Regarding The Pig's Five-Box update
Comments
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This is better than before, though I still think a 25%/50%/75%/100% chance across the board would be better (and yea, with the 5th box so that you can't "AFK Pig" the match.)
EDIT: Actually now that I have read over it a few times, I very much like this. Definitely better than my idea!
Post edited by AbsolutGrndZer0 on1 -
they think we're too stupid to understand the mechanics and that will over complicate the game and make people quit.
thats why they don't tell us until people bring out the pitchforks
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No; the change made it so that if there are two boxes left, and the survivor hears a terror radius (or if their SWF announces the killer’s location via voice comms), then the survivor can just go for the other box, which means the Pig is less likely to catch people near boxes. Some of my chases are just finding people on boxes, or running near boxes, even when I’m not “facecamping” the boxes. Or if there is a box near a 3-gen, then I’ll be aware of it even if I’m patrolling all 3 generators, and similarly the survivor is more likely to just avoid that box even if I’m not facecamping it.
And I think it would be great if the devs would release the head pop stats from before the addon pass to after the addon pass, because with exception to people face camping with old Amanda’s letter and new video tape, I’d argue the head pop rate went noticeably down because of the addon pass.
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That still wastes Survivors' time because they are spending extra time running to another box, which is a good thing. And if the Pig catches them in the act, then it doesn't matter because that Survivor is likely done anyways.
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It might be fine for you, but I’m done with Pig, even those she was my main for a while. I’m not suffering through SBMM with one of the worst chase powers ever, just so I can slow people down, especially when it doesn’t feel like the slowdown makes up for the longer chases she has to endure because her chase power is such garbage.
Pig’s box mechanic right now is just a worse Cenobite box mechanic. They both involve people running around because of boxes, and even if Cenobite might have a bit less average slowdown time, his chase power is way better than Pig’s.
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I'm not saying Pig doesn't need more buffs. I'm saying that THIS change here is a buff for Pig.
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Sounds like a good change then.
I'm eager to test that on live.
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It’s a buff for you, but a nerf for me. I played Pig for the thematic traps that were supposed to have the threat of lethality, but the traps no longer feel threatening.
She’s now like Ringu, where there’s technically a small chance an instant kill might happen, but it’s so rare and avoidable that we shouldn’t bother pretending it will happen often enough to be meaningful.
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"It’s a buff for you, but a nerf for me."
That's not how buffs and nerfs work. It's not a stand-in for whether you like it or not. You can say you don't like it (even if your logic doesn't actually work out in your context), but that doesn't change whether that makes the character stronger or weaker.
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I mean, sure, but any situation where the survivor is moving away from a box they wanted to search while not in a chase is a win for the Pig. Clock's ticking, and if they've already searched 3 boxes while their trap was active, they don't have much time for the detour. If you can find scratch marks or just patrol the other boxes, they're done for. A trapped survivor can't do anything when the Pig is looking for them. All this prevents you from doing is sitting in front of the box and getting a kill for it.
You're ignoring everything people are saying about how you get headpops with Pig to complain that they don't just happen anymore. Which, yes, her changes in the past half-year have been moving away from passive lethality. But this is a buff to her active lethality. I still think both her stealth and her ambush need work, but this change was an improvement that patched her most glaring flaw and I'm glad for it.
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There’s no way of telling if it’s an actual buff to her kill rate without being given kill rate stats. Survivors might average more time on boxes, but with less head pops, and less interactivity with Pig, it’s not possible to know how that would ultimately affect her kill rates.
I’m personally arguing that it feels like a nerf to her kill rate as well, because of the less head pops, and less interactivity with Pig, and because it’s easier for voice comm SWFs to counter her. But I don’t know if it’s an actual nerf since I don’t have kill rate stats.
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You can easily determine whether it's a buff or a nerf by reading what's changed.
The Pig was NEVER good at scoring kills with RBTs by design. So the fact that the stronger part of her kit (the stall) was made stronger is a buff. I can't even say that the killing was made weaker because having more chances to search four boxes means having more chances for the RBT to kill (since VERY few competent Survivors will die to a Trap in less than four searches).
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I mean, if you REALLY want a survivor headpop that badly, just follow a survivor to a box and grab them off if they're trying to search, then go away from the box while carrying them, and keep doing that until boom
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in the meantime a buff for his ambush attack wouldn't be so bad (tbh it has no purpose if you think about it: when survivors are working on generators you have the possibility to grab them IF YOU DON'T ATTACK with the ambush, plus the pig won't make much noise with a normal attack, while if you use the ambush...)
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A few of her add-ons are way better now, too
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Ambush has one use - scoring hits around short pallet loops, and sometimes complex jungle gyms. Low height during crouch and lack of red stain makes it uncertain what direction the Pig is coming from, and that'll land some hits, especially if you park yourself at the pallet. But as an actual ambush tool, it's worthless because it telegraphs itself, and you're better off just uncrouching and stabbing.
I'd be happy if they buffed her crouching speed to 105% and either increased the dash length/speed or changed it so the audio cue doesn't play until the meter is 50% charged. (I would miss being able to oink at people, though.)
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Are you referring to Sketch/Annotated Plan, or am I missing something?
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but head pops were never a common thing it was almost impossible for you to get an rbt kill without you using the right addons and getting a lucky map with a lucky rng. it was always considered a slowdown mecanic and from what i understand from this is that if the number of searches is increased that should also increase the potential of a head pop with the right addons but you won't be able to force it by blocking a certain box that you know the survivor needs anymore.
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Well, finally, otherwise I’m somehow damned on the Pig, everyone always found the key to the traps in the box in which they hang, or in the first box, I still think that something is written on my computer, because why I’m not lucky on the trapper and the pig, always in any game everyone found the keys from the first box, they got out of the ladder on the first try, finally I will play the pig honestly
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Dunno their names offhand, but the crouch aura (guaranteed searches), the trap removal aura, and extended search time perks are all better now, imo.
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"At the start of a match, The Pig begins with three "searches" per trap, or 12 searches in a normal game. Each time she places a trap, a number of the remaining searches is chosen, from one to four. This is how many searches it will take the Survivor to remove the trap."
So then the +1 trap addons would increase the total amount of searches, correct? That would be fairly nasty on 5/6 trap Pig, seeing as if anyone gets a single search, you still have a full set of traps that are guaranteed 3/4 searches.
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Yeah, so with 5 traps there would be 15 searches, and with 6 traps 18 searches.
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if you have six RBTs, you could theoretically get two RBTs that only need one Box to remove, but then that would mean that the other four for sure need four searches to get the RBT off (6*3 = 18; 1+1+4+4+4+4 = 18).
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Did anyone test this with friends to verify it is working as intended?
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Her slowdown before the addon pass was two +1 box addons, one +1 trap addon, and two +search time addons. The addon pass completely removed the two +1 box addons, and downgraded them to two +1 trap addons, which is a nerf because the +box addons could give additional pressure starting on the first trap, but the +trap addons don’t give additional pressure until the 5th trap is set. They also completely removed the yellow rarity +trap addon, which is a nerf to her slowdown. They also nerfed the slowdown time on one of the +search time addons.
And to be honest, even if this new change is making her slowdown more consistent, it’s still not enough to make up for the amount of slowdown nerfs they gave her during the addon pass. I’d rather the trap timer got an addition 2 minutes slapped onto it, and all the slowdown nerfs reverted, so that she could have consistent slowdown without people worrying about “unfair head pops”. Her slowdown is still much worse than it was before the addon pass, even with the new change.
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The only difference between the OG Sketch/Annotated Plan and the current addition of box #5 is that the Survivor won't have to ever hit a fifth box. While that does suck to lose, the trade-off is that you are getting the benefits of the increased slowdown as BASE KIT rather than through a purple add-on. So we get to add whatever two add-ons we want on top of this FREE additional slowdown.
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What is fun in getting cheap RNG-Kills? It was not you who killed them, it was RNG. You got lucky, they got unlucky. Not really rewarding IMO.
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And the nerfed slowdown addons in addition to the FREE base kit change, are still worse than what her slowdown could do before the addon pass.
The free base kit change isn’t even arguably that much more slowdown. It’s increased search time, but decreased travel time. It’s also decreased danger time, because sometimes a survivor knows Pig is in the area (even if Pig isn’t facecamping a box), and has to sneak to the box without being seen, and risks getting stuck in a chase if found, and if they are chased away from the box, that’s even more slowdown in the form of more travel time. Now the survivor knows that if Pig is in the area, they can often just run to a different box, which isn’t even guaranteed to be more travel time since they might be able to risk-free run to it instead of sneaking around Pig to the box that’s near her.
It’s also decreased danger time because having a 5th box without a 5th key means it’s less likely for Pig to randomly find someone near a box, and as mentioned above, danger time can lead to additional slowdown time if Pig finds a survivor when the survivors are patrolling the map for boxes, so decreased danger time is also a decreased potential slowdown time .
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"And the nerfed slowdown addons in addition to the FREE base kit change, are still worse than what her slowdown could do before the addon pass."
No, not really. Before, she had two box add-ons and one extra trap add-on. Now, she has two extra trap add-ons and an extra box base kit (with the caveat that a Survivor will never take it off in five searches).
"The free base kit change isn’t even arguably that much more slowdown. It’s increased search time, but decreased travel time."
With an average of three searches per trap, it actually is a meaningful boost to the slowdown, even with the shorter travel distance.
Also, if the Survivor is running away to the far boxes to avoid the Pig, then they are wasting the free travel distance since they're no longer taking the shortest distance between boxes and further extending the stalling (plus further risking the chance of dying to the trap if the timer is already ticking).
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I mean, historically Pig has had a VERY high kill rate despite complaints that she felt weak, so I don't really think that's what should be used as the end-all be-all metric for how these changes have affected her unless she suddenly plummets to like, 15th or lower or something.
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So pig traps are just time waster no more trying to go for trap kills, next they gonna nerf crouch so pig can’t follow a trap survivor and call it a overall buff
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Think this is an unfortunate case of you both playing 'different games.'
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You can try for trap kills, it's just you have to be more active in it. You can't just throw a map offering and run specific addons and practically guarantee yourself a free kill anymore.
There's a 97% chance that at least 1 survivor has to check 4 boxes and a 58% chance that it will be 2 survivors. (basekit, no addons). Pressure survivors off of boxes and delay their search attempts and you can secure yourself a trap kill.
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I mean, I love getting Trap kills, but I don't even agree with the notion that Trap kills will be all but impossible now. Survivors will have to search four boxes more often now (the ONLY times where zero Traps will be removed in four searches are when every single Trap ends up needing to be removed in exactly three searches), and I am not convinced that the time saved in shorter distances will be the difference maker a meaningful percent of the time (especially not when you can use both Timer and Crate along with the buffed stall). I for one will try to make the Trap kills happen with these changes.
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But overall it is a buff. Survivors will consistently have to search more boxes.
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You know, I just really don’t care anymore. I played her because she had a unique mechanic where she sometimes got head pops, and that got nerfed into the ground.
I’ve wrote enough reasons to why I don’t want to play her anymore, and if you don’t like any of my reasons, then feel free to keep playing her.
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It really didn't get meaningfully nerfed unless you were all in on the AFK strategy.
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As often as I vehemently disagree with what you post, as a heavy Pig player myself, I'm happy to say you are 100% correct here.
What kills Pig, especially against higher-level players, is having RNG destroy your slowdown when everyone is getting their traps off right away. ANYTHING that makes that search time increase -- in this case, removing some of that RNG -- is an overall win for a Pig, who can use that extra slowdown to bring gen progress potentially to a crawl in the mid-game, which benefits her immensely.
For those players who play only for the trap kill, I get head-pops here and there anyway, and that's without running TT/COG or without tunneling someone with an active trap (not that, under certain circumstances, I've haven't done either -- but those situations are situational and very rare). I run Plaything on Pig, and I've lost count of the number of times I've run across an Oblivious survivor headed to/on a Jigsaw box while chasing someone else and I've harrassed them away from their search. A lot of those survivors have wasted time heading to a completely different box, and that's definitelty resulted in a head-pop for me before. And I still have gotten the occasional unlucky survivor who wasted time healing with an active trap or who jumped on a gen immediately who then found themselves unlucky with their searches and died trying to get to their box, esecially on an unfavorable map (RPD, Midwich, even a survivor-friendly, but big map like Red Forest where there's so much ground to cover to get from box to box).
The head-pop is still viable, and depending how you play, maybe more so with this change. As other people have pointed out, knowing how and when to push people off of Jigsaw boxes is a skill worth learning. Pig still has her problems with elements of her base kit, but this change -- which was an actually well-thought out change to combat the AFK Pig (and I had doubts whether the devs would get a solution right for this one) -- is NOT a nerf to her.
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Exactly
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Nerf or buff? No point arguing over that! The question we should all be asking is: Will she ever get her own chase music?
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Hello Zepp remix when?
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You know
It's completely possible we could get a Saw Part 2 chapter, RE's opened the door for it and BHVRs relationship with the IP owners of Saw seems pretty solid considering they let us have a Saw Tome (They even got Tobin Bell for the trailer lol)
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Ok thats good, but it should of been announced earlier, not hidden because "it was too complex".
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please remember the pig changes aren't live yet - it was tested in the recent PTB.
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Yes I understand, but it should've been announced with the PTB then, not a week later due to "community response" (backlash) and because we supposedly aren't smart enough to understand or something.
I know its not your decision, or any one persons decision for that matter, but hiding information on gameplay changes is going to leave a bad taste in peoples mouth.
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Also makes it hard to know if it's working properly...ie had people known, swf going against her could keep track of box attempts, people could also test box numbers with various addons in kyf, etc.
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Doesn't Pig have Add-Ons that allow her to carry more than 4 Trapps? How will this work then? Is it just gonna add 3 extra searches to the standard 12 searches?
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No? Like they nerfed cheesy way to get kills and improved normal playstyle for Pig, it is an improvement. Got rid of rng and you will have way more consistant slowdown than before.
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What?! In what way is an average search buff from 2.5 to 3 negatively affecting the chance of a headpop? And just btw, the party hats never were meant to be free kills in the first place. No.1 effect is game slowdown. If you want somehow reliable kills with it, you still can run Tampered Timers + the duration addon combo. But having a killer that gets free kills for the cost of a 4 second pickup animation instead of a 2 second animation would be silly.
Yeah, so we have one single and rare occurrence that only in full SWF will be giving a good info to the team. Should I agree to revert an overall good rework to get back to a worse state? And what about the case that the last pick is a 4? Like the whole team is running scared like "don't touch the last gen or Im dead", right? I think this is still kinda balanced, right?
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@Coffeecrashing How come you talk about the 5th box basekit change as a nerf and now refer to the old +box addons as a benefit? As stated in OP, there was a maximum of 16 searches, so even with 6 boxes you don't need to search six times on a single trap, 4 is maximum.
Also: "It’s increased search time, but decreased travel time." is just half of the cake. If survivors are forced to search an additional box, they are forced to travel to that box as well. You can't say "survivors now just travel 80% of the map max" and ignore the fact that before they sometimes, or too often, only had to travel 25% of the map.
If you don't want to play her anymore without even testing her just because of your assumptions, which have been argued against, then you give up pretty fast. Not sure why you don't take the other examples into account and rethinking if this is really a nerf and just throw away your main. But hey, your choice. We tried, I guess
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