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Bird lady has too silly story for a killer. Anyway to change it?
I think Artist is great by concept, but her story and motivation as a KILLER is terrible. She's just some victim, not a killer.
While no one is paying attention, can I suggest to add some points to the lore, like when she's tied to a chair and crows kills every one, SHE FELT IMMENSE satisfaction and gone on a killing spree, murdering everyone in her wake, until fog embraced her. At least something like that, so she could be felt as a killer, not a survivor.
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I've mentioned that her story isn't good for a killer in the past. Then again she also mechanically isn't a very interesting killer as well so they could just throw the design away and that would be great.
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Sorry, cannot agree with notion about "dull killer". I loved playing her before Onryo, and she's in my 5 most favorite killers. That is subjective opition, of course.
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Her story is about one step removed from Candyman. He was also a victim, an artist killed by an angry mob whose hand was cut off, and after he was brutally murdered he too became a killer. It's a standard horror trope also see in folklore. For example, Japanese onryo, who are often traumatized wronged women who kill as ghosts.
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Maybe. But (as mostly an western user) I understood that she was a victim, and before death she took revenge on her attackers. It's not a killer, it's survivor in my book. Many survivors in comparison more killers that she is. And she stands next to beings like Freddy, Ghostface, Oni, Nemesis, Pyramidhead and such.
I think she should have some "maniacal" killer vibe.
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They are some similarities, but overall her story just isn't good and DBD keeps adding female killers with overly tragic backstories. It's over done specifically in this game.
Huntress, Nurse, Plague, Spirit, Artist, Hag, and the Twins all have these horrifyingly tragic backstories, but women can have more diverse entries into the entity's world than being a victim of violence or essentially just taken/tricked by the entity.
There is something to be said when least tragic figures are Amanda from Saw and maybe Huntress.
If we can't get female killers that are just as cool as Trickster then I don't know at this point then I don't know what to tell you. Loss and victimization is only one route, but women are capable of maniacal evil without any of that as a catalyst same as any eldritch horror or male murderer. You can even tell some interesting stories for a female killer when you position them as someone who has always been in control and powerful.
With the Artist her story doesn't even make sense in some places.
Why does the entity specifically want her?
Why would a businessman hire an artist whose made a show of being very anti-capitalist?
Why did the entity feel the need to turn the Artist basically into bird?
Now granted the entity is supposed to be an esoteric existence that doesn't necessarily make sense to the human mind. That said, I find it low key infuriating that an Artist concept was squandered on a killer who was completely robbed of their agency and potentially never really had any agency to begin with considering it seems like her entire life was engineered by the entity to keep her going through tragic losses for its amusement. It's not her story at that point, it's the entity's. This could have been an exciting and colorful killer yet this is what we got. A killer who was robbed of her voice, her color, her agency, and ultimately her chance to be exciting. The best thing about her is the map and honestly if you deleted Artist and told me the map was a made for Plague or Pinhead I'd almost believe you be cause simply put, it's just what the entity wanted to give her rather than something meaning for Artist herself.
I will say again, it isn't good.
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I don't think we should rewrite stories just because people don't like them.
If we were to rewrite stories everytime because someone disliked one, then we would be rewriting them forever.
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That's completely not true. We don't want to rewrite because "someone don't like them", we want to improve them because now they have huge holes in it.
But if lore is totalitaristic area and word of developers is the law, and community have to obey or else, why this subforum exist anyway?
Just to be clear, I care about Artist and I like her concept. I just wish she was a killer, not some sorry victim with deux-ex-machina. For example, I don't care about Legion, I hate the idea of some kids with knives, standing near mutants, demons, ghosts and aliens. But personally I care about artist, and not only me it seems, and just want to her to be better lorewise. And this was just a suggestion.
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But that's the thing, what you call an improvement will not be considered an improvement by everyone, and so once a lore has been rewritten then someone else want to rewrite that rewritten lore another way because they think it would be better, and then someone else wants to rewrite it again, etc.
Also the base lore for character is just an overview of the lore itself for that character, it does not go full depth on details in the lore for that character, that's why we have the tomes to give us more details and explaination on things and fill out the holes of the character that was missing from the base lore. It's also why i rather have more tomes for killers like Hag and artist because there is room for more exploration of the character than what is currently shown and told.
If we're going to have more evil female killers like Julie, Susie and Amanda then i rather have newer characters be that instead of changing existing character's lore just for the sake of it.
I never said that the lore was totalitaristic, if the devs changes it because the community wants it then i'm not gonna stop it, i just don't believe it's the right move and i would frankly be a bit bummed about it.
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Ok, i'm not gonna argue that, I just wanted to point out the thing that "bothered" me from her release, that she's not a killer. I hope she'll get motivation in chapter books, but, let me say clear, the 90% of players won't be bothered by dwelling into books lore. Most of them will stop at killer description lore. And I believe 90% is optimistic estimation, in reality it is much much higher.
As a regular average player, I see her as another victim of circumstance, not a killer. Amanda is a killer. Sadako is a killer. Rin is a killer. Anya is a killer. Carmina? Not in a slightest.
Anyway, it's all was just a suggestion.
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Heh, I was actually writing up a response about there being too many tragic females and wanting a sadistic female killer like Trickster.
I agree with a lot of what you said.
The Artist is either a poorly written love letter to Candyman, or she was a prototype for Candyman but BHVR couldn't get the license so they changed bits and pieces to make her different. Unfortunately, they butchered the emotional depth of Candyman's backstory; I feel nothing when reading hers. But what OP wants, just tacking on "she felt immense satisfaction killing everyone," wouldn't improve her story at all. It needs more than that. It either needs to create an emotional connection with the reader, or BHVR needs to scrap the "born victim" part and have her be something more like a sadistic serial killer, murdering and painting with the blood of corrupt politicians. Have some fun with it instead of trying (and failing) to manipulate people's emotions.
Artist's backstory as a victim could be fine if it were better written. There's nothing inherently wrong with it the way OP is suggesting. Glancing at her lore, I'm reminded how much I hate the way the majority of lore is written. Full of unnecessary, clunky details and attempts at style, long yet lacking the characterization or depth to make it interesting. I'd prefer lore that's like a couple sentences long to what we get now.
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Yes i'm aware alot of people don't bother with the tomes, however i do think there are enough who do and that it's more than what you assume it to be, but without statistics to back up how many then it's anyone's guess really.
Yes i'm aware it was just a suggestion and if you want her to be more like a killer, then more power to you. I was just giving my thoughts on the suggestion you were providing and the idea of rewritting or adding some more elements to carmina's lore and to the extend rewriting of any lore in general, which i am honestly 100% against and don't think is needed at all, because i think creating consistency between killers and survivors by make most or all killers evil prior before being taken and most or all survivors good people prior before being taken would drag the quality of the lore down.
We may not agree with one another and that's perfectly fine, we can just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Post edited by Smoe on1 -
That's the ideal scenario if lore was rewritten to be more breathtaking. I was suggesting minor miniscule tiny detail just to fix it a little and give food for thought. Just want her to be a killer.
Now, if we keep lore as it is, we could easily move her to survivor roster, and no one feel the difference lorewise.
I have lorewise questions for so called "killers" like Adiris or Charlotte (they not that bad lorewise, but still not worth to be bothered by Entity), but Carmina should be definetely saved. Just suggesting.
P.S.
As I mentioned before, I also think Legion is a terrible concept (lore-wise, not mechanicaly), but they are way past of point-of-no-return.
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mansplain me harder daddy
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There is nothing about me that is a man, hun.
So please call me mommy while I momsplain to you.
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you condescend like a man.. so..
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So stating my stance on the topic is condescension or is it my responding to your snide remark?
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A lot of killers are defined by a super-tragic past. The Entity grabs them because it sees someone it can manipulate and, if need be, the Entity tortures them into killing for it. I don't know who all specifically the Entity had to torture or trick into killing. I know Trapper was one of the ones it tortured. I think Adiris was tricked into believing the Entity is her god, iirc.
I hate Legion's backstory. Edgy teens who killed one person. Woo. Would've been better if it started with them somehow accidentally killing one person (a car accident, a prank gone wrong, whatever), and then Frank goes darker and darker and wants to kill again and between peer pressure and the way teenage delinquency is contagious, the four of them together murder a few people. A group of four teenagers who seem normal on the outside but become twisted on the inside, and the town blames the disappearances/murders on devil music and kids dressed in all black because those were the common scapegoats. It's not groundbreaking or anything, but it's an example of what could've been done, and I prefer something like that to the trite story we ended up with. The Tome entries with Julie only made it worse. I dunno, to me them drinking and partying and stealing stop signs doesn't give them depth as characters; it makes them boring. Their reason for doing what they do is basically a combination of feeling misunderstood and of being bored. That's not engaging. It'd be better if they awoke a darkness inside or if killing were a way to relieve the stress and pressure placed on them by overbearing perfection-expecting parents or some such thing.
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and like that, this argument has lost all ground
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No way to really know until her tome comes out which could be in 5 months or could another year or longer.
But yeah there does need to be some propensity to fo violence in her story I agree cuz as of right now it reads like a survivor bio.
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I wish they'd stop making female characters have stories of physical torture.
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Very much this. I didn't know how Saw went but watched because I liked Pig as a concept for a killer and was kind of disappointed that she basically went down typical female character routes fixated on petty revenge rather then being a menacing figure whether she did the trials fairly or otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Amanda being there because she is at least a variance between other female killers aside from maybe Julie because Susie also being a bully victim is most likely going to have a tragic story for how she fell in with the Legion. Still, there is a definite lack of female characters who are just ruthlessly evil and there's loads of ways to do it without relying on envy or tragedy. Greed is a theme I'd probably go for if it was up to me.
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To make her lore good - they have to incorperate the following aspects:
- Her relationship with crows
- Her unique use of art
- Her lost appendages
- Her desire to harm others
At this point, the lore doesn't clearly explain WHY she has such a close fascination with crows - and what about her emanates. If she was an ornithologist, or a birdwatcher, or her family crest was a raven - and she held an absolute obsession with corvids - it would make sense.
The lore speaks very vaguely of Carmina's art, but it doesn't quite seem earned or relevant. Her propensity for art seems completely overshadowed by her lifetime of grief, political activism, and dying at the hands of angry cronies. While Trickster's lore is wrapped up in music, Huntress with being a feral woman, 'Slinger with invention and tinkering, Oni with battle and honor, Blight with chemistry and drugs... the Artist does not seem to have lore that creates a confident support of her own artistry. We see the Trickster's flamboyant showmanship in his demeanor and dress - and his chase music alone would let many people believe that the character is some sort of pop star... WITHOUT reading the lore. Deathslinger has a mechanical brace and a limp - it's easy to see that he uses tech to aid his shortcomings. Oni looks and breathes his niche - you can tell he's a samurai by looking at him. Artist? If nobody told you that she was renown for her art - it would be impossible to tell in-game, and it certainly wouldn't be made much easier through her lore. It's hard to tell if the name was a poor fit for the character (Like Trickster) or if the lore is just a poor fit for the name and gameplay (Like Wraith)
Her tongue and arms are lost in the last few sentences of her lore, it's not a very well used element for her character. For instance, her losing her tongue early on in her life through abuse, accident, or assault - it would make her more intriguing as and artist - using art in interesting ways to speak the words that are hard for her to say without a tongue, and having to get creative due to her lack of hands. It honestly feels like her lore was written and the character model was made - but they realized that they never explained the severed limbs, so the writers wrote a quick couple of sentences to include it. You know the lore is bad when the wraith's bell is more integrated in his lore than the artist's ink arms are incorporated in her own.
Carmina has no desire to hurt others. She has basically the same general lore as some survivors - she's an activist that stands up for what she believes in, and has endured many hardships to get where she is today. By her lore - she should be a survivor, not a killer. What makes no sense is how sympathetic and caring she was up until her final moments, which is a shame - because it creates a non-sequitur for the story. Spirit was a good person in life, but we understand why she would kill others in blind rage - that's her lore. We understand why the 'Slinger would hunt others for the Entity - he's a vengeful man. We understand why Plague hurts others - she is a slave to her devotion. We understand why Nurse wants to hurt others - after all she's been through, her mind is lost to avarice. Artist though? She had a rough life and overcame it - but was murdered because she was outspoken about making the world better for others - she was killed for her altruism and is now a brutal killer.
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