What should Shattered Hope's secondary effect be?

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mistar_z
mistar_z Member Posts: 857

How it works right now in the PTB, is that it gives you aura outline reading to anyone withing its radius. That's good and all for when there is a boon.

BUT.. In the off chance that survivor do however decide not to bring any boons with them. And you're not trying to do a Pentimento build.

Comments

  • GlamourousLeviathan
    GlamourousLeviathan Member Posts: 976
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    Yeah, but as you said, you can actually see the items survivors are bringing so I doubt anyone would bring these two perks without any item lobby. You wouldn't have that knowledge with Shattered Hope.

  • GentlemanFridge
    GentlemanFridge Member Posts: 5,407
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    Fearmonger is near-enough pointless if they don't bring exhaustion perks. Not that that's at all likely, but it's theoretically possible.

  • scenekiller
    scenekiller Member Posts: 890
    edited May 2022
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    It doesn’t need one. You’re taking that chance by bringing it.

    There are a plethora of survivor perks that depend on the killer’s behavior, or can be negated by the killer not doing or bringing something - heck, even the occasional meta perk like DS can be completely negated.

    it’s completely valid and ok for killers to have some perks like this also.

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 5,648
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    Hm... what if it was a repair speed decrease for every totem standing in the trial? Not a large one, maybe 2% per bone, but enough to encourage survivors to cleanse totems.

    Might be too good with Pentimento, though.

    Maybe increasing kicking speed? Not as good as Brutal Strength (unless we also link it to number of totems standing), but this is a perk about stomping on things extra hard, so...

  • scenekiller
    scenekiller Member Posts: 890
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    But the opposite side of this argument is, there’s a better chance with 4 people that one will bring a boon, thus justifying the risk assessment of bringing Shattered Hope.

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 5,648
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    Sure, you can have a perk that only works if your opponents bring something you can't tell in advance, but don't expect anyone to use it after the first week. Because, like... when's the last time you saw someone bring Distortion? It's not a bad effect, but it's hella unreliable and won't even work against all of the killer info perks. Smash Hit isn't a bad idea, but it banks on the killer being an M1 killer and not respecting pallets, so it's utterly not worth it. Calm Spirit? Great against Doctor or Infectious Fright, but your odds of facing those aren't nearly high enough to justify the perk choice. The meta trio of DS/BT/UB is so prominent because tunneling/camping/slugging is so common - and it'd be even more common if not for the meta. Remember the immediate uptick in tunneling when DS was nerfed? The point is that it's not just a favorable gamble, it's a deterrent (which in and of itself only works because it's meta.) I'm not saying I'm happy with the state of things, mind. I think it sucks that survivors have to bring perks in order to protect themselves from things killers can always do to force them out of the game early. But there's a reason those three perks are used and something like Repressed Alliance isn't.

    I feel it's really important to note that Shattered Hope isn't anything groundbreaking against most matches with boons. What it does is protect against those really inconvenient totem spots like Ironworks catwalks or Temple basement, and it also can break up a 3-gen stalemate in the killer's favor. In a bog-standard match with Circle of Healing, the totem's going to get broken once or twice and relocated somewhere else. It might slow down the booner if they don't know where other totems are, but by no means is it stopping boons from being present in the match. Going around hunting for boons instead of survivors is still throwing the game. This perk is not a hard counter the way UB counters slugging or BT counters camping (DS, I believe could use some work as a true anti-tunneling perk), so I really don't think it's worth the risk of bringing when there's a fair chance it has no potential for use at all.

    I feel like Lightborn is a fair comparison to make here. Lightborn is a perk that does nothing if the survivors don't have flashlights, firecrackers, or flashbangs - but I can see two out of these three things in the lobby and the first one is by far the most common (not to mention I just don't care about flashbangs period, too easy to dodge.) I don't care if I see one or two flashlights in the lobby, and I can handle that on my own, but three makes me leery and four makes me grab for Lightborn. I don't care if there's a Circle of Healing in the survivors' lineup, but if there's boons and a map offering, that's when Shattered Hope would be worth it. But I can't know that the same way I can know about Lightborn, and the perk really will not do enough in most matches for me to ever spend the perk slot on it. It'd be like bringing Mad Grit every game in case I face a bodyblocker squad. I can't afford to do that. Nobody does that. And if flashlights were invisible in the lobby, nobody would ever bring Lightborn, because why would you bring a perk that's going to give you value once every fifteen games when you can bring a perk that's going to give you value every game?

    Meanwhile, you can look at a perk like Soul Guard, which isn't popular but I do see it used more than any of the survivor perks I listed earlier. You only get its full value if the killer's running a hex, which isn't something you can predict, but it has a secondary effect that always applies and that gives it a place in some builds.

  • scenekiller
    scenekiller Member Posts: 890
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    Oh, I agree with you 100%. There’s a whole separate conversation to be had about perk viability and usage. I personally would love to see a lot of perk buffs for killer and survivor both.

    My point was more toward the idea that only killers can have infallible perks, or that all killer perks have to have viability regardless of what survivors bring. If we’re going to assess killer perks based on viability, and not leave room for guesswork as to if any use will be obtained, we should assess perks for survivors the same way as well.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,412
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    Should also allow you to break dull totems.

  • TMNoThumbs
    TMNoThumbs Member Posts: 120
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    Thats still a bit of a problem, an organized SWF will likely only have one person running COH. That means the killer is using one fourth of their loadout to counter one sixteenth of the survivors loadout. Thats a big ask to simply deal with one problematic perk.

  • GoshJosh
    GoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992
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    Blindness really hurts solos - especially if Kindred is in play.

  • ukenicky
    ukenicky Member Posts: 1,352
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    It doesn't need an extra effect. This perk is about to make pentimento meta rampant.

    No killer will use shattered hope without pentimento / hex heavy build. Seriously I can see it now:

    Shattered Hope / Hex: Ruin / Hex: Undying / Hex: Pentimento

    Eternal slowdown and punishes anyone who cleanses your hexes or tries to boon.

    You literally only need 1 stack of Pentimento for it to hurt too so it's easy to control if multiple totems get cleansed and broken. You can relight a Penti when you want if the first gets cleansed. It's incredibly powerful slowdown

  • GoshJosh
    GoshJosh Member Posts: 4,992
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    Quoting this comment so I can come back and remember it when it doesn’t happen.

  • ukenicky
    ukenicky Member Posts: 1,352
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    Even if it did it isn't like you'd acknowledge it 😞

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 5,648
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    That's all fine and dandy until you set up 5 stacks of Pentimento in the first minute of the game. Considering survivors don't know where the bones are yet, there's a real chance the killer gets it off.

    If builds like that were meta, you'd see Ruin/Undying/Thrill/Devour every game. The build you just listed will only make survivors cleanse two totems. That's very little Pentimento value, and survivors aren't going to mess with totems once they understand they'll just give you more stacks of Pentimento - so you can either wait in hopes that they'll boon or cleanse random bones, allowing early gens to be done without the 30% slowdown, or you pull it out early and that's it for your Pentimento value. Pentimento totems tend to get cleansed quickly because at least one survivor already knows where they are. Trust me, I've run Pentimento-non-Plaything hex builds before and they're very lackluster. Plus hex builds are inherently unreliable and don't leave room for staple perks - where's the info perk in a build like that? Where's the chase perk?

    Plaything/Pentimento is still way better than what you're proposing. You're correct that nobody will run Shattered Hope without that kind of hex-and-Pentimento backup, but the number of people who are going to take it along isn't nearly as high as you're predicting. It's a bad perk and it's not going to break into the meta anytime soon.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,613
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    I don't think it'll be super common but someone will do it eventually. That doesn't justify not giving it a secondary effect, though.

  • Adjatha
    Adjatha Member Posts: 1,814
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    It should work on dull totems (with the same aura-reading radius) as well as boons. Problem solved.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,714
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    I couldn't care less what people have in the lobby and I sometimes bring Lightborn because why not? Survivors swap their loadouts all the time at the last minute even if I did care enough to see what they were holding.

  • sizzlingmario4
    sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,613
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    If it did that then its pentimento synergy would have to be removed.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389
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    Uhhhh. What happens on the games without a boon? They do happen, you know. Then you're just a 3 perk Andy.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,412
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    "That's all fine and dandy until you set up 5 stacks of Pentimento in the first minute of the game. Considering survivors don't know where the bones are yet, there's a real chance the killer gets it off."

    The killer doesn't know where they're at either. You're gonna lose 4 gens while you waste time walking around trying to light them all. Not to mention the survivors literally seeing you doing this entire thing to walk over and break one as soon as you leave.

  • bm33
    bm33 Member Posts: 8,096
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    It doesn't need additional effects, it's the risk you take choosing it in your load out. If you run Enduring or Spirit Fury v survivors that don't drop pallets/try to stun you there isn't some additional effect. The perks are there for killers that need help countering specific survivor plays that the killer has a difficult time with, they don't need additional effects.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333
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    agreed, if they give ds, ub and bt another adicional effect if the killer doesn’t camp, tunnel or slug

  • Cameragosha
    Cameragosha Member Posts: 630
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    It worst perk.

  • DrDeepwound
    DrDeepwound Member Posts: 2,557
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    It should give killer same ability to see the totem the way new Noed will for survs

    a progressive increasing perimeter with totem aura shown, if its good for noed its good for boons which are in almost every match, noed, hardly ever