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Why do killers hate bt, ub, and ds so much
Every time I see a post about a surv complaining about a killer perk like noed, I always see killers bring up the same four perks as a counter response. Ds, bt, unbreakable, and dh. Now I definitely see how dead hard is a fair comparison or at least understand their pov because it does deny fair hits most of the time and overall I can see why they argue that if noed is unfair so is dh.
I, however, cannot get how bt, ds, and ub are in the same realm??? They’re always brought up when killers discuss unfair perks as counter points but I genuinely don’t understand how these are unfair. They always call them second chancey and a back up for bad plays, but the perks are made to counter otherwise highly difficult situations to escape from.
They’re in the game to make a certain game play style more fair for the other side bc other wise being tunneled and camped would have no legitimate counters, and this is even more true for solo que. It would be nearly impossible to get saves and escapes semi regularly if they weren’t in the game.
And all of these perks can be played around as long as your play style isn’t hard tunnelling and camping. And even then a good bit of the time they don’t help much depending on the killer. Ds? Only used once with a short timer and if you go for the unhooker you don’t face any consequence. Same for bt. Go for the unhooker and you’re fine? Also, on highly mobile killers these counter perks do not do very much to help and only become majorly viable in endgame. Plenty of blights and spirits have still mowed me down a few seconds after a ds stun before I could get to a gate, and fast killers like that can tank a bt hit and down you right after with little recovery time. On slower killers who can’t shoot projectiles I can understand the annoyance at end game more, but it still isn’t very difficult to avoid those perks if you don’t aggressively tunnel and camp. I’m not saying those strats aren’t fair or are toxic, but I am saying they only should be allowed because counter play exists against those strats within these perks.
Same for unbreakable. It doesn’t stop you from slugging, it only stops you from slugging for an immense amount of time before you face consequence. What reason would one have to slug for approx 25+ seconds when objective is to get hook sacrifices? That’s plenty of time to chase someone away in case of a pallet or flashlight save. It stops killers from bleeding out lobbies or preventing the other side from having no counter play for killers refusing to hook and denying saves.
If all of these perks were gone, what would you recommend to do to escape a face camping/hard tunnel situation? Or even have a CHANCE to escape? Letting the others gen rush while someone takes the L and dies because there’s no chance of a save isn’t fair at all.
Yes it’s true they can be abused, but a lot of perks can be abused. Star struck on nurse with infectious can easily give a good player a three man down because of her speed if she felt like it. Make your choice on a hag makes camping so rewardable especially with the add on that allows her to chose where to teleport without having to have traps triggered. Depending on the player and the build and the map many perks can be abused.
My point is these perks are always called unfair for killers during any discourse about broken or cheap perks when they have counter play and, depending on the killer, hardly work.
I genuinely don’t understand why these are always brought up as stupid and unfair and on par with cheap perks like noed and dead hard. They aren’t there to reward mess ups and bad plays. There are hook states in the game for a reason, survivors aren’t expected to never get hooked. So why should getting downed once automatically mean they shouldn’t have a way to avoid getting targeted immediately after a save? Why shouldn’t teammates have a way to ensure someone getting saved can last at least 10 seconds afterward?
I hear stories about bt saves with ds in the killers face to be annoying and all of that, but I rarely see this in my games? Survivors usually don’t do that unless the killer is actively camping, because our whole objective is to survive and willingly getting those saves just risks dying.
Plus you don’t get any points for unsafe rescues? There’s no real motive to do this besides being toxic, but that doesn’t tend to end well on our part anyway and because of that I don’t see any of that “oh well they unhooked in my face before I could even leave the area so I downed them” nonsense. I’m sure it happens and plenty of lower rank players have probably done it out of lack of experience, but in my mmr it doesn’t happen commonly at all.
The only answer I could think of is that the people who hate these perks are people who solely play with a camp and tunnel style. But I don’t wanna assume all killers who say that only do so bc of that play style, because it seems unlikely and that’s a narrow minded view to have. Surely there’s more reasons. So if any killers who don’t tend to play like that have an answer for why they hate these perks anyway I’d be happy to try and understand. Sincerely.
Comments
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I don't think killers hate BT. I think there are certain scenarios where it can feel a little unfair against coordinated players, but.. not something worth complaining about. UB people dislike because killer is about applying pressure in different ways, and slugging someone creates pressure, but it also doesn't create a health state loss, which makes it actually beneficial for both sides. Um, UB isn't as meta as it used to be, even if it is still strong, especially after the DS nerf it seen less play. And again, also less meta when slugging as a whole became.. harder due to recovery time increases and max recovery buffs. Still, not really a perk killers complain much about. And DS? Again, not really something people complain about much.
I know you might see a lot of posts whining about those perks but they're not really what I'd say are problem perks, or perks that are complained about by anyone but bad killers. Again, there are arguments you can make in some scenarios for them all, but the reality is that perks like DH/COH, have becoming so much more overwhelmingly frustrating that that's.. kind of what you'll see good players complain about.
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DS unbreakable is still an invincible combo to where no matter what you do, you just waste time by either waiting out ds, eating it, leaving the person to unbreakable. Bt is relatively fair until i think it a basement party and everyone has bt so they can just have 1 person go down and basically guarantee 2 people out of the basement.
Other than that noed is the most counterable perk in the game as it can be removed by the 50% mark of the second gen assuming ONLY one person is on gens. By the end of first chase assuming the survivor knows how to loop 2 gens should be completed.
DS unbreakable as which doesn't have a counter as its just waste time for their mistake of running back into you and if you leave them they just pick themselves up.
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the short answer for you: try to keep playing killer most of the times for at least 3/4 months... you'll see instantly why killers DESPISE those perks (i'm also not a fan of those perks since they reward you for failing)
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DS and BT are fine, UB, on it's own, is fine but when it's used in conjunction with other second chance Perks, it gets really unfair
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They hate the perks because it makes it harder for them to tunnel someone.
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Killers hate UB - But they love the fact that they can slug for unlimited amounts of time with 0 downside.
Killers hate DS- But they love the ability to tunnel, because where they felt it was unfair that they got DS'd they don't see that tunneling someone without DS is ALSO unfair.
Killers hate BT- But they love how easy of a strat it is to come back to the hook, or pretend to leave the hook only to come back, or flat out camp. None of them complain about how easy it is for them to do that.
You know why they don't like those perks? Because it makes their access to those strats much harder to pull off, where survivors can at least have a chance and it doesn't make it easier for them to simply tunnel or camp someone out.
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DS literally gives you a free escape if you use it end game. That is objectively as unfair as it gets. I have no idea why this is not more commonly understood. There is counterplay, fortunately, which is to tunnel.
They always use the excuse that it counters tunneling when in reality, it creates an incentive to tunnel. You do NOT want to eat it late game or you immediately lose whatever progress you had on the survivor unless they were already 2 hook. But that loses you late game pressure regardless. So I wouldn't call it ideal, either.
Now, I am NOT saying it needs nerfed, or that I hate it, or whatever other straw man survivors come up with. It is just a fact that the perk is quite broken. No, it doesn't matter that they nerfed it years ago. What matters is what it still enables, which nothing else does. No, not even Dead Hard.
As for the other ones? Whatever. They are potent, but they shut down undesirable killer strategies and make for a healthier experience. No idea why anyone would bring them up as unfair. Especially when they have genuine counterplay to the point where you will never see them if you play well.
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Can't say i really hate on many of the survs perks.
Dh has it ups and downs at my killer level i see many idiots using it and running into crates and getting little value from it. The funniest use ive seen of it is dash to a window then get the hatchet in the back after vaulting.
BT is pretty much mandatory, and i think it should be basekit for survs it sucks in solo to be unhooked then get insta downed and farmed with zero control.
UB is a 50/50 perk if you're not slugged it has no value, i don't slug if i don't have a choice if there are no hooks near ill slug you, and if you the last man you'll be camped so you wont get much value from it.
DS is a interesting perk i think it should be basekit as well, but with conditions, and a limited time frame.
But these perks are mandatory to a degree because of the state of the game, My opinion is that gen repair is to fast and regression to slow, which leads killers to need to tunnel survs out rather than kicking gens, so if killers need to tunnel/camp then survs need 2nd chances to counter that.
Until some of the base game is changed messing with the perks won't no much other making certain perks o.p/garbage which will change perk usage but not the idea behind the meta.
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I don’t think killers hate BT, it’s not very hard to counter, all you have to do is wait for 12s. It’s fair and I don’t mind if it becomes basekit.
DS on the other hand can stun you even if you had time to kick a gen and down + hook another survivor. I feel like it should deactivate if the killer hook someone else because you are obviously not tunneled.
UB is cheap, plain and simple. Imagine if a killer was able to revert a completed gen to 0% progress. That’s what UB feels like.
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I don't like people that are using BT to bodyblock me. I'm fine with ds, but I really hate unbreakable.
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I don't hate those perks per se - I just hate that they work in two different ways.
While in SoloQ I agree that they're perfect anti tunnel perks, and used / needed for that - in SWFs they're mostly used to protect the unhooker which can lead to 5 / 6 health states to go through if you commit to that..
1) Unhooked person uses his BT to take a hit for the unhooker
2) Since he's not going anywhere he's / she's now trying to block your way and gives you a perfect timed DH
3) Still there cause he's got DS so he / she can afford a 3rd hit
Now's the choice to either pick up and eat the 5 seconds stun or risk the UB and go for the unhooker who's still close - which, of course would take three hits again, two if you're lucky.
Whatever you decide to do, you're still called either a tunneler or slugger.. Sometimes even camper, lol
Point 1 is usually the part where I drop the chase and look for the remaining two.. Rather lose that match than going through that odyssey
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IMP, killers hate these perks because they still function even if survivors don't bring them at all.
As a killer, you always have to assume survivors have DH, DS, BT. So we see that familiar and kind of stupid dramas in every match: killers can easily hit the survivor but have to wait for the DH, whether the survivor have it or not; killers can easily hit the injured survivor just got off the hook but they choose not to, because of the BT, whether the survivor have it or not; killers can easily pick up the dying survivor just got off the hook but they choose not to because of the DS, whether the survivor have it or not, and sometimes the survivor rush into a locker to make killers believe he or she has DS, even it's just a bluff.
As for UB, I don't really hate it, I think the situation is not the same with DH, DS and BT.
Maybe some players like the bluffing as some kind of mind game. But I think it's very unhealthy for this game. It already has lots of mind game elements, but all of them are not bluffing.
DH, DS and BT are mechanism-breakers, they make the process not the way it should be, and force killers to give up so many chances to get advantage. It's not fun at all, it is stupid.
In my view, I think these perks should be "visually recognizable," for example, if survivors A has BT, and he or she unhooks survivor B, killers should have seen some kind of highlight-aura on B, so no one can bluff, and it still functions well as a anti-tunneling perk. Most importantly, if A has no BT and unhook B in front of killers, they should pay.
Last, I really exciting for the upcoming 40s perks rebuild patch, I think the devs are well aware of these problems, and I hope they can really fix them.
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Killer can tunnel you even someone else hooked.
Bubba is camping you. Your solo teammate saved you without BT, you both down. Bubba hooked your teammate first. Now you tunnelled but you lost your DS. Fair? Nah.
DS is fine.
And for your case: if they kept DS for stun you, this mean they did not do anything useful. This is good value, they did not progress game and wasted strong perk for no reason. Now i can tunnel them out.
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UB can be annoying in only 2 scenarios - when it's used with DS to make survivor just invincible and when you take a gamble slugging and exactly that one time they have it even tho you usually don't slug.
DS is not annoying on it's own - it's annoying when someone tries to insult u with it when they go in the locker.
DH is finally getting recognized as an issue - even if it lost I-frames it would be best perk in the game, it should be even more complained about.
BT is fine overall as well, but it's feels so unfair when it gets combined with every other 2nd chance. 12 seconds are insane on their own, and yet you also get to use DS and teammate bodyblocks which don't matter due to how strong healing currently is.
DS BT UB DH combo is the purest cancer possible - making survivor invincible for half a match, and that's while there are 4 survivors that can bring it instead of 1. If those perks were used separately in combo with 3-non meta perks you wouldn't see anyone complain. But since there is no variety and their synergy is devastating everyone can't help but complain.
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Holy s*** my comment disappeared after edit so I have to rewrite it again.
IMP, killers hate DH, DS, BT because they still function even if survivors don't bring them at all.
BTW I don't really hate UB, because I don't think the situations to use it are the same with the rest.
I prefer to call these 3 "bluffing perks" instead of "second-chance perks."
We see that familiar and kind of stupid dramas in every match: killers can easily hit the survivors but have to wait for DH, whether they have it or not; killers can easily hit the injured survivors just got off the hook but choose not to because of BT, whether they have it or not; killers can easily pick up the dying survivors just got off the hook but still choose not to because of DS, whether that have it or not.
I understand some players may think bluffing is kind of mind game, but I don't think these perks are healthy for DBD. DBD already has lots of mind game elements, but all of them are not bluffing. You can call them "tricky" for sure, but not "bluffing" definitely.
Most importantly, these perks make the gaming process not the way it should be. They force killers to give up so many chance even if survivors don't bring them at all. How ridiculous it is?
In my view, these perks should be "visually recognizable," for example, when the survivor A with BT unhooks survivor B, killers should have seen some kind of highlight aura on B, so no one can bluff, and BT still functions well as a anti-tunneling perk. AND, if A doesn't have BT and he or she unhooks B in front of killers, they should PAY.
Lastly, I really exciting about the upcoming 40s perks rebuild, I think the devs are well aware of these problems, and I believe they will fix them this time.
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It didn't get deleted but if you edit too much post get withheld for review. I think to spot ad bots or something.
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We dont hate any of those. We hate dead hard and COH.
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It's because all of these occasionally result in 'stars align' bullcrap moments where they suddenly serve a purpose far beyond their intended use and feel frustrating.
For instance - I'm playing Hag. I hook a Meg, running DS. A David, running BT unhooks her. She proceeds to bodyblock for the David, spamming her flashlight, then runs through all my traps, disarming them. I chase, she jumps into a locker and I either have to leave her and she DS's me. I'm not trying to tunnel, but she got to use both of these offensively and there was literally no way for me to counter them.
Unbreakable...I'm not a slugger, but at super high MMRs, when you're fighting a good SWF (or playing Twins), slugging becomes a necessity and unbreakable occasionally becomes an 'I Win' button.
It's a tough one, because all 3 of these are needed to counter some cheesy killer plays - but can also be mind-blowingly frustrating to face.
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I don't have a problem with DS these days, since using it forces a survivor to be useless to get value. DH is busted with i frames and distance at a survivors discretion. How it has remained virtually unchanged for alll this time is beyond me. UB isnt too bad, but can really kill your pressure late game when you need it most. BT is healthy I think, unless its used to body block you when you try to chase the unhooker. Disable the perk for protection hits and we're all good. I also second the suggestion that there be some form of visual indicator that a survivor has these perks so killers dont have to play mimd games if a suevivor has x of these perks.
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I don’t hate them.
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It’s really simple. People don’t like feeling like they won and then got punished for playing well. An example would be a snowball with Oni or Myers where you have all four survivors on the ground, then all of them have UB. Or when you caught an unhooker in a bad position but then the BT bodyblock brigade comes to butcher your baloney. Or literally any time you win a chase but the survivor has DH. The list goes on. Although I will say that BT and DS are much less frustrating as a player that tries to be nice.
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The game is way too fast and maps are way too safe when you're facing teams that hard split on gens and play efficiently. All of those perks block you from one chance to create a bunch of pressure and turn the game around, so you just lose
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Punishes cheese strats. Given how whiny the killer complainers are, are you really surprised that they're defaulting to tunnelling, camping and excessive slugging? These perks counter that.
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I do my damndest to play fair when I'm killer since I play too much survivor to be a jerk, even if I play more killer, so offering up a more measured read of those three perks:
UB: I only hate it in two cases: the "minute of invincibility" survivors get in endgame collapse if they have both it and DS (which used to be always but they did fix this in non-EGC cases), and the case where it's a coordinated team and I can't pick up because of the coordination...and then I've finally gotten them all down...and now they're all up again and the board is reset, undoing the good play and resetting the board. In both cases it undoes something that I had to actively work for and feels a little cheap by comparison. Otherwise I tend to pick up asap so I don't see it much.
BT: Other than EGC cases, I only dislike it when it's used offensively. By this I mean: I'm chasing someone, they opt to unhook, unhook happens, unhooked person bodyblocks a chokepoint rescuer ran through so now I have to hit them to move on. It's a good play and I recognize that, but the moment that bar appears, I know I'm being branded a tunneler in the two peoples' eyes that didn't take part in the play, and I genuinely hate that. Played verse several streamers who, when I go lurk their VOD to see how my gameplay looks from their perspective, see the bar pop up and just decide I'm an ######### (most recently guy who saw it happen and when I hooked the saved person three hooks later, I "tunneled them out real fast"). Genuinely in those cases I say in my head "go mend then" as I hit them and then try to keep after the rescuer, but the mental branding is there all the same.
DS: Discounting EGC cases again, it's just offensive DS that annoys me. Same as BT. We all know the type: the person who has the perk and therefore they're GOING to use it. Chasing the killer, spamming locker jumps, doing everything in their power to demand they get picked up so they can use their stabby perk. It's one of the few times I'll intentionally slug outside of coordinated teams where I can't or playing Oni or something, because it actually drops the quality of the match for me. Otherwise the last nerf to it fixed a lot of my issues with the perk (doing a gen in your face without you being able to do anything about it even if you had chased and downed someone else while they got saved and chose to get on the gen since I wasn't, you know, tunneling them) and I don't think it's nearly as much of a problem anymore.
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Well for me.
BT - I don't have a problem with this. I don't care if people use it to bodyblock. If someone does an unhook right in my face, I always hit the person who was just unhooked to check for BT. If they have it then great, run off and mend. If they don't have it then great, lay on the ground slugged or waste your UB while I chase down the idiot who did an unhook right in front of me without having BT.
DS - This perk is mostly just annoying in the EGC on the last survivor. What else are you supposed to do at that point? But its also annoying when you don't tunnel people, but still get hit with it because people who have try to get you to activate it by trying to be decoys, bodyblocking, hopping in lockers, and so on. Some are less subtle than others about it, and that's fine, they can stay slugged or waste their UB. But when you've got multiples of the same survivor in the same outfit, or people hop into lockers out of line of sight and you have to decide whether to ignore it or to check because you don't know who's in there.
UB - I don't have a problem with this either. Its just once per match, so slug people early on and they can either waste their UB or lay on the ground slugged being bait to lure someone else out to try to heal them.
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Extremely strong perks on their own, combo extremely well with each other, and can leveraged by a SWF to have even greater/game changing effects. It's like an at-will Pain resonance + pop on a gen but completely in the survivor team's control of when to proc.
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Losing to them or any perk would make you feel frustrated. Ds bt are need as without them killers would just camp and tunnel even more because it would be so easy. Unbreakable is alright I never had a problem with it. Dead hard and maybe iron will are the only perks that are problematic
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They don't bother me, personally. Mostly because I've adapted my playstyle to take advantage of them.
I don't like tunneling in general so DS isn't typically an issue outside of those times where you unwittingly get them on the tail end of their timer and if that happens, and you weren't pressuring them otherwise, it means they spent that time doing nothing.
If someone unhooks in front of me I'll take the hit on the unhooked. If they hedge BT, I chase them off and force them to mend. If they don't, the slug builds pressure while I change to the unhooker.
I don't slug often otherwise, so I don't run into Unbreakable often or, if I do, I don't recognize it. That said in the above scenario I can also potentially fleece their Unbreakable early.
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When I play killer I have no problem with BT or DS.
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I don't hate them. It's just that survivors using the same perks every time starts to feel like they are all just clones of each other and it does grow stale.
However I understand why survivors need and rely on them and I don't blame them for it.
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As killer, I have no problem with any of these perks.
And people using BT to body block are asking for the down they get a few seconds later and can meditate about it during their next hook stage.
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These are facts
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Those perks punish tunneling and camping simple as that. Play some survivor so you see ds is needed and even too weak. If you play actually killer you also know how easy it's tunnel one out without those perks it takes less than 2 mins in the game. Only in endgame they are problems as agains't good survivors is hard to secure kill because of them. But noed solves that most of the time.
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Look at it this way.
At least you as a killer don’t have to “bluff” when you are flat out just Camping a survivor or tunneling them out of the game. It is pretty clear what you are doing. Nobody needs to guess, because you can simply take advantage of a strategy that you can use by simply existing in the match.
These perks exist for this very reason. Because if you took that “I wonder if they have this perk” part. We both know what killers would be doing more of. Camping and Tunneling. Even with the way those perks work now is bad. Why do you think killers love when they find out the survivor didn’t have BT or DS? They have assurance.
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Don't tunnel so you don't have problem unless the one with bt takes protection hit for unhooker which makes me tunnel sometimes.
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I mean for me its not the perks itself but the way they are used by now by good survivor players. For Example
DH: Dead Hard I feel like is mostly fine but it can get super frustrating with certain killers if everyone runs it. Lets say u play against a really good survivor team with each having a couple of 100 hours. Everyone knows how to loop and rarely falls for mindgames. Then finally at some L-T Wall u finally manage to mindgame the survivor, have a brief window to hit them and they just press E and the chase continues for another 90 seconds cause of that. Now multiply this by 12 cause every survivor runs it and ideally u have to hook everyone 3 times before all gens are done. It just gets annoying really fast. Same with Dead harding for distance. Survivors that know how to loop really well are already super hard to catch or to mindgame and if u finally have the chance to catch up they just DH into the next god pallett or the next good loop and ur at it again for another minute.
BT: Is mostly fine but in combination with DS just gets ridicolous sometimes. The survivors unhook someone and u want to go for the unhooker, not the one that got unhooked. So u actually dont want to tunnel. Then the survivor that has BT blocks u from actually chasing the one that unhooked and takes a hit. Now the survivor that has unhooked is long gone so what are u doing now? U can basically only search for a new survivor and with some luck find someone before another 2 gens are done or u chase the obvious target that just bodyblocked you. U chase him, down him and get Dsed. And Voilla u absolutely got nothing out of it.
DS: Is honestly fine on its own but gets used with the other to basically set u checkmate. Someone gets unhooked, u dont want to chase him but now he basically plays human sponge and tries to tank ur every hit with his or her BT, DS und UB combo cause u can do literary nothing then just waste time here. U chase him and down him, u cant pick him up cause of DS, u leave him on the ground: UB saves the day. As a reminder: This perk together with BT was intentionally meant as an anti tunnel perk, so to stop the killer from going after u again and punish him if he does. Also as already mentioned before there are a lot of endgame situations where this perk just feels completely broken. U want to down the survivor u havent downed yet close to the exit gate and the guy that still has DS active throws himself in front of you. Now the exit gate gets opened. Literary the only thing u can do now is watch him crawl out or eat his DS. Feels incredibly frustrating cause u didnt want to tunnel, u wanted the other guy. And now this dude abuses an "anti-tunnel" perk to save his teammate even though u didnt even tunnel.
UB: Most things are said about this one. Fine on its own but used to make the other perks so much stronger.
So in my opinion its not the perks itself but rather the way they are used and their overpresence atm. Most games I play as killer have 4 DHs, at least 3 ds and 1-3 of the other 2 perks. So it just gets boring and frustrating, especially when the survivors already are very good players on their own without these perks. and Noed at least in theory has a counter play if u want to go for all totems with for example counter force just to be save. With these survivor perks u can literary get into some checkmate situations that u just cant do anything about.
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Because they are 2nd chance perks.
On the contrary, why do survivors hate Noed so much?
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I don't have a problem with UB, DS or BT at all when playing killer. If I could make the decision, I would buff DS so it works on both hook states but nerf it in that the perk can't be activated if hooked after the generators are done. That way, it does serve better as an anti tunnel but doesn't rob killers of kills in the end game.
UB, DS and BT help at most once per match (BT more if the killer is hard core camping but that's more the Killer's fault) and some matches not at all. There's no problem with those perks.
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"Because bad Killers get 4k's thanks to it"
Doesn't make any sense tbh.
If the Killer is bad, you have plenty of time to cleanse 5 Totems and finish 5 Generators
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I appreciate your good explanation.
Honestly, I understand survivors hating NOED if it works as huge game changer.
But just because someone equipped NOED, that doesn't mean all game results turned out to be 3~4K.
Still with NOED, 3~4 escape can happen.
Putting this example into survivor 2nd chance perks, it is easy to understand why killers hate them.
Survivor 2nd chance perks are not always critical but sometimes they bring huge differences.
Nowadays, they are meta perks and feels bad to see same loadouts over and over.
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I don't really care about any of that stuff. The only survivor perk that bothers me is dead hard.
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DS and UB are fine, players get snotty because they don't account for them when slugging or picking up and then caught off guard that's all.
BT gets leveraged aggressively typically to body block killers going for other hits. The players that do this are often the ones who get most put out if you target them straight off hook, but they are running into your face what are you supposed to do?
That's where BT gets annoying because its a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, where you eat it giving the unhooker time to escape and then either tunnel the BT down or go for a protracted chase after the unhooker.
The former gets a lot of salt/tantrums and is subject to DS, while the latter is often the less efficient play.
This is why BT base kit isn't good idea because all it does is incentivize farming, aggressive body blocking and generally more obnoxious/bad play from survivors. It also won't do a damn thing about the amount of camping because killers are still going to camp if they can't get efficient chases.
Chases will just be less efficient as built in BT will guarantee a head start every post hook chase, making camping for the 2nd stage still more valuable than chasing in a number of scenarios.
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Cause it ferthers the "us V them" mentality
Plus some Survivors just want a "GGEZ" match... you know the type
But anyway...
BT: bodyblocking the Killer to get hit
DS: yes 60 seconds of not doing much is a benefit to Killers but getting healed not deactivating it is somewhat frustrating (IMO)
DH: it all depends on who the Killer is and the Survivors mind-set
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most of them hate it cause makes the free tunnel harder. thats the only reason.
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Only DH annoys me. To the point that I don't want to play the game anymore until it's fixed.
BT, DS, UB... it's rare that these perks can get on my nerves.
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I love BT and DS and use these perks myself, no issues with them.
However UB is busted and needs a nerf, it is way too much of an game changer without any requirements or trade off.
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"Every time I see a post about a surv complaining about a killer perk like noed, I always see killers bring up the same four perks as a counter response."
"My point is these perks are always called unfair for killers during any discourse about broken or cheap perks when they have counter play and, depending on the killer, hardly work."
"They’re in the game to make a certain game play style more fair for the other side"
The whole reason they are used as counter arguments is because the same conditions apply to them. Take your initial example NOED a perk that helps against gen rushing. It has clear counter plays from doing all 5 totems, simply leaving with 3 people or cleansing a single totem in the end game.
These killer perks are in the game to make a certain play style more fair for their side, just as the survivor perks are there to make it more fair for them.
Frankly your whole post comes across as a clear example of a player that doesn't play killer and just survivor. DS, BT and UB are extremely powerful perks that by many are seen as quite fair and in the same ball park as the killer equivalents. Dead hard is the most biggest out there in terms of strongest perk with no clear example of similar strength, it is the best perk in the game from either side.
Seriously, how much have you played killer?
Like don't get me wrong, BT and DH make it into nearly all my survivor builds. Just as Corrupt Intervention is a fairly common one on my killer builds. There is no fault in using them, but yeah they are simply the other side of the coin.
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Usually, it's because they use unfun tactics (tunneling/camping/slugging to win), so they get mad when their plan is flawed by perks that are designed to counter those exact playstyles.
The only survivor perk, in my opinion, that is 'overpowered' is DH because I agree a lot of survivors abuse it and it's boring seeing it in every match.
The other meta perks (BT, DS, UB) are all contextual and will only activate under certain conditions. If as a killer you've been hit by BT or DS, chances are you're either deliberately (or accidentally) tunneling a survivor.
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BT is fine, the only problem is when someone take advantage of having BT to tank a hit on the unhooker (then if it's attention you want, I'll gladly bestow this gift to you).
I totally despise DS with a burning passion when we get to EGC (outside of EGC I don't really care, except when it's paired with unbreakable), there's nothing more infuriating when you have a bad game and the only person you could kill is slowly crawling to the door and you can't pick them up because they have DS for 1 minute.
then if you let them ds you, they dead hard at the exit gate, never to be seen again.
I also don't really like this locker - DS strat, DS should be disabled if you interact with a locker
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For some it counters their playstyle.
For some, it frustrates them.
Not all Killer’s have the tools or range to deal with Dead Hard.
DS & BT have forever & always been infamous due to the fact it counters tunneling, or proxying, which may be the only adequate playstyle for the character they’re playing.
Now, I’m not saying some of the complaints towards these perks aren’t just a case “of getting good”, because in some cases, it is.
But not all. The problem with the state of game design is that normally healthy behavior, when combined into one amalgamation of meta makes the game incredibly hard to sit through, & just all around problematic. However, there’s a point to be stated that Survivors are not at fault for the performance of these perks, they’re but utilizing the tools they have at hand.
It’s a blameless situation. You can’t blame someone for wanting a route to victory, especially with how stressed it is on the forum. The problem lies within the fundamental, unavoidable aspects of the game’s design. Camping & Tunneling are inevitable, however the only way to respond in a proper manner to these is running the meta, or taking it on the chin.
And the latter isn’t very fun, either. Same could be said for Killer’s.
It’s a heavily nuanced topic that I understand the criticism for, though.
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