swf, I don't know how I really feel about that option.
It does get harder balancing when there is solo players in the queue so a 4 man SWF test is a good place to try something at least.
Something really has to be done in a new direction imo as it certainly has not been working with what they are trying so far.
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