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No Mither ? No Way !
This perk has been the laughing stock of the survivor community.
We've all been there where we spawn in and see someone else taking the perk and groan in shame as the 4k looms above.
We've also been there for whatever reason where we take the perk and live to regret it.
But, let's not forget, the perk is working as intended as a meme 'Hard-Mode' perk.
Should the perk be changed so that it's actually fun to bring, something that doesn't destroy the game for your allies, or should it remain a joke perk to challenge yourself with?
If the perk does change to become a viable pick to bring into the Trial, what should the rework look like?
What incarnation of No Mither would make it attractive for YOU to bring into your matches frequently?
What would keep you from saying... 'No Mither ? No Way !'
Comments
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Not ever having the option to heal is such an obvious detriment to yourself and the team, it’s no wonder the perk never sees the light of day. Not to mention a killer will basically never slug when they see it’s in play. Unless you always go down under a pallet or something.
The perk needs a rework, quite honestly. No more permanent broken status.
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Everytime a random teammate brings this garbage perk they get tunneled out quick. So why would I want to use this perk? Being injured and having the killer already know that you are one shot makes it super unattractive to use
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What's funny is, the devs comment on this. I dont remember who it was, but I remember they said something along the lines of "No Mither gives you the advantages of being injured in exchange of..."
When somebody says that, you already know they don't play the game.
Anyway, No Mither, to make it worth it, it would need a serious overhaul.
Example:
- 1. Make the next hit you take put you on Borrowed Time, not put you down.
- 2. Completely nulify sound, so you don't need to waste an obvious slot on Iron Will.
- 3. Make recovery/crawling faster by default.
- 4. No Blood stains.
It'd still be stronger to just not bring No Mither, but I think that'd actually make the perk circumstancially appealling.
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Like I mentioned above, you’d need to totally remove the permanent broken status for starters. You can’t even consistently go for unhooks while injured, if the killer is anywhere nearby. It also hurts the team versus an Oni or killer with Thanataphobia. I don’t mind if you start the trial injured, but need to have the option to heal throughout the trial.
As @Sumnox also said above, it should also have 100% reduction of groans of pain. It’s weird it’s not right now for how risky the perk is to run. A weaker Tenacity effect would be fine too. I don’t agree with permanent endurance status effect, because it would actually be stronger than being healthy against insta-down killer powers and perks. Perhaps it could be earned and/or have a limited number of times it gives endurance. Or you have endurance only while broken as well.
Maybe you get the broken status for 60 seconds when taking a protection hit, keeping in line with David’s play style and other two perks.
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These changes would make No Mither perfect:
- Survivors don´t start the trial injured.
- No broken status effect shown to the killer.
- Bonus bloodpoints.
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Yeah the only thing I know this perk being used in a 'beneficial' way is one guy deliberately allowing themselves to be downed in a position that has only one eligible hook and then someone else sabotages that hook. The killer is now in zugzwang to use a chess term which basically means any move they make loses, if they pick them up they don't make it to a hook, if the killer doesn't, they get up on their own. They can also run other perks which make it difficult for the killer to transport or whatever.
Granted the only winning move in this scenario is not to play and ignore the guy but that can take time to figure out. There are also a few maps and RNG where there's a lot of spots where this is viable. Heaven help you if THREE people are in on this.
Considering this? It absolutely should have another effect entirely if it's best contribution to the game is basically bullying.
Why does David have such polarising perks? Even We gunna live forever while not overpowered is still the best bloodpoint booster.
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no mither more like no bitches
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I would actually argue WGLF is overpowered since its buff.. removes any ability for a killer to pressure by slugging. Ruins Twins all by itself. It should be nerfed in half to a 50% faster healing speed on slugs.
Sorry to go slightly off topic.
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Not to go completely off topic but if dead hard is going to be nerfed then no mither should be reworked completely.
No Mither was created with dead hard in mind. Could you imagine how David would be the absolute worst survivor if they made no Mither without dead hard
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I know half of the possible process to make No Water viable,
Firstly the benefits need to own up to the hindrance, Broken but can pick themselves up,
yeah, the killer can literally see you are broken and injured since the start of the trial.
So picking yourself up isn't exactly the most exciting thing to run this for.
If it increased gen speed or healing or anything like that, or had a different effect, that would be much better.
The downfall would be inability to heal to full,
or the perk could be even stronger, with the downside of the perk being the only one you could use, covering all 4 slots by itself.
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The only thing I would change about this perk is to hide the broken status effect from the killer so they don't know you have it. That would add some value to it.
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Yes but also no other perk injures you at the start of the match
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No Mither is the bane of Plague and Legion funnily enough. Like, it messes with your expectations so hard.
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The only change that needs to be made is it activates on the first hit and does not show a broken status to the killer.
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I wouldn't say it's the 'bane' of their playstyle. Those two killers are designed to keep players injured and waste their time by forcing them to mend or drink from fountains.
While the Plague wont get many (if any) fountains from a No Mither player, they will still contaminate their friends, and the Legion still wastes the player's time with mending.
In thew end, you're going up against anti-heal killers with the inability to heal. You're not doing anything but exactly what they want you to do in the first place. It's like having an 'Always Oblivious' perk against a stealth killer. Just because it's redundant to a degree doesn't mean you're countering them. Ya know?
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Oh I wouldn't mind still being injured. The killer wouldn't need to see it with the perk on. Maybe that can be something else the perk could do in that it makes you not appear injured on the icon even though you are.
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No mither is interesting
Sometimes a killer will think of it as a easy tunnel but if you give them a long chase you made em lose the game
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i like no mither as it is and i even liked it pre buff because i think some memey/ fun perks are good
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No Mither is a perk I like to run occassionally, and it can be really fun to use. The fact that the killer can't slug you (and they KNOW that) can actually be of huge benefit to your team, although at a pretty big detriment to yourself.
Sometimes I throw myself at the killer while they're chasing a teammate who has been hooked more than me, and it puts them in a Catch 22, they either have to let me pick myself up, or lose the more valuable chase. It also makes you excellent bait if you're a good looper, as a lot of killers can't resist the easy looking hook. Is this more effective than regular protection hits? I don't know, but it sure is fun. Just be prepared to die for your team most games.
That said, I think it should give you a 100% Pain Sound reduction, and the ability to crawl while recovering. This would make it easier to slip away unnoticed when slugged and pick yourself up. Also, a big helping of bonus bloodpoints when you escape with the perk would be really nice.
I don't think the perk needs a full rework, a hard-mode option is cool to have and the perk is pretty iconic.
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@ReverseVelocity @Zachcjjj @GoshJosh @Sumnox
My esteemed comembers of the community and No Mither
What do you think of this incarnation of the perk:
~
Description: “You can shake off even the roughest punishment when you’re pushed.”
Begin the trial injured and Broken for 90/60/30 seconds.
While Broken, gain the ability to revive self from the Dying state and gain Endurance for 16 seconds.
Escaping and Surviving the trial grants all other survivors +100% Bloodpoints.
Once restored to full health, this perk activates:
Taking a protection hit while Healthy causes you to become Broken for 30 seconds.
Upon recovering from the Broken status, this perk deactivates.
Flavor-text: “’He lamped me good before I could do so much as stand. Didn’t let up neither. Just kept throwin’ himself at me ‘til I was on the ground. Didn’t expect me to get back up so fast, lost him some good teeth for the trouble.’ – David King”
~
Once you are healed, the next time you are Broken, you gain Endurance.
You basically get Borrowed Time+ If you take a protection hit.
The tradeoff is that you start injured and the killer knows what you're up to.
You give your allies a bunch of BP if you make it out alive, though.
By causing survivors to spawn into the match injured and unable to heal - and punishing them with prolonged injury and less pressure upon taking protection hits, this perk retains its ‘Challenge Mode’ doctrine and promotes extremely dangerous and foolhardy behavior to those who take it. Keeping in the spirit of David’s defensive and patently dangerous take on altruism allows this perk to generate high stock for survivors that are able to work around it. By granting Endurance in particular circumstances, killers will be encouraged to tunnel the No Mither user to remove the threat of the perk from the game - but will find them difficult to hold down when used in conjunction with certain killer interactions as well as synergies with other survivor perks. While there is potential to force powerful situations, this perk has the potential to backfire horribly, which also makes it less attractive for certain team types. Granting bonus bloodpoints to allies allows it not only to act as a consolidation ‘Sorry I spawned injured and possibly screwed everything up’, but it’s also a great incentive for good-willed players to bring the perk into the trial.
Thoughts?
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It doesn’t work, because base recovery takes 30.4 seconds - which you would already be recovered from the broken status, even if you somehow went immediately down at the start of the trial. You would actually want a longer broken status to gain the ability to pick yourself up from the dying state, which makes it counterintuitive to have a shorter broken duration for higher tiers.
The bonus BP wouldn’t work either, because there’s always the possibility that other survivors would die and/or escape before you - therefore not being calculated into their final scores. Unless they somehow programmed that.
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I do like the idea. the numbers could be adjusted, but I like that other people win if they help you make it, it's a good idea in a world of selfish randoms.
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Would 120/90/60 second initial and 60 second broken on protection hit make it better?
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I'm not going to spoil it for you, but CERTAIN builds on CERTAIN maps make No Mither very useful. (No Mither, Soul Guard, Boil Over, Flip-Flop.) It works very well on one particular map and before anyone says it, no, I'm not talking about the RPD. I've run the build multiple times and yes, it works. You need to find the perk combo that works for you. Not anyone perk is completely useless with the right build.
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I run it only when I bring an offering for a specific map (not the RPD.) There's another map that with the right build, will allow you to wiggle out of Iron Grasp if given enough time. I'm not going to mention which map because I'm noticing a lot of entitlement on the boards from Killers that always expect a 4k and when even one Survivor escapes, "OMG it needs to be nerfed!"
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Well, maybe I wasn’t clear. If your only option to Unbreakable is while broken, you probably would want it to last even longer - and probably stay permanent like it is now. That’s a key feature of the perk right now. So reducing the broken timer for leveling up the perk would be kind of bad. There shouldn’t be an incentive to stay broken, in my opinion. It’s a powerful and bad status effect to have as a survivor.
I’m also not sure if you’re saying the endurance would last 16 seconds from taking a protection hit? If so, that’s kind of a bad trade off to be broken for a long time.
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I'm uncertain what reality would have a killer not pick you up instantly upon downing you if they see you with No Mither.
Upon that, if you're running into a no-hook corner in every chase, you're doing more to waste your own time than the Killer's.
Just a guess, but you're probably talking about Erie of Crows, because that map is horrendous in every which way.
The idea with the change would be to incentivize players to heal up to activate their ability to become broken on a protection hit, which would grant them Endurance for 16 seconds.
The synergy with other perks as well would make it a powerful addition to certain builds. Healing an ally with For The People and gaining Endurance, for example - or having Deliverance grant Endurance for a risky self-unhook. Renewal + No Mither would give you an extended BT when Unhooked.
But you'd have to heal up to find use. It's very difficult to use well - but it at least has function.
It is not an incentive to stay broken but is, rather, a very strong incentive to heal up once the timer expires.
It also is a flat buff against certain killers and perks.
Plague cannot full-infect you in chase and then swing for a hit. Weighty Rattle on Twins will allow you to tank a hit within 16 seconds of getting pounced on with Victor. Legion Pin Legion can't 5th hit you if they tried.
Hilariously, if someone used For The People on you after getting hit by a Rusted Chains Cannibal - you get away scot free.
By allowing players to heal up at certain times and granting them Endurance in particular circumstances, it can become a game changer.
Especially in end-game trades. Taking a protection hit at the hook can very easily place the killer in a lose-lose situation if you bring BT.
By allowing players to - in certain circumstances - ace the killer with this perk given the tradeoff of spawning injured and having to heal in very specific circumstances, it can be both powerful as well as challenging to employ.
No Mither, in absolutely no reasonable way, is a slug perk.
If there was a little 'Bill' icon beside the portrait of every single Survivor with Unbreakable equipped, no self-respecting killer would ever let you hang around on the ground. They're going to pick you up.
No Mither, is not designed to give a bonus to slugs. It is designed to force the killer to hook and kill the person who took the perk. The idea of the perk is - you always go down in 1 hit and you don't get any second chances. It's a challenge, not a bonus.
So long as you are broken, you will be able to recover - true.
But the only way to find value out of this is to place ambiguity onto the perk from the Killer's perspective.
If the perk made a player ALWAYS 100% able to pick themselves up, they won't be slugged in the least, because a killer will understand and see as much.
If the Broken status effect is timed, however, a Killer may take the risk and gamble that the 30 seconds or so it takes to pick yourself up may wait out the timer. By placing a timer on the perk that killers cannot see, there will be many more interactions where the killer may underestimate how much time remains on the broken effect and slug a survivor only to see them revitalize to the injured state.
Without the ambiguity of a timer, there will be virtually no instances where a killer is going to leave you on the ground.
If the timer is too short, killers may leave you on the ground often - but you wont be able to revive.
If the timer is too long, you will reliably be able to revive - but killers aren't going to let you do it.
There has to be a happy middle ground where killers will often feel misplaced confidence or take their reasonable chances while survivors that bring the perk will find certain instances where they can find Unbreakable value from the perk.
However, the design to allow players to self-revive perpetually is not at all a bonus of the perk, it is part of its 'Hard mode' detriment. Replicating the perpetual Broken and perpetual self-revive makes the perk markedly worse for players - especially when compared to others.
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I'm not a fan.
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Nope not that map either. It's Ormond. It's not 100% guaranteed but it works at least 75% of the time. I don't run the build to be a jerk either. Matchmaking has been absolutely terrible for the past few months and I'm usually on my own unless I'm playing in Co-op. Dying on first hook because people are too busy hiding in corners gets old after awhile... and two days ago I was slugged and left to die on another map. Two Survivors decided to work with the Killer and completely ignored me (I 100% reported them all.)
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I actually love no mither. It makes me more on edge, and helps me learn to loop better or else.
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Sounds like low MMR hell. I've been there too, man
Hmmm... Ormond. I guess I could see that work in very particular situations!
Do you go to corners or the upstairs of the main building to maximize value?
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my idea was wacky when i was thinking of buffs, but what if you can still interact with stuff while in the dying state? like at half speed but you get the idea
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Change it to permanent Exposed. You always go down in one hit, but it’s not obvious that you have it at first and you can still be healed to prevent group wide penalties from Perks that activate while injured.
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I had the idea of making No Mither a perk that keeps you permanently Broken but allows you to recover your Exhaustion while running, maybe even in a slower rate than usual if that idea is too busted.
That way the perk is a high risk high reward type of perk that rewards you for looping the Killer for extended periods of time by allowing you to use your Exhaustion perk more than once in a chase, with the drawback that you can’t take a hit at all.
The killer is also aware that you have this effect and can choose to not chase you if they see you’re a really good looper.
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That’s what Vigil should do honestly though. A faster exhaustion recovery rate does little, if it doesn’t work while running. It currently only effects Sprint Burst and Head On users due to this limitation. And it’s effectively dead in the water against Mindbreaker too.
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Yes. If you do it, I would run No Mither, Soul Guard, Flip-Flop, and Boil Over. There are two rooms on the second floor. Usually, I'll find whichever room has the open window and I'll fall right near it. There are other things to consider as well (does the Killer have Iron Grasp, which door is open to which ledge, is basement in main, etc.) The reason I say to run it with Soul Guard is because sometimes some Killers will just stand over your body (yes, it's happened to me on this map) and my teammates really did their best to cover me during the collapse. I suppose it could work on the RPD as well, but hook spawns have been really weird on that map lately.
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I know we're talking about the No Mither-only tome, but No Mither is actually pretty viable if you build around it properly. I went on something like a 10 game escape streak with No Mither the other day, against mid-to-decent killers.
I used Dead Hard (obviously), Resilience, and Prove Thyself. You can alternatively drop Prove Thyself for Spine Chill to get the bonus vault speed and improved stealth. I could also see Fixated and Iron Will being very strong with No Mither as well.
Not having any pools of blood is kind of a big deal, so is being permanently broken. Instead of wasting 16 seconds of two survivor's time healing (which could be translated into 32 seconds of time on gens with Prove Thyself), you skip it and go straight to doing gens. You also always have the benefits of Resilience at all times, meaning gens take 8 fewer seconds and healing others takes 1.5 fewer seconds.
Not to mention the killer can't risk slugging you, robbing them of potential snowball pressure.
It's not a strong perk for chase-oriented survivors, but it's very strong for stealthy and tactical survivors.
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how bout if u dont start injured but yopu cant be healed and the broken status doesnt show so nobody knows you have the perk. your teammates will figure it out when they try to heal you but the healing prompt doesnt show up. to make it fair, when the survivor starts they have 1-2% hinder until injured.
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Can Guarantee you 100% that there is no reality or alternate reality where No Mither becomes a viable perk.
It is literally designed to be the opposite of a viable perk.
It is quantifiably a bad perk, by the designers own admission - and by the core concepts of the game's design. It, at no point, has any intrinsic value to add to any match that cannot be extracted through more beneficial means.
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I run No Mither in a lot of my games as survivor, and the end result is usually that either I escape, or I secure a 3 man escape for the rest of my team. The absolutely massive amount of time efficiency you get by never needing to get healed and always having Resilience active means gens will fly. Not being able to be slugged and essentially forcing the killer to pick you up robs the killer of the ability to snowball pressure via slugging.
I'm the kind of guy that will take Magic: The Gathering cards that are considered unplayable or game throws and turn them into combo pieces that can instantly win a game. No Mither by itself is a perk that makes you weaker, but it's quite powerful when combo'd with other perks that play into No Mither's strengths.
Run a couple games with one of the builds I suggested and see how things go.
Gen Rushing: Dead Hard, No Mither, Prove Thyself, Resilience
Gen Rush 2: Built to Last, No Mither, Resilience, Streetwise (and a Commodious with Wire Spool and Scraps)
Looping: Dead Hard, No Mither, Spine Chill, Resilience
Stealth: No Mither, Iron Will, Fixated, Resilience
No Mither + Resilience are your key components. If you are running No Mither, you'll want to run Resilience. Dead Hard pretty much makes the downside of No Mither non-existent, but you can play higher risk by dropping it and running something else. Your third perk can be whatever you want. Ultra-safe would be DS + DH, highest risk/reward would be Built to Last + Streetwise. Fixated is amazing with No Mither since you don't leave pools of blood, so you can always walk away from a loop to confuse a killer without making it obvious that you did so.
Don't build for extra anti-slugging perks, since the killer is going to insta-pick up every time. You could get away with sabo oriented perks like Breakdown or Boil Over, or an Alex Toolbox and prep an area in advance so you can pick yourself up after a drop or force a wiggle... but I don't recommended it since sabo is pretty dodgy and questionable in the first place.
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You can accomplish this and much more without No Mither.
Replacing No Mither with Built To Last paired with a toolkit is literally more efficient than the No Mither Resilience combination and does not require you to play on a challenge mode.
I highly doubt the validity of your claims to success, because if you escaped most matches, you'd quickly elevate to a level of play where your No Mither build would be obliterated.
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I'll record maybe something like 25 No Mither games and then get back to you
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Even in any case of success, which can be disputed - it does not change the fact that the perk has no merit to it other than to challenge players. There is no reason to take this perk over other choices that could just as easily create benefits for you and your team.
It's akin to saying you could win an Olympic sprint with your legs tied together. Doubtful, but even if you could - it would be a lot easier if you preformed the sprint untied. While you may be able to make claims about gait and bounding speeds - it doesn't change the fact that you would perform just as good if not better if you elected to go about your gameplay another way.
It's all good to play the game how you want, the important thing is to have fun!
But having fun isn't always optimal, the fun perks are not always viable.
To suggest that No Mither in any way benefits you or your team to any degree more than another perk or item choice is hubris.
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i don't undertsand ppole who don't want this perk changed because they want it is a "hard mode" perk. if you want a hard mode then just...don't heal???
I don't mind the permanant injured effect from the beggining of the match, but there needs to be an actual reward for it, currently, it's an all risk, no reward perk. its sad excuse of a power is extremely easy and simple to counter (much like every other non-meta survivor perk). The power exchange for being permamntly injured needs to be escpecially strong, like OG DS and MoM levels of strong
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