Why are anti-loop killers so disliked?
I’ve come to notice that many people don’t enjoy anti-loop or chase oriented killers.
i’ve just come here to ask why, because i personally don’t see the issues (besides a few killers).
i don’t think we all want to loop every killer basically the exact same way, and look at sadako, she’s not very good for a reason, 0 anti-loop.
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I think some players have gotten used to looping killers conventionally but when they run into a killer that doesn't follow these rules and makes survivors play differently they don't know what to do and get mad.
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antiloop means the only strategy is throw pallet earlier and hold w until the killer gets distracted or you go down after consuming as much time as possible. It's an effective strategy, just boring.
The fun part of most matches is the chase, and particularly sneaky or clever hide or a ballsy rescue that works... the less of that in each game the more boring it gets
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Because there is no other defense to killers but the chase. Hide? That's laughable.
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not full immersive, but when you time a walk around a car and the killer never guesses you were there, to then grab a rescue right under their nose. That's fun!
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Because you're not playing a game against antiloop killers, you're watching a cutscene of getting hit by their unavoidable power or zoned to death with nothing you can do about it.
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get gud
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Exactly with all this anti-loop initiative they've done...pressing hard w and throwing pallets is the only way to reliably chase now. They took the fun out of mind gaming the loop, much like how killers feel they are forced to camp or tunnel, survivors are forced to hit w now.
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Because some survivors want this 1v4 game to play like a 1v1 game. Where they have every advantage possible to keep evading the killer and never getting hit, despite that fact that a killer will need up to 24 hits over the course of one game.
And, hilariously, the Dev Team has bought into that line of thinking, making new maps just absolutely teeming with god pallets.
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Because people who only play one side think the game is all about looping, well,.... it's not. Some killers you have to outplay at mindgames or just be better than they are at loops.
It throws people off from what they expect a normal game to be,... "do gens, get in a chase loop killer, teabag them at exit gate."
Much like Legion is doing right now, Legion plays the 1v4 and it throws them off entirely. Same with Twins
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Chases and looping is the most fun thing in the game. Anti-loop killers are just deny that fun.
Dose Un-anti-loop killer means = weak? no look at Huntress, Oni, Hillbilly. They all great killers and also fun to face.
But look at Trickster, or Nemesis... uhh
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Can you loop a Huntress?
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Because they are beatable but have some things that make them unenjoyable to face like hard zoning and quick time to use their power and can make windows a loose-loose scenario. A few them could likely be changed to not have to be this like Trickster or Nemesis.
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If we ignore some of her hitbox problems, Yes you can loop her.
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The reason is simply that many survivors do not want to make the effort to learn anything other than :
"I dropped the pallet, I'm so strong, ooh there! Then I go to the Jungle Gym, I go through the window, I'm so strong, oh my! Oh well, I'm going to the shack now, I'm such a boss, oh my!" 🤣
So of course, when they meet a killer who asks to be a little more subtle ... my god ... it's the end of the world ... everything falls apart for them ... and then they come up with a topic like "Need to nerf the nurse add-ons!" 😁
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Ok aside from this ridiculous reply. Let me ask you, what do you think makes the game fun for the survivors?
Spending more than one second imagining how the other side plays, might make real dialogue possible.
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Survivors: "we enjoy chases it is the most fun in the game"
Also survivors: "3 spine chills in one match"
ps, 1000s of hours on both sides
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Endless looping is not fun for the killer. What is fun is scoring downs using unique powers well. A perfectly aimed hatchet or blink, a chainsaw sprint straight into a survivor, a fully charged shred, a stealth grab off a gen while shrouded, or a mark and an instadown, a fifth frenzy hit, etc.
With non-anti-loop killers it's just a war of attrition. You loop around and around for 60 seconds, you eventually get close, you then have a small chance of downing the survivor, or they Dead Hard and you continue for another 30 seconds, then eventually you hit M1 and get the down. Gee fun.
Looping is the killer equivalent of "holding M1 to repair a gen". We don't want every survivor interaction to be "chase survivor in predictable pattern for predictable amount of time until every pallet in range is spent and I finally get close enough to press M1 once." We want several opportunities to press M2, with the success of doing so directly correlating to our skill with that M2. (Or M2 + M1 depending on how the power works)
The problem is so many mechanics in this game are one-sided snowball effects. One side will always be miffed.
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Hatchet through window says no.
And not just behind you, many shots i get are through a window to catch a surv thats run into the view from other side of the loop.
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You’re forgetting that chaining tiles together is also effective. In fact survivors who understand how to chain tiles together into a larger combined loop are harder to catch than survivor who just loop a single tile all the time.
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What makes the games fun? I would say: when everyone can enjoy the game, why?
And I know very well how survivors play, since I play a killer AND a survivor.
And when I say that the survivors don't know, for the most part, how to counteract the nurses, I include myself in said survivors!
But I'm learning, I'm doing my best, I'm thinking a bit ☺️
And I think to myself, if the nurse caught me, maybe I also made a mistake, maybe I wasn't good enough?
After that, there are no mysteries: if a survivor is serious about learning how to defend himself against a nurse, he can ask one of his friends who knows how to deal with this killer to play personalized games in 1 VS 1 to train himself 😀
Sometimes you think, "Oh, the training, it will come with the public parts ..."
Except that, when you have 27 killers, 26 of them have the same way of moving ...
[And YES, I count the spirit and the blight in these 26 because, even if they have an inherent power to move, the rest of the time, they walk like any other killer SO the "classic" looping methods work on them too]
... and of course, the number of times the survivors can really train against a nurse is not that important.
But not impossible: you just have to want it 😉
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because holding "W" and pressing "E" doesn't work.
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This honestly:
Dead by Daylights biggest problem — Dead By Daylight
tldr of that is basically...
Killers should dominate the 1v1 and survivors should dominate the 1v4... but Survivors winning the 1v4 isn't particularly fun because gens are boring. To make the game more fun, BHVR has made Survivors much more equal to killers in the 1v1... the chase... because that's fun. The problem is that they can't then balance out survivors being better than they should be in the 1v1 by nerfing the 1v4 because generators aren't fun.
So we have a problem of Anti Loop Killers make chases not fun anymore because it slants the 1v1 back in their favor.
Legion and killers like them that drastically delay the game to make room for more chase time aren't fun because they cause a lot more holding M1.
Only real way to fix it is somehow make generators fun to do.
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there is a bit of diference between hard anti loop and a fair anti loop killer like blight (if played correctly he can prevent looping consistenly)
now hard anti loop are probably the most opressive on chase with just leads to survivors holding "W" or "playing safe only" as only resources (like Artist, just put crowns on both sides at any loop and you just negates the loop entirely..having in mind that you are placing crows correctly)
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Well if it was anti-loop that required skilled play I wouldn't take much issue, such as PH landing his Punishment of the Damned through walls by predicting survivor movement. However generally the reason most people hate anti-loop killers is because what it turns into in reality is just circling the loop a couple times until you're forced to pallet throw and get hit through locked animation or try to bait it and still get m1'd. There isn't much skilled interaction going on there. Hence why people just pre drop pallets for a lot of those killers.
So less of the issue is "anti-loop" killers as a concept and more of an issue of how BHVR has designed their anti-loop killers. They take away from the funnest part of the game for survivors which is the chase.
Honestly I think the better killer design route to go is more focused around map pressure and game slow down. This allows survivors to have their long fun chases that they enjoy but at the same time those chases don't cost the killer as heavily. IE focusing the killer design more around handling a 1v4 rather than a 1v1.
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... Because that is literally the whole point of the game. If you take that away there is no game.
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Huntress is an anti-loop killer and I like her, same could be said about Bubba and many other killers. What I dislike are killers such as Artist, or Nemesis, where your skill as a Survivor is effectively irrelevant and you either pre-drop every pallet asap or you leave every loop. That’s not fun. One of the skills you develop is looping, and it’s debatably one of the most fun things in the game (when maps are properly designed and have fun and fair tiles), but more and more killers have been designed (artist, nemesis) as to where they render that aspect of the game irrelevant and counter it completely with very little input.
While Huntress has to predict the Survivor a bit and has to learn where she can and cannot throw over a tile, Artist can simply place a single crow at the pallet and now the Survivor HAS to leave. If the Survivor tries to loop that tile, they get hit, every time.
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ِAcutally introducing many anti-loop killers is what made survivors to relay more on holding W and never un-equip the E perk.
Before 2020 holding W wasn't a thing yet.
"a killer who asks to be a little more subtle"
Like Trickster and Nemesis? When you vault/throw pallets you get hit and when you dont you also get hit. Yeah that is indeed the survivor problem for being not skillfull enough to fly.
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Anti loop or not Anti loop, Survivors will always drop pallets.
The different between them is "Predrop pallet and W" vs "Mind game, make a few loops before dropping pallet". The later definitely requires more skill.
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I'm talking about those who just press W+E without thinking. The people who just want to run in circles against an M1 Killer. Those are the ones who are pissed off at Antiloop killer because you need really a bit more brain than press just two buttons.
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Yeah basically people think there is one way to play the game and anything that changes that up is somehow bad and needs to be changed or removed.
Its possible to loop, run and pallet stun nurse but just like playing nurse it requires practice. Most players don't want to put in that effort they just want to loop every killer the same way.
Anti loop is fine in fact its healthier for the game than killers that don't have it. The less viable chases are the more viable hook defence is and everybody hates camping but they don't want to see the viability of killer chase buffed.
So they want a set up where they can play bold all the time, endlessly loop and have anti camping protection all in one, which is just nuts. If it comes to that might as well just call it survive by daylight because the threat of death will keep getting weaker and weaker.
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There was barely any mind gaming to begin with.
Too many maps are filled with safe loops which are in the survivor's favour against M1 killers, so no one uses them. Killers run from one loop to the next, staring at a kick animation while generators pop.
"Anti-Loop" exists because M1 game play is obsolete. Generators are so fast there's no time to chew through a million safe pallets.
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See for me, the fun is doing something surprising and either effective or funny. Throwing shack pallet, then running around behind the killer as he breaks the pallet and following for a bit was a riot. Of course, he heard my footsteps and stomped me. Using the hooked survivor as a shield, unhooking, then throwing a body block so we both escaped the camping killer was brilliant fun. I think both of those matches, I ended up getting sacrificed, but I had fun.
The one thing I despise in this game, is doing nothing. I hate just hanging on the hook, and similarly I hate mending endlessly. It's boring. Give legion rocket power jetpacks where he can fly all over the map but make the interaction fun for survivors too. Just get rid of the damn mend mechanic.
I do not care if I escape or not, I want to try hard with escape as the goal, but I want to be able to play the game.
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There’s nothing inherently wrong with anti-loop. If anything, every single killer should have it. The only issue really is the way it is designed.
On one hand you have anti-loop like Nurse/Blight/etc where it allows for mindgaming from both sides, and thus allows the more skilled player at mindgaming to succeed in trades. However, making unique and mindgameable anti-loop powers like this is difficult. However, this is the ideal design.
On the other hand, you have anti-loop like Nemesis and similar where it is just “M2 for a hit at a vault or pallet drop animation lock”. There is really no way to avoid the M2 other than to not put yourself in an animation lock, but by not vaulting or dropping the pallet, you will get hit a few seconds later anyways. Thus, while this kind of power is very easy to create, it also gives next to no agency, and thus becomes the just “hold W until hit” strategy because attempting to vault or pallet drop is an automatic hit.
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That's exactly right.
Some survivors learn to play against the nurse, and manage to get by.
Others (like me) don't especially make the effort to train against, but don't come in complaining daily that the evil nurse is too strong.
And the others: those who don't want to make the effort to learn anything other than the classic "Shack-pallet-LT-pallet-window-double L-pallet" and then come to complain when with a little bit of questioning ...
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There's two main issues I see. First we got a bunch of anti loop killers in a row. So lack of variety. Second anti loop killers mean you have to predrop pallets and hold w. Obviously that's not exactly the most interesting game play.
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The issue is that anti-loop killers that are heavily inconsistent become ineffective at anti-loop because their power is not shortening the chases. Many killer powers have semblance like they're suppose to end chases faster but their chases just end up being as long if not longer than normal killers. Nemesis is perfect example of this. The fact that his power gives survivor 3 health states +4 vials of free health states means that even though he has more chances to hit people. his chases end up being longer than other killers.
A lot of the game is already focused on generator defense perks. Old Ruin+Pop, Old undying+Ruin, now CI+Dead man switch. Its been focused on generator slowdown and 4vs1 map pressure for its entire lifespan. The lack of interactivity at pallet loops on strong survivor maps just leads the killer to need to break like 75% of the map before he gets to the point where he can play 25% of the pallet loops where he can get hits on. For all strong survivor teams, you'll basically lose all generators by the time you ever break the map.
I think generator defense perks just promote the killer to break loops and press spacebar simulator until all the safe pallets are gone in attempts to break most of the map before losing all 5 generators. Winning the game as killer because the entire map is deadzone is boring for killer. I don't think its healthy gameplay loop but its gameplay loop recipe that they've been using for years.
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I don't disagree.
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Because they can't run around the same pallet multiple times and be completely safe while doing so
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Its atleast for me, takes away from the most fun part of chases as survivor/killer. Looping a pallet requires a survivor to pay attention do mind games anticipate what the killer is gonna do and same goes for the other side. Anti-loop killers make that part of the chase basically none existent which makes it so the most viable option just holding w and pre-dropping pallets which is infinitely more boring IMO than looping
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A lot of survivors are in denial about how safe loops are
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Think it's the anti part.
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Don't know, don't care, Bird Mommy is the most fun I've had playing Dead By Daylight in a while
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Yet every time they design a killer like that someone thens starts the killer is OP or killer needs nerf comments. The two that come to mind are Pinhead and Legion and look at the amount of complaints they get.
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Yeah there are a lot of people very loud about the game that also don't know much about the game. Unfortunately.
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